Is Catholicism A Democracy?

[JReducation]

I’m not absolutely ceratin of this but I think it’s more accurate to call Teresa of Avila a “reformer” of the Order of Carmelite nuns rather than a founder or foundress if the Carmelites.

You are right that she started out as a reformer. She had no intention of starting a second order of Carmelites, but that’s what she did.

That’s why we often refer to her as both, reformer and founder.

She is the official founder of the Oder of Discalced Carmelites, which is a different entity from the Carmelite Order.

As I said, she didn’t start out to start another Caremelite Order, but that’s what happened in the end.

It’s like St. Bernard and St. Benedict. St. Benedict founded the Order. St. Bernard tried to reform it and ended up founding the Cistercians. They are Benedictine, but a different order.

Hope this makes sense.

JR

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I’ve always thought that the main distinction between religions has been those that have been founded and revealed by God, and those that are man-made.

Thus the only religions I consider revealed by God are Judaism and Catholicism.

 

[catharina]

You are right that she started out as a reformer. She had no intention of starting a second order of Carmelites, but that’s what she did.

That’s why we often refer to her as both, reformer and founder.

She is the official founder of the Oder of Discalced Carmelites, which is a different entity from the Carmelite Order.

As I said, she didn’t start out to start another Caremelite Order, but that’s what happened in the end.

It’s like St. Bernard and St. Benedict. St. Benedict founded the Order. St. Bernard tried to reform it and ended up founding the Cistercians. They are Benedictine, but a different order.

Hope this makes sense.

JR

Excellent and thank you! I learn something new every day.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Excellent and thank you! I learn something new every day.

You and me both! And I’m loving it.

 

[JReducation]

I’ve always thought that the main distinction between religions has been those that have been founded and revealed by God, and those that are man-made.

Thus the only religions I consider revealed by God are Judaism and Catholicism.

There is a tricky issue here. I mean really tricky. The Church recognizes three monotheistic religions: Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

We know that Islam was founded by a man, but nonetheless, the Catholic Church gives it credit for having some (name removed by moderator)ut from the Holy Spirit, because they worship the same God that we do, the God of Abraham. Interestingly enough, they borrow a great deal from the OT and they have an entire chapter in the Quran dedicated to the Virgin Mary. It’s an awkward mix of truth and mohamedism.

The others are either philsophies or polytheistic religions, such as Hinduism.

Buddhism is a philsophy, though some call it a religion. They don’t call themselves a religion, the same for many of the Asian groups. They don’t refer to themselves as religions, but as spiritualities or philosophies.

Hope this makes it clearer.

JR

 

[catharina]

I’m going to post an exchange of PMs that just transpired: dustinsdad contacting me in private regard my posted question to him as to whther he’s ever left the Church. I’m posting this because his “private” approach is an insult to the nature of this thread - and I loathe the sarcasm he embraces so often.

from this thread:

catharina:

dustinsdad - I wonder as well: have you ever left the Church?

He opened with this quote of my question. then -
from the PM sent by dustinsdad: "Actually, I know you already saw my post #275 in this thread because you derogatively remarked about it in your post #350.

I guess congratulations of a sort are in order. You are the first Christian, let alone a Catholic, who ever tried to use such an argument on me personally in an attempt to get around an issue being discussed. This brings ad hominem to a new low and is beneath the lowest bare minimum of Christian charitable discource. I expect more from you.

And you are in my prayers.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad"

from me to DD, in response, also by private message:

“I don’t recall either of those posts but I’ll look at them. Forgive my senior moments? If you are one of those who have left the Church, I don’t recall that fact. Nevertheless why didn’t you respond in a post? How lovely that you’re young and your memory is solid in every instance. As I’ve said, you and your personal history and views are not at the center of my life. Expect whatever you wish from me. I expect very little from you in terms of the practice of charity. Your reputation is consistent.”

 

[catharina]

Yes.

No of course not. But alot of folks within the Church have forgotten to value and revere and hold fast to alot of what HMC has given us throughout the centuries. And rediscovering this is an eye opener and a great thing for many.

For myself as an example, I was born in 1969, fell away for all to long, then came back home by the grace if God and had the reconversion expereince. Then, later still, when I discovered the TLM and the traditional devotions and the older encyclicals and such, it was like just going deeper and deeper and deeper spiritually. I must admit, there was a feeling of a certain amount of being “cheated” - in the sense of wondering “where has this been hiding all my life!?! And why?!?”

But more than that passing thought, the real powerful aspect of finding “traditon” if you will, has been in a sense like falling in love all over again with this* same* awesome Bride of Christ, who is even more awesome and more beautiful than I ever realized before - even when I was fired up and back in the faith strongly.

I don’t know, hard to explain in words. It’s just that growth shouldn’t mean repudiating or forgetting the good and true of what HMC has given us. Growing means building on that to build up the body of Christ the Church, and using that to grow deeper spiritually ourselves.

Yeah, but I think some of these growing pains we are experincing now came from going too fast, too soon, and in many areas, going where the Church never intended to go in the first place. We’ve got to be honest with ourselves and realize that not every change is or was good, that just because something is “new” doesn’t make it “better.” Sometimes we gotta turn around and look where we are, just to make sure we haven’t wandered off the authentic path of HMC.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

OK. I found it. It was actually Post # 273.
You could have referred me to it minus the pointless lecture.

Please understand and accept that many things that might seem “new” to you might well, in fact, have been explained, taught and put into place while you were elsewhere.

 

[DustinsDad]

…It’s occured to me more than once that those on CA who claim to be traditionalist are at times those who have left the faith for a considerable time. Then they return, claiming to know better than those who remained in the Church learning quite dutifully over the passage of time. I have to wonder if such as they, the “reverts” and even some “converts,” have any idea that they can, at times, sound rather proud of their ‘fuller and better’ knowledge as if such would be a normal result of their errors, as if the Church were to blame for the failure of their own will to “keep the faith.” …

…Please understand and accept that many things that might seem “new” to you might well, in fact, have been explained, taught and put into place while you were elsewhere.

Wow.

Since you’ve taken it upon yourself to want to discuss my personal life in public, I’ll be happy to oblige, for such is a story of God’s mercy. This is the abridged version. For the unabridged, we’ll have to meet for coffee or something.

For the record, my drifting away from the Church and buying into the lies of the world started somewhere in my teens and lasted until when I was about 24 when by the awesome grace and totally unmerited mecy of God, He smacked me upside the head with a spiritual 2 x 4 and brought me home, using as an instrument, as is so often the case, the Blessed Virgin. And I take full responsiblity for the sins of my past thank you very much. My return? All credit goes to Our Lord and Our Lady - and many thanks also to the multitude of good and faithful folks they used along the way.

The return to Our Lord in HMC was about 15 years ago. Discovering the wonderful old traditions and the TLM came after a wonderful combination of some very blessed “coinsidences” just a few years ago…and again, I think Our Lady had a hand in it, but that’s another story. If anything, I love the Church I already loved totally even moreso.

So there you go. Nothing really worthy of a spot on the Coming Home Network, nothing really dramatic along the lines of a Fr. Corapi or a Scott Hahn, just your typical sinner comes back to the Church by the grace of God story. Average to most ears. Huge to me though.

Feel free to do with it what you will. If you want to use those years away from HMC as some sort of “club” on me, feel free. I would think you might actually want to discuss what is being discussed rather than my personal life, but what the heck. Since now I’m apparently in the dreaded “radical traditionalist” camp, I’ll do something old-fashioned and offer it up.

And peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[catharina]

Wow.

Since you’ve taken it upon yourself to want to discuss my personal life in public, I’ll be happy to oblige, for such is a story of God’s mercy. This is the abridged version. For the unabridged, we’ll have to meet for coffee or something.

For the record, my drifting away from the Church and buying into the lies of the world started somewhere in my teens and lasted until when I was about 24 when by the awesome grace and totally unmerited mecy of God, He smacked me upside the head with a spiritual 2 x 4 and brought me home, using as an instrument, as is so often the case, the Blessed Virgin. And I take full responsiblity for the sins of my past thank you very much. My return? All credit goes to Our Lord and Our Lady - and many thanks also to the multitude of good and faithful folks they used along the way.

The return to Our Lord in HMC was about 15 years ago. Discovering the wonderful old traditions and the TLM came after a wonderful combination of some very blessed “coinsidences” just a few years ago…and again, I think Our Lady had a hand in it, but that’s another story. If anything, I love the Church I already loved totally even moreso.

So there you go. Nothing really worthy of a spot on the Coming Home Network, nothing really dramatic along the lines of a Fr. Corapi or a Scott Hahn, just your typical sinner comes back to the Church by the grace of God story. Average to most ears. Huge to me though.

Feel free to do with it what you will. If you want to use those years away from HMC as some sort of “club” on me, feel free. I would think you might actually want to discuss what is being discussed rather than my personal life, but what the heck. Since now I’m apparently in the dreaded “radical traditionalist” camp, I’ll do something old-fashioned and offer it up.

And peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Do whatever you wish. That seems to be your habit. I’ll suggest though that you do NOT private-message me again, especially if your desire is to accuse me and insult me. The apology you have NOT offered for accusing me of attacking you and crediting that ‘attack’ to a '“lowest bare minimum of Christian charity” (rather the innocuous fact of my poor memory) is an apology I accept nonetheless. You would do well to credit Our Lord and His mother far more often and your own ‘understanding’ far less often. Your ‘understanding’ seems to reflect some voids.

 

[DustinsDad]

…The apology you have NOT offered for accusing me of attacking you and crediting that ‘attack’ to a '“lowest bare minimum of Christian charity” (rather the innocuous fact of my poor memory) is an apology I accept nonetheless…

You already explicitly referenced my “being away” here Saturday evening as a direct ad hominem attempt to discredit my post, my motives, and my love of the Church. And then you ask me just several posts later on Sunday evening if I had ever “left” the Church…and I am to automatically attribute this to 24-hour-forgetfulness? That’s asking alot. I truly suspected the question was facetious attempt to level the same ad hominem charge.

What the heck, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and I hope you are being honest here regarding your lapse in memory. My sincere apologies are offered.

…You would do well to credit Our Lord and His mother far more often and your own ‘understanding’ far less often. Your ‘understanding’ seems to reflect some voids.

If such is the case, then I would want to take responsibility for them - I’d never want to attribute voids in understanding to Our Lord and Our Lady.

And peace in Christ. Again and always.

DustinsDad

 

[catharina]

You already explicitly referenced my “being away” here as a direct ad hominem attempt to discredit my post, my motives, and my love of the Church. And then you ask me just several posts later if I had ever “left” the Church…and I am to automatically attribute this to forgetfulness? That’s asking alot. I truly suspected the question was facetious attempt to level the same ad hominem charge.

What the heck, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and I hope you are being honest here regarding your lapse in memory. My sincere apologies are offered.

If such is the case, then I would want to take responsibility for them - I’d never want to attribute voids in understanding to Our Lord and Our Lady.

And peace in Christ. Again and always.

DustinsDad

I accept your sincere apologies and look forward to the days when you will indeed take responsibility for the voids in your understanding. Since your “suspicion” outweighed my perfectly truthful admission of faulty memory until this very final moment, I can only say that your suspicions can be a real problem for you. Your supposed “several posts later” were more than “several,” now weren’t they?

Frankly I was NOT referring to you when I mentioned the number of traditionalists who left the Faith before their return and ‘great awakening.’ Simply, I had no memory of your having admitted to that. Please get a grip.

 

[DustinsDad]

Timewise, about 24 hours later. Postwise, your using my return as an ad hominem attack was #350, your asking me if I ever left was #395. That’s several.

…Frankly I was NOT referring to you when I mentioned the number of traditionalists who left the Faith before their return and ‘great awakening.’ Simply, I had no memory of your having admitted to that.

Judging from your actual post, I’m not sure your “frankness” here would hold up in a court of law. But I’ll take you on your word.

You might want to do something about this memory problem you are having though.

I …look forward to the days when you will indeed take responsibility for the voids in your understanding.

Then the sooner you can actually articulate and explain the errors of my understanding, the better. Unlike claims of personal memory lapses, on matters of the faith, I think I need a little more than just “take my word for it.” Explain my friend. Explain. Reference. Cite. Etc. That’s what a discussion board is for.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[catharina]

Timewise, about 24 hours later.

Judging from your actual post, I’m not sure your “frankness” here would hold up in a court of law. But I’ll take you on your word.

You might want to do something about this memory problem you are having though.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Well, heavens, then you MUST be correct because you MUST BE CORRECT. That’s the ballgame isn’t it? Toss any notion of charity out the window. Bring in the jurors. Most people my age do have moments of flawed memory. No solution known to me since I will continue to get older. Please, I implore you, find someone else to annoy and and insult. Or better yet, find someone, anyone, who will always step back and say: “Oops! I forgot. YOU ARE CORRECT.”
It fractures my brain that you seem to think your remarks are normal for Easter Sunday.

 

[I_Believe]

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but Whoa. Come on now, the Church has been losing souls. We are short on priests, nuns, and altar boys. In metro areas, we are seeing the clustering of parishes.

There is nothing at all negative at all about someone reverting to Catholicism. To hear of someone reverting is a glimmer of hope for a Church in crisis. It’s good news.

I know no one said it did, or could mean, anything negative, but good grief.

The only time a person’s reversion should be discussed , is if the revert wants to talk about it. To make it the center of an argument is nuts.

I’ve been wrong before, so feel free to tell me to mind my own buisness.

 

[DustinsDad]

…It fractures my brain that you seem to think your remarks are normal for Easter Sunday.

Rest assured, I am equally amazed at your remarks, your tone, your accusations, and am amazed that you don’t see it. It does seem to me like the pot calling the kettle black here.

But to heck with the animosity!

I am about to retire, let us do so in peace.

As fellow, fiesty, dedicated members in Christ’s Church - let us not forget that we are family and we wouldn’t be getting so riled up if we didn’t love Holy Mother Church so much.

So again, peace in Christ to you - and I mean that in all sincerety. This is an olive branch.

DustinsDad

.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Thus the only religions I consider revealed by God are Judaism and Catholicism.

While many will deny this, you are entirely correct in this my brother.
Deacon Ed B

 

[catharina]

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but Whoa. Come on now, the Church has been losing souls. We are short on priests, nuns, and altar boys. In metro areas, we are seeing the clustering of parishes.

There is nothing at all negative at all about someone reverting to Catholicism. To hear of someone reverting is a glimmer of hope for a Church in crisis. It’s good news.

I know no one said it did, or could mean, anything negative, but good grief.

The only time a person’s reversion should be discussed , is if the revert wants to talk about it. To make it the center of an argument is nuts.

I’ve been wrong before, so feel free to tell me to mind my own buisness.

My apologies to you and to others who are uninvolved in this exchange with dustinsdad. The center of the argument is the persistent habit of DD to call others liars, to attempt to sway opinions by insult and intimidation, to make claims regarding the Faith - his own and that of others - that are not his to make.

I asked what seemed to me to be an innocent and typical question. DD has said that he admitted his departure for parts unknown in Post # 273 - meaning he had already made it public, even if unbeknownst to me. For me to receive a PM from a man who sent it to accuse me and insult me is not “typical” (thanks be to God) and likely not innocent either. For him to complain when I made his nastiness public is typical and predictable. He could have chosen to answer me in a Post. He did not.

When someone returns to the Faith and seems to imagine he has much to teach rather than much to learn, then somone of my age (62 yrs) is entitled to find it unsettling. While he is now willing to say that he’s “back” due to graces received from Our Lord and His mother, those words of recognition are long overdue. I’m grateful that his usual reliance on sarcasm made room for that admission of graces received. As for those who have left the Faith and then returned to the Church, yes, always “there is more joy in heaven … .”

 

[catharina]

Rest assured, I am equally amazed at your remarks, your tone, your accusations, and am amazed that you don’t see it. It does seem to me like the pot calling the kettle black here.

But to heck with the animosity!

I am about to retire, let us do so in peace.

As fellow, fiesty, dedicated members in Christ’s Church - let us not forget that we are family and we wouldn’t be getting so riled up if we didn’t love Holy Mother Church so much.

So again, peace in Christ to you - and I mean that in all sincerety. This is an olive branch.

DustinsDad

.

Quite typically for you, your “peace” is preceded by your accusations.

Now that I’ve had a good night’s sleep, it occured to me to check my own posts. My brother died on March 7th. I spent a week in Chicago with family and attending his wake and funeral Mass. On returning to my home, I posted ONCE in this thread between March 15th and March 20th. Therefore it seems clear to me that my memory has not failed me. Rather, I never even saw your grand declaration of ‘left the Faith’ that you posted on March 15th. Get it? I never SAW it. You are most definitely NOT the center of my world. I do not live and breathe to read your posts - since I find most of your posts to be argumentative and insulting and patronizing in the extreme. While you might think that you are at the center of the universe, I assure you that you are not at the center of my universe.

I simply avoided this thread until March 20th when I felt sufficiently restored to re-enter the exchanges here. Because my absence (not my memory) kept me from taking note of your grand announcement, I can only say you have made a mountain out of a molehill but that is your pattern. As long as you feel free to point a finger out there you need never point it at yourself. You have accused me of LYING to you, maybe because of your over-ridng need to be “CORRECT” in all circumstances. You are outageous in every sense. Beyond doubt, I pity you.

Nevertheless, as usual, I forgive you - because I must do so.

Reminder: as I said to you on Easter morning at 5:30am:

“Do you accept the fact that many Catholics are unspeakably grateful to be within the Church, eternally thankful to have received such an unmerited grace in their lives - and that they have no sense of a need to police the Church, correct the Church, rebuke the Church, fault the Church? Happy Easter to you and to yours. We are in the same Church on the Feast of the Resurrection. Blessed be God forever.”

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

A general post and observation to all. Lets ALL try to avoid he said, she said or personal attacks of any kind. That is not fitting in this or any other forum. This goes for myself as well. Those who truly are not interested in the Catholic faith and inquiring about it are relatively easy to spot after one or a few posts. Lets simply give direct answers in a loving way. My personality is such that extremely long posts are interpreted by me of someone trying to overwhelm me with facts. Maybe they do, but they are a turn off for me. Possibly many others as well. Lets try the old KISS method. For those who are not familiar, it means, keep it** s**imple stupid. I try to employ this method for myself and others whenever possible. Yes, there are times we have to go deeper, but that should not be constant. I say this because my wife who is my best critic is always telling me, “Bring it down Ed, Bring it down>” Don’t tell her I said so, but she is rignt. Prayers and Blesssings
Deacon Ed B

 

[catharina]

A general post and observation to all. Lets ALL try to avoid he said, she said or personal attacks of any kind. That is not fitting in this or any other forum. This goes for myself as well. Those who truly are not interested in the Catholic faith and inquiring about it are relatively easy to spot after one or a few posts. Lets simply give direct answers in a loving way. My personality is such that extremely long posts are interpreted by me of someone trying to overwhelm me with facts. Maybe they do, but they are a turn off for me. Possibly many others as well. Lets try the old KISS method. For those who are not familiar, it means, keep it** s**imple stupid. I try to employ this method for myself and others whenever possible. Yes, there are times we have to go deeper, but that should not be constant. I say this because my wife who is my best critic is always telling me, “Bring it down Ed, Bring it down>” Don’t tell her I said so, but she is rignt. Prayers and Blesssings
Deacon Ed B

The old kiss method, huh?

As in, as my brothers say:
“Cut to the chase.”
“What’s the bottom line?”
“…and your point is …?”

Sometimes that’s most effective. Sometimes not.

On the other hand, I can promise that anyone who PMs me in an attempt to accuse me, insult me, browbeat me, etc… “off the record,” will likely find himself under the microscope until I have done with his lies. It reminds me of something my son said to me 30 years ago. I was attempting to comfort him when he said: “Mama, I just have to cry until I’m done.”

(Hope this wasn’t too long for you!)