Is Capitalism unChristian?

  • Thread starter Thread starter tonyrey
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
An ad hominem weakens your case for unbridled capitalism. You obviously represent those who don’t belong to the 20% in poverty and have no compassion for those who do - which is certainly not a Christian attitude. If you ever fall on hard times - and no one is immune to misfortune - you will change your tune…
Too late, that already happened. My house burned down and I lost everything. I got up, dusted myself off and went right back to work and recovered nicely, thank you very much. I didn’t whine and run to the government either.
 
In a capitalist system many people lack the opportunity to work for themselves and even if they do they face an uphill battle against those who have power and wealth.

haaretz.com/world-news/1.546450

google.co.uk/search?q=how+rich+nations+exploit+developing+nations&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&meta=cr%3DcountryUK|countryGB&gws_rd=ssl

listverse.com/2014/02/14/10-shocking-ways-the-west-abuses-developing-countries/
It’s not lack of opportunity, it’s the lack of a work ethic. I mean really, if the socialist state is going to pay you to do nothing, why not take advantage, right? By the way, just read today that in merry old England, if a man has several wives he can get more benefits. Isn’t that great?
 
Your “small way” sums up your view perfectly. People cannot live on crumbs thrown to them by those who live in luxury. There is a parable about Dives and Lazarus…
No, you are wrong. To the Christian the mere act of helping an old woman cross the street is as momentous an action as giving every citizen a million dollars. Your Christian thought process is the one that is out of kilter, not mine. Money, money, money and power, power, power that some people in this world have is your only concern. Forget about this place down here and set your sights on the next world where the true treasure lies.
 
The terms “gobbledegook” and “whining” not only commit the fallacy of petitio principii, they also violate the forum rule of courtesy and are certainly out of place on a Christian forum…
Oh come on now, you are a big boy now deal with it. My words were tame compared to others I could have used.
 
Facts are more significant than opinions. Being the fourth richest nation with the highest prison population in the world and 20% of its citizens living in poverty is hardly a recommendation. Similar proportions apply to the UK under the Conservative government with the exception of the number of prisoners and the UN investigation into the violation of human rights of disabled people who have committed suicide after being deprived of their benefits…
You claim to be so concerned about disabled people now I will ask you, how many do you personally help on a daily basis? Why don’t you go out and start some non-profit entity with private funds that you collect from other people to help them? The fact is you leftists never do that, you just run to the government for more and more handouts and then raise holy hell when the money train ends, or continually say they are not doing enough. Stop depending on the government teat - private enterprise used by someone with the gumption to get things done can work so much better and accomplish so much more.
 
Two friends I know had one son, then divorced. She took the boy and went back to England to raise him. Dad visited each year and son came to the US each summer. When the boy was fourteen, he came to live with dad. He went to High School, got a part time job delivering the local paper on his bike once a week after school, played a few sports, investigated colleges, but in the end, after graduation he decided that he just wanted to go back to England and get on the dole as it was so much easier. Dad was disappointed, tried everything to help his son, but the boy did go back to England, get on the dole, meet a girl, have a child and to this day, has never held a job again. He is now in his forties and his kid is having kids. Meager existence for all with no prospects of improvement. Pretty bleak outlook.
Life on the dole isn’t so easy now as it used to be. People have to prove they’re looking for a job and even have to work for nothing:

yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/20m-windfall-for-emma-harrison-as-she-exits-welfare-to-work-firm-a4e-1-7231725#ixzz3xFn8HQnk
 
The terms “gobbledegook” and “whining” not only commit the fallacy of petitio principii, they also violate the forum rule of courtesy and are certainly out of place on a Christian forum…
To substitute abuse and sarcasm for rational argument reveals more about your personality than anything else. You have still failed to justify the diabolical injustice of victimising people who are poor through no fault of their own. You assume everyone is able to work and ignore the plight of the homeless, unemployed in towns and cities where there are no jobs, students deprived of their maintenance grants and fees increased to £9000 a year, single parents who have to look after children, old people on a meagre pension, the physically disabled and the mentally ill…
 
Your “small way” sums up your view perfectly. People cannot live on crumbs thrown to them by those who live in luxury. There is a parable about Dives and Lazarus…
Non sequitur. The fact remains that people cannot live on crumbs thrown to them by those who live in luxury.
 
Facts are more significant than opinions. Being the fourth richest nation with the highest prison population in the world and 20% of its citizens living in poverty is hardly a recommendation. Similar proportions apply to the UK under the Conservative government with the exception of the number of prisoners and the UN investigation into the violation of human rights of disabled people who have committed suicide after being deprived of their benefits…
Your assumption that I have done nothing and am doing nothing to help people in need is false. I certainly do not have to justify myself to you simply because you are implying that I am a hypocrite in lieu of your failure to admit that there is diabolical injustice and inequality in the US, the UK and elsewhere.The very fact that I am refuting your fallacies about capitalism is already helping to undermine the system which increases the wealth of the poor at the expense of the rich. Moral corruption contains the seeds of its own destruction. Sooner or later pride, greed, vanity, complacency and selfishness incur their own punishment like every other vice…
 
Your “small way” sums up your view perfectly. People cannot live on crumbs thrown to them by those who live in luxury. There is a parable about Dives and Lazarus…No, you are wrong.
That is another ploy of the capitalist. Distract attention from injustice on earth to evade responsibility for **condoning **the policies that inflict needless suffering on innocent people who have nothing to deserve such punishment. According to Jesus how we live **in this world **determines how we live in the next. He was on the side of the poor not the members of the Establishment who were proud of their achievements. He was certainly not a capitalist but a revolutionary…
 
It’s not lack of opportunity, it’s the lack of a work ethic. I mean really, if the socialist state is going to pay you to do nothing, why not take advantage, right? By the way, just read today that in merry old England, if a man has several wives he can get more benefits. Isn’t that great?
It is obvious that capitalist propaganda is just as widespread in the US as the UK, probably more so because the media are dominated by tycoons like Rupert Murdoch and, of course, Donald Trump. The Tory slogan that they represent “strivers not shirkers” is a smear tactic that fools many people - until they fall on hard times and grasp the cruelty of the ruling class. Even the self-employed have no guarantee they will succeed in a system where they have to compete with ruthless big business. In fact the odds are stacked against them, many go bankrupt and are not covered by National Insurance like other workers. The law of the jungle is alive and kicking until the next financial crisis when the public will be compelled by the government to bail out the banks who cheat them when things are going well.
 
It is obvious that capitalist propaganda is just as widespread in the US as the UK, probably more so because the media are dominated by tycoons like Rupert Murdoch and, of course, Donald Trump. The Tory slogan that they represent “strivers not shirkers” is a smear tactic that fools many people - until they fall on hard times and grasp the cruelty of the ruling class. Even the self-employed have no guarantee they will succeed in a system where they have to compete with ruthless big business. In fact the odds are stacked against them, many go bankrupt and are not covered by National Insurance like other workers. The law of the jungle is alive and kicking until the next financial crisis when the public will be compelled by the government to bail out the banks who cheat them when things are going well.
At last there is hope now that the greed and selfishness in big business is being challenged from within by men and women who are appalled by the needless suffering that capitalism is causing throughout the world. Sooner or later truth and justice prevail in spite of the deep-rooted lust for power and wealth in human nature. There is no such thing as benevolent capitalism because it is based on ruthless competition in which it doesn’t pay to have moral principles if one is to be successful. Mrs Thatcher didn’t care about how many communities she destroyed to obtain her goal of destroying the Welfare State. No wonder her victims cheered when she died… independent.co.uk/voices/comment/one-of-the-biggest-battles-against-the-evils-of-capitalism-is-happening-in-the-last-place-youd-10125895.html
 
That is another ploy of the capitalist. Distract attention from injustice on earth to evade responsibility for **condoning **the policies that inflict needless suffering on innocent people who have nothing to deserve such punishment. According to Jesus how we live **in this world **determines how we live in the next. He was on the side of the poor not the members of the Establishment who were proud of their achievements. He was certainly not a capitalist but a revolutionary…
And Jesus never looked to any government here on earth to change things, that was to be done by each individual one heart at a time. It was Jesus who preached that our concern should be of the next world, not this one.

The socialist/leftist cause you espouse is certainly not better than the capitalism you hate. The big problem with socialism is that there are fewer people at the top, and make no mistake the socialist leaders live lives of luxury. They send their children to top notch schools and they get the best private health care around. Your Mr. Corbyn I am sure does not stand in the line at the NHS for his medical treatments.

Remember, socialism is for the people, not the socialists.
 
Your assumption that I have done nothing and am doing nothing to help people in need is false. I certainly do not have to justify myself to you simply because you are implying that I am a hypocrite in lieu of your failure to admit that there is diabolical injustice and inequality in the US, the UK and elsewhere.The very fact that I am refuting your fallacies about capitalism is already helping to undermine the system which increases the wealth of the poor at the expense of the rich. Moral corruption contains the seeds of its own destruction. Sooner or later pride, greed, vanity, complacency and selfishness incur their own punishment like every other vice…
You are refuting nothing about capitalism, just spouting words that only you and your fellow travelers want to hear. Yes my friend, I am keenly aware that there is diabolical injustice on this earth - but that is part and parcel of what this world really is.

The fact is, that the very machine you now use comes from the capitalist system, as does just about everything else you buy or use. You are the biggest of hypocrites, decrying the system but then making use of it’s benefits.

But what I am really pointing out is that people like you are always complaining about some injustice somewhere, but never do anything about it. You just want to drop off the problem to some government entity somewhere and then forget about it. Your conscience is relieved because “you care”, but in the end you folks do nothing. And when I suggest that you and like minded people pool your own private monies to fix whatever injustice you care about, you continue babbling on about the evils of capitalism. Unbelievable!
 
Life on the dole isn’t so easy now as it used to be. People have to prove they’re looking for a job and even have to work for nothing:

yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/20m-windfall-for-emma-harrison-as-she-exits-welfare-to-work-firm-a4e-1-7231725#ixzz3xFn8HQnk
Glad to hear that some safeguards have been put in place. However, you failed to comment on the fact that an able bodies young man CHOSE to return to England to receive pay for no work rather than help himself when he had the opportunity! He is not an anomaly, rather a representative of the prevalent attitude. That attitude is the problem.
 
You are refuting nothing about capitalism, just spouting words that only you and your fellow travelers want to hear. Yes my friend, I am keenly aware that there is diabolical injustice on this earth - but that is part and parcel of what this world really is.

The fact is, that the very machine you now use comes from the capitalist system, as does just about everything else you buy or use. You are the biggest of hypocrites, decrying the system but then making use of it’s benefits.

But what I am really pointing out is that people like you are always complaining about some injustice somewhere, but never do anything about it. You just want to drop off the problem to some government entity somewhere and then forget about it. Your conscience is relieved because “you care”, but in the end you folks do nothing. And when I suggest that you and like minded people pool your own private monies to fix whatever injustice you care about, you continue babbling on about the evils of capitalism. Unbelievable!
Facts are more significant than words. Capitalist governments are in league with individuals like Rupert Murdoch who dominate the media and with corporations like Amazon in whose warehouses people are treated like slaves and forced to work under constant surveillance and appalling working conditions:

independent.co.uk/news/business/news/amazon-devastating-expose-accuses-internet-retailer-of-oppressive-and-callous-attitude-to-staff-10458159.html

No decent self-respecting person would ever vote for a party that sponsors and condones slave labour. In 2010 David Cameron appointed Emma Harrison as his “family champion” to help get long-term unemployed people back into work. She earned SIX MILLION POUNDS a year for organising schemes for unemployed people to work in supermarkets FOR NO PAY.

yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/20m-windfall-for-emma-harrison-as-she-exits-welfare-to-work-firm-a4e-1-7231725#ixzz3xFn8HQnk

Meanwhile Osborne is ensuring that the disabled who need social services will lose EIGHT THOUSAND POUNDS a year. “diabolical” is the only adequate description of the injustice, inequality and plutocracy being established by the Tories. There is no longer a government of the people, by the people, for the people but a government of the rich, by the rich, for the rich. The top government jobs include at least 14 millionaires and the future heirs of family empires. No doubt it’s the same in the US. In the last five years the Consevatives have succeeded in doubling their wealth - and also **doubling **the national debt. A very strange coincidence but £1.5 trillion isn’t worth considering, is it? :rolleyes:

BTW “it’s” is a common mistake but** it’s** not a possessive pronoun. It means “it is”.
 
Glad to hear that some safeguards have been put in place. However, you failed to comment on the fact that an able bodies young man CHOSE to return to England to receive pay for no work rather than help himself when he had the opportunity! He is not an anomaly, rather a representative of the prevalent attitude. That attitude is the problem.
Your knowledge of the UK is obviously defective. “a representative of the prevalent attitude”! What evidence do you have to support your generalisation? None whatsoever. The real problem is that even when people find work they cannot support themselves or their families. Zero hour contracts and abysmal wages make sure of that - as well as excessive rents, agency fees, train fares, gas/electricity tariffs, child care and house prices.
 
And Jesus never looked to any government here on earth to change things, that was to be done by each individual one heart at a time. It was Jesus who preached that our concern should be of the next world, not this one.
Jesus condemned the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who exploited the poor and the tax collectors who cheated their victims. His concern was for everyone who is a victim of greed and injustice.The parable of Dives and Lazarus is a warning to the rich to change their ways here and now, not in the next world. His focus was not on heaven and hell but the misery and suffering that surrounded him everywhere he went. He supported the underdog not the rich and powerful and told us “Blessed are the poor…”
The socialist/leftist cause you espouse is certainly not better than the capitalism you hate. The big problem with socialism is that there are fewer people at the top, and make no mistake the socialist leaders live lives of luxury. They send their children to top notch schools and they get the best private health care around. Your Mr. Corbyn I am sure does not stand in the line at the NHS for his medical treatments.
You obviously know very little about Jeremy Corbyn. Read more about him before jumping to conclusions.
Remember, socialism is for the people, not the socialists.
Having lived in capitalist and socialist states (France, Spain, Nigeria, Tanzania, Kenya, Jamaica, Algeria and India) I don’t need to be told the difference! None of them has been at either extreme but without exaggeration the present regime in the UK is the worst I have encountered in a country considerably more prosperous than the others - except France where the poor are not so oppressed as they are here even though there are virtual ghettos. There is, of course, appalling poverty in India but in a vast subcontinent that is to be expected. Corruption is rife but there is no state policy that deliberately victimises the homeless, children, unemployed, students, single parents, disabled and mentally ill. There are few benefits but they are never reduced or taken away as far as I know. That privilege is reserved for those in my “homeland”. Even that word seems ironic because for many people now this is no longer home but a torture chamber in which they exist without hope. I don’t envy the rich; I pity them because they have never known what it is to be deprived and suffer. They are incapable of compassion because they live in another world. My mother suffered a great deal when she was bringing up her two children on her own without any help from the State but she was far happier than the rich I used to serve as a floor waiter in a five star hotel. She took nothing for granted and during the last months of her life she kept saying “God is good”. You can understand why I’m in favour of a Welfare State.

I remember when it was established by the Labour party in 1948 with doctors, hospital treatment, dentists, opticians, ambulances, midwives and health visitors becoming absolutely free for everyone! No one had to worry about being deprived of essential services but since the Tories have been in power people are being deprived of even the basic necessities of life and it is only a question of time before they finish the task Mrs Thatcher began - if they have the opportunity. Her father was a shopkeeper and she treated the nation like a shop. After becoming an MP she voted to restore caning as a punishment (as I found out the hard way for regularly arriving late at school when I received “three of the best”). It is not for nothing she was called the “Iron Lady”.Her pernicious influence still exists in this country and my experiences have enabled me to assess the relative merits of undiluted capitalism, undiluted socialism and a democracy in which national institutions, co-operatives and small businesses play a large part - thereby avoiding the unChristian excesses of a plutocracy, a Communist dictatorship and unregulated transnational corporations…
 
Jesus condemned the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who exploited the poor and the tax collectors who cheated their victims. His concern was for everyone who is a victim of greed and injustice.The parable of Dives and Lazarus is a warning to the rich to change their ways here and now, not in the next world. His focus was not on heaven and hell but the misery and suffering that surrounded him everywhere he went. He supported the underdog not the rich and powerful and told us “Blessed are the poor…” Etc.
In other words, you’re not so much in favor of full-bore Socialism as you are having a reliable safety net. This is quite understandable. Unfortunately, as you quite well know, those who abused the safety nets are the reasons why the safety nets have been taken away (and why the small nets that are left are endangered). Safety nets were never created for able-bodied people to stay on them forever - they were primarily made for people who were too old to work or otherwise unable to work, generally due to disability. And they were made for people whose jobs did not pay them enough to feed their families to be able to buy food or rent an apartment. But what has happened is that, in a very few cases, people who did not need the safety nets took advantage of them - and were used as examples of the “rule” rather than the “exception”.

But honestly, it’s not capitalism per se that is the problem - it’s more crony capitalism that is the problem. One of the best indicators of a thriving economy for the masses is (a) the amount of startups in general, and (b) the percentage of those startups that remain viable businesses after 1, 5, and 10 years. In the past 20-40 years in the US, the trends on both have been declining, as the current landscape favors multinational corporations to the detriment of small businesses. First, banks often are gun-shy about giving loans to new small business owners, which means that it is often difficult, if not nearly impossible, for many would-be business owners to get the capital they need to open. Second, if the business owner does get a loan, he/she must turn a profit pretty much immediately to have money to start paying back not only the business loan but his/her other obligations (mortgage, property taxes, auto loans, credit cards, etc.). If such a profit isn’t made, he/she is at risk of losing everything. In addition, many regulations that are ostensibly meant to reel in corporate greed often end up hurting small businesses more than corporations (and very often benefitting multinational corporations to the detriment of small businesses) - due to back-room lobbying and deal-making. One of the most obvious examples of this is seen in the US tax code, which has one of the highest business taxes in the world, but, due to many a loophole, allows multinational corporations to pay little to nothing.

As such, most would-be business owners nowadays either:

(a) don’t get a chance to open their own businesses because they can’t get startup money,

(b) actually do open a business, but are forced closed before they have a chance to prosper, or

(c) simply don’t even bother to try as they see the risk (the possibility of losing everything if they don’t turn a profit quickly and consistently) as too great, especially if they have families to feed.

This type of thing was actually why so many middle-income Americans were angry when TARP (the big bank bailout bill) was passed in 2008, at the height of the financial crisis that led to the “Great Recession”. It was crony capitalism at its worst, with the big banks pretty much telling the Secretary of the Treasury that if they were not compensated for their bad behavior and decision making, they (the big banks) would collapse, making the entire economy falter, as the big banks were “too big to fail”. The Treasurer and Secretary of the Treasury came to Congress, and demanded that they bail out the banks. When the House of Representatives revolted and tried to refuse to pass the legislation, the stock indexes crashed even more. Yet every day Americans who had been affected by the bad behavior and decision making of the banks were left with both the disastrous consequences of the banking decisions - along with the bill for bailing out the banks.
 
In other words, you’re not so much in favor of full-bore Socialism as you are having a reliable safety net. This is quite understandable. Unfortunately, as you quite well know, those who abused the safety nets are the reasons why the safety nets have been taken away (and why the small nets that are left are endangered). Safety nets were never created for able-bodied people to stay on them forever - they were primarily made for people who were too old to work or otherwise unable to work, generally due to disability. And they were made for people whose jobs did not pay them enough to feed their families to be able to buy food or rent an apartment. But what has happened is that, in a very few cases, people who did not need the safety nets took advantage of them - and were used as examples of the “rule” rather than the “exception”.

But honestly, it’s not capitalism per se that is the problem - it’s more crony capitalism that is the problem. One of the best indicators of a thriving economy for the masses is (a) the amount of startups in general, and (b) the percentage of those startups that remain viable businesses after 1, 5, and 10 years. In the past 20-40 years in the US, the trends on both have been declining, as the current landscape favors multinational corporations to the detriment of small businesses. First, banks often are gun-shy about giving loans to new small business owners, which means that it is often difficult, if not nearly impossible, for many would-be business owners to get the capital they need to open. Second, if the business owner does get a loan, he/she must turn a profit pretty much immediately to have money to start paying back not only the business loan but his/her other obligations (mortgage, property taxes, auto loans, credit cards, etc.). If such a profit isn’t made, he/she is at risk of losing everything. In addition, many regulations that are ostensibly meant to reel in corporate greed often end up hurting small businesses more than corporations (and very often benefitting multinational corporations to the detriment of small businesses) - due to back-room lobbying and deal-making. One of the most obvious examples of this is seen in the US tax code, which has one of the highest business taxes in the world, but, due to many a loophole, allows multinational corporations to pay little to nothing.

As such, most would-be business owners nowadays either:

(a) don’t get a chance to open their own businesses because they can’t get startup money,

(b) actually do open a business, but are forced closed before they have a chance to prosper, or

(c) simply don’t even bother to try as they see the risk (the possibility of losing everything if they don’t turn a profit quickly and consistently) as too great, especially if they have families to feed.

This type of thing was actually why so many middle-income Americans were angry when TARP (the big bank bailout bill) was passed in 2008, at the height of the financial crisis that led to the “Great Recession”. It was crony capitalism at its worst, with the big banks pretty much telling the Secretary of the Treasury that if they were not compensated for their bad behavior and decision making, they (the big banks) would collapse, making the entire economy falter, as the big banks were “too big to fail”. The Treasurer and Secretary of the Treasury came to Congress, and demanded that they bail out the banks. When the House of Representatives revolted and tried to refuse to pass the legislation, the stock indexes crashed even more. Yet every day Americans who had been affected by the bad behavior and decision making of the banks were left with both the disastrous consequences of the banking decisions - along with the bill for bailing out the banks.
:clapping: Many thanks for your superb analysis! The big banks are also at the root of the trouble in the UK, aided and abetted by the government. Under Tony Blair the “New Labour” government was in league with big business. He visited Rupert Murdoch in Australia before he was elected and has become a millionaire since being deposed. The current Prime Minister, David Cameron, has frequent meetings with Murdoch but he never discloses details of their discussions.:whistle: Jeremy Corbyn, the current leader of the opposition was elected with a majority of 60% because he has fiercely condemned the diabolical injustice in the UK. He is being attacked with smear tactics from within and without the Labour party by those who are more concerned about feathering their own nests than the plight of the poor. It is an uphill battle against vested interests but in four months he has already caused a revolution in British politics with his courage in the face of jeers from his opponents. He has persuaded even Tory MPs to backtrack against their vote for cuts to benefits and given many people hope for the future. There is an interesting article about him in the New York Times:

nytimes.com/2015/09/11/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-and-friends.html
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top