Is Catholicism A Democracy?

[JReducation]

Also, this is a picture of the homilist (not at the Good Friday liturgy)…what is going on in this picture?

http://bp0.blogger.com/_kweFJm8yGGQ.../s400/cantalamessa_pastors_buenosaires_02.jpg

Hmmmmmm. Looks like a Catholic priest is getting “blessed” by Protestant minsters. What would Pope Pius XII say???

Probably not much. Did you forget that we are five popes later?

Do you know anything about religious habits? Observe that he is a Capuchin Brother or Friar, English or Latin, it means the same. How can you tell that he’s a priest? I can tell that he’s a Brother, because it’s the habit of the Capuchin Friars. Notice that he’s not wearing a stole. They never wear stoles except to celebrate sacraments. This is deliberate to avoid clericalism and being identified as an order of priests. In this case you are correct. Cantalonessa is ordained. He is what the Constitutions of the Friars Minor call a Clerical-Brother.

They have a tradition that dates back to St. Francis of praying with infidels, heretics and non believers as a sign of charity and as a means of preaching. Their tradition has never been critiqued or condemned by the Church. In fact, they are the official preachers and confessors of the Pope. What gives you the right to critique him?

They even have a branch of their order, The Franciscans of the Atonement, that was founded to bring together Protestants and Catholics. They also have a Lutheran and Anglican branch of their order.

Finally, they are an Order of Pontifical Right with a Papal Bull that protects their rule. If the Pope saw anyting wrong with their rule and their traditions, he has the power to change it, but no Pope has ever touched it since 1223. You do not have the power nor the authority to change or criticize it.

Regardless, what is wrong with having ministers of another faith pray for you? Prayer is prayer, regardless who does the praying. The Church does teach of the importance of Ecumenical prayer. Recently Pope Benedict and the Orthodox Patriarch not only prayed together, but jointly blessed the Church and the world from the Papal window at the Vatican.

Perhaps, but it is not like everything that comes out of the Vaican is personally approved by the Holy Father. Unfortunately, there are politics involved here, different forces sometimes in conflict. There is a human side to HMC, and sometimes even those in high positions are opposed to the Holy Father.

I see your lack of trust is rearing its ugly head again.

And this is a vague statement that can be interpreted in a right way and a wrong way. Again, please, how do you take this and interpret it? It’s not a trick question?

The statement is not vague. Read it for yourself.

"Nevertheless, among the elements and gifts which belong to the Catholic Church (e.g.; the written Word of God, the life of grace, faith, hope and charity etc.) many can exist outside its visible limits. The Churches and ecclesial Communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation, for the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation. " (Et Unum Sint, John Paul II).

[quoteIf they are no longer excommunicated, then they are in communion. If they aren’t in communion, then they are excommunicated. 2+2=4, not 5. A circle is a circle, not a square.
[/quote]

Read Et Unum Sint

1. "With regard to the Church of Rome and the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the process which we have just mentioned began thanks to the mutual openness demonstrated by Popes John XXIII and Paul VI on the one hand, and by the Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras I and his successors on the other. The resulting change found its historical expression in the ecclesial act whereby “there was removed from memory and from the midst of the Church”[84] the remembrance of the excommunications which nine hundred years before, in 1054, had become the symbol of the schism between Rome and Constantinople. "

The excommunications no longer exist. Go argue it with the Pope. Since an excommunication can only be imposed and lifted by a Pope, it stands to reason that it happened. There is nothing to debate. This is within the ordinary authority of the Pontiff.

outside the Church there is no Salvation. You cannot deny this and remain Catholic.

John Paul II seems to disagree with your understanding of the church. I believe he spells it with a lower case “c” as it’s writen in the Creed. Read what I posted above and take it up with him.

Therefore, I’m sure you still accept this, but somehow and for some reason, you are uncomfortable with it? Why?

I’m uncomfortable with anyone who takes it upon themselves to tell the Church what is right and wrong. I can accept disagreement. To try to tell the Church that her authoritative teaching is wrong is disturbing.

By the way, have you ever read the writings of John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II? Is there anything that the Catholic Church today does that pleases you? Thus far, you have not celebrated or rejoiced in anything that the Catholic Church does, not in this thread.

I thought that the celebrations of Holy Week and Easter would move you to rejoice in seeing some beauty, truth, charity, joy, and an attempt to bring Catholics and other people of faith together, but even THAT doesn’t seem to please you.

You are sounding more and more like those whom St. Francis referred to as Brother Fly. You are not contributing to the spirit of the community, you are dampening it.

Our Holy Father Francis once said to a brother who always had a negative attitude and contributed nothing to the growth of the Brotherhood, “Go away Brother Fly.”

JR

 

[JReducation]

Hi, JR. Fair enough. And really, since we do have a choice between the Novus Ordo and the Forma Extrordinaria (I love that name ) now, we have no real reason to knock either.

The NO, as introduced, is fine. Nothing non-catholic about it. The priests who take a “as long as the GIRM doesn’t forbid it, it must be ok” approach, and proceed to customize the NO is where the problems start.

I really don’t even want to debate it anymore though. I’ve decided that since the MP has finally freed the Forma Extraordinaria, it’s really in the hands of our priests now. Especially our new priests.
Will more of them choose traditional seminaries or others ? Time will tell.

Have a Blessed Easter

I agree with you. The debate over the form of the liturgy is over. It is now up to young men who want to be secular priests to choose the seminary of their choice. I can see diocesan seminaries also offering courses on the EF.

As to religious, that’s up to the major superiors of their orders. The MO does not speak to them and I doubt that the Church will force the EF on them, but allow them to continue to choose what is best for their community. This is OK too. Their primary ogligation it the spirit of their community.

I would prefer to move on to our relationship with the Church as exemplified by the great saints and mystics. Afterall, isn’t sainthood what we’re all striving for?

JR

 

[DustinsDad]

Probably not much. Did you forget that we are five popes later?

Truth is truth my friend. Have you read the Mortalium Animos? Put it, with Pascendi, on your list . The Church is older than 30 years my friend.

…In this case you are correct. Cantalonessa is ordained.

Exactly.

They have a tradition that dates back to St. Francis of praying with infidels, heretics and non believers as a sign of charity and as a means of preaching. …

Can you give some historical specific examples of such that would in any way be similar to an ordained member of the clergy publically being “blessed” by “ministers” of heretical protestant groups? Being blessed by a group of protestant folks seems to be exactly the sort of thing Pius XI warned against.

Or can we discount this Vicar of Christ since we are now “five popes later”? Does that mean we can also discount Et Unum Sint, since we are one pope later? Or is there a certain number of laters when an encyclical can go on the “pay no mind” list?

Of course I’m beign facetious to make a point*, *you’ve gotta take 'em all. It seems you are reading into Et Unum Sint what should not be because you discount and do not take into consideration the cautions and warnings of Mortalium Animos. …

I see your lack of trust is rearing its ugly head again.

Huh?

The statement is not vague. Read it for yourself.

I have, numerous times. If you can’t admit that it is vague and ambiguous - prone too easily to misinterpretation - then we’ll just have to end it at that. I don’t think you’re really attempting to address my questions to you, but rather, pontificating against some other alleged position you assume I have. We aren’t communicating my friend.

Agree to disagree. And peace in Christ and Happy Easter to you.

DustinsDad

 

[JReducation]

Truth is truth my friend. Have you read the Mortalium Animos? Put it, with Pascendi, on your list . The Church is older than 30 years my friend.

I have read them.

Can you give some historical specific examples of such that would in any way be similar to an ordained member of the clergy publically being “blessed” by “ministers” of heretical protestant groups? Being blessed by a group of protestant folks seems to be exactly the sort of thing Pius XI warned against.

I don’t see why you have such difficulty with an 800 year old tradition. This man is not dressed as a priest. He is wearing a Brother’s habit. He not functioning as a priest. He is functioning as a Friar Minor who is preaching or going to preach, I take from the picture. This is their mission, to be preachers. They don’t have to be priests to be preachers. This is in their rule. He does not intend for people to look at him as a priest. That’s why he is not wearing a stole, just as he was not wearing one at the Good Friday liturgy. He goes before the crowd as a Friar Minor, a preacher of penance, not an ordained minister. If he wanted to present himself as an ordained minister he would have worn a stole. Something that his community would have shunned, except to celebrate liturgy or if he’s in a diocese where the bishop requires it.

Or can we discount this Vicar of Christ since we are now “five popes later”? Does that mean we can also discount Et Unum Sint, since we are one pope later? Or is there a certain number of laters when an encyclical can go on the “pay no mind” list?

Now you’re being extremist.

Of course I’m beign facetious to make a point*, *you’ve gotta take 'em all. It seems you are reading into Et Unum Sint what should not be because you discount and do not take into consideration the cautions and warnings of Mortalium Animos. …

Do you believe that John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI disregarded their predecessors before lifting the excommunication of the Orthodox, puplishing Et Unum Sint, or standing at the balcony of St. Peter’s with the Orthodox Patriarch blessing the Church as one? I don’t think they did so.

I have, numerous times. If you can’t admit that it is vague and ambiguous - prone too easily to misinterpretation - then we’ll just have to end it at that. I don’t think you’re really attempting to address my questions to you, but rather, pontificating against some other alleged position you assume I have. We aren’t communicating my friend.

There is nothing ambiguous about it. Christ uses these communities as a means to salvation. That’s pretty staightforward. You don’t want to accept that response. Don’t.

Agree to disagree.

I can agree to this, because it’s very difficult to have a discussion with somoneone who see nothing good in the Church. If you do, you seem to be keeping it a secret. I don’t get a single piece of Good News from you. Maybe it’s me.

Happy Easter

JR

DustinsDad

 

[catharina]

from the Vatican, Good Friday, 2008

"Cross Challenges Human Certainties, Says Pope

Affirms Jesus Is the Truth That Enables Love

ROME, MARCH 21, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI says the sacrifice of Christ should call into question our human certainties, setting us free to love.

The Pope said this tonight at the end of the Way of the Cross he presided over in the Roman Colosseum. Tens of thousands of faithful braved an unexpected chill and rain to meditate on the sacrifice of Christ. The reflections for the ceremony were written this year by Cardinal Joseph Zen, bishop of Hong Kong.

“Is it possible to remain indifferent before the death of the Lord, of the Son of God?” the Holy Father asked. "For us, for our salvation he became man, so as to be able to suffer and die.

“Let us pause to contemplate his cross. The cross, fount of life and school of justice and peace, is the universal patrimony of pardon and mercy. It is permanent proof of a self-emptying and infinite love that brought God to become man, vulnerable like us, unto dying crucified.”

Returning to a theme that he frequently touches upon, Benedict XVI urged the faithful to become friends with Christ.

“Through the sorrowful way of the cross, the men of all ages, reconciled and redeemed by the blood of Christ, have become friends of God, sons of the heavenly Father,” he said. "‘Friend,’ is what Jesus calls Judas and he offers him the last and dramatic call to conversion. ‘Friend,’ he calls each of us, because he is the authentic friend of everyone.

“Unfortunately, we do not always manage to perceive the depth of this limitless love that God has for us. For him, there is no distinction of race or culture. Jesus Christ died to liberate the humanity of old of their ignorance of God, of the circle of hate and violence, of the slavery to sin. The cross makes us brothers and sisters.”

Stewards

The Pope challenged the faithful to examine their response to this friendship.

“But let us ask ourselves in this moment,” he said, “what have we done with this gift, what have we done with the revelation of the face of God in Christ, with the revelation of the love of God that conquers hate. Many, in our age as well, do not know God and cannot encounter him in Christ crucified. Many are in search of a love or a liberty that excludes God. Many believe they have no need of God.”

“Let us this night allow his sacrifice on the cross to question us. Let us permit him to challenge our human certainties,” the Holy Father urged. "Let us open our hearts. Jesus is the truth that makes us free to love. Let us not be afraid: Upon dying, the Lord destroyed sin and saved sinners, that is, all of us.

"This is the truth of Good Friday: On the cross, the Redeemer has made us adoptive sons of God who he created in his image and likeness. Let us remain, then, in adoration before the cross.

“Christ, give us the peace we seek, the happiness we desire, the love the fills our heart thirsty for the infinite. This is our prayer for this night, Jesus, Son of God, who died for us on the cross and was resurrected on the third day.”

Concern for Asia

In the images of each of the 14 stations found in the book given to the pilgrims and presented by TV coverage of the event, Christ and the other figures are presented with Asian traits.

Cardinal Zen wrote in the forward of the meditations, “I did not have the slightest hesitation in accepting the task [of writing them]. I recognized that this was the Holy Father’s way of demonstrating his personal concern for the great continent of Asia, and in particular, his way of including in this solemn act of Christian piety the faithful people of China, for whom the Via Crucis is a deeply felt devotion.”

A Chinese youth handed over the cross at the 14th station to the Pope, who followed the Way of the Cross from atop the Palatine Hill.

In the previous stations, the cross was borne by faithful including Franciscan friars from the Custody of the Holy Land, a disabled person in a wheelchair, a Roman family, a woman religious from Burkina Faso, and Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the Pope’s vicar for the Diocese of Rome."
The song of Easter, “This is the day the LORD has made. Let us be glad and rejoice in it!” is the song we are to share with the world. Jesus, as “the authentic friend,” has made us brothers and sisters of His, children of God. When the joy of a Francis of Assisi, of a Francis de Sales, of a Mother Teresa (and others) cannot be found in a message of faith, then what is lost to listeners? The notion that God is ready to “pounce” on His children is a false message.

 

[JReducation]

from the Vatican, Good Friday, 2008

"Cross Challenges Human Certainties, Says Pope

Affirms Jesus Is the Truth That Enables Love

ROME, MARCH 21, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI says the sacrifice of Christ should call into question our human certainties, setting us free to love.

The Pope said this tonight at the end of the Way of the Cross he presided over in the Roman Colosseum. Tens of thousands of faithful braved an unexpected chill and rain to meditate on the sacrifice of Christ. The reflections for the ceremony were written this year by Cardinal Joseph Zen, bishop of Hong Kong.

“Is it possible to remain indifferent before the death of the Lord, of the Son of God?” the Holy Father asked. "For us, for our salvation he became man, so as to be able to suffer and die.

“Let us pause to contemplate his cross. The cross, fount of life and school of justice and peace, is the universal patrimony of pardon and mercy. It is permanent proof of a self-emptying and infinite love that brought God to become man, vulnerable like us, unto dying crucified.”

Returning to a theme that he frequently touches upon, Benedict XVI urged the faithful to become friends with Christ.

“Through the sorrowful way of the cross, the men of all ages, reconciled and redeemed by the blood of Christ, have become friends of God, sons of the heavenly Father,” he said. "‘Friend,’ is what Jesus calls Judas and he offers him the last and dramatic call to conversion. ‘Friend,’ he calls each of us, because he is the authentic friend of everyone.

“Unfortunately, we do not always manage to perceive the depth of this limitless love that God has for us. For him, there is no distinction of race or culture. Jesus Christ died to liberate the humanity of old of their ignorance of God, of the circle of hate and violence, of the slavery to sin. The cross makes us brothers and sisters.”

Stewards

The Pope challenged the faithful to examine their response to this friendship.

“But let us ask ourselves in this moment,” he said, “what have we done with this gift, what have we done with the revelation of the face of God in Christ, with the revelation of the love of God that conquers hate. Many, in our age as well, do not know God and cannot encounter him in Christ crucified. Many are in search of a love or a liberty that excludes God. Many believe they have no need of God.”

“Let us this night allow his sacrifice on the cross to question us. Let us permit him to challenge our human certainties,” the Holy Father urged. "Let us open our hearts. Jesus is the truth that makes us free to love. Let us not be afraid: Upon dying, the Lord destroyed sin and saved sinners, that is, all of us.

"This is the truth of Good Friday: On the cross, the Redeemer has made us adoptive sons of God who he created in his image and likeness. Let us remain, then, in adoration before the cross.

“Christ, give us the peace we seek, the happiness we desire, the love the fills our heart thirsty for the infinite. This is our prayer for this night, Jesus, Son of God, who died for us on the cross and was resurrected on the third day.”

Concern for Asia

In the images of each of the 14 stations found in the book given to the pilgrims and presented by TV coverage of the event, Christ and the other figures are presented with Asian traits.

Cardinal Zen wrote in the forward of the meditations, “I did not have the slightest hesitation in accepting the task [of writing them]. I recognized that this was the Holy Father’s way of demonstrating his personal concern for the great continent of Asia, and in particular, his way of including in this solemn act of Christian piety the faithful people of China, for whom the Via Crucis is a deeply felt devotion.”

A Chinese youth handed over the cross at the 14th station to the Pope, who followed the Way of the Cross from atop the Palatine Hill.

In the previous stations, the cross was borne by faithful including Franciscan friars from the Custody of the Holy Land, a disabled person in a wheelchair, a Roman family, a woman religious from Burkina Faso, and Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the Pope’s vicar for the Diocese of Rome."
The song of Easter, “This is the day the LORD has made. Let us be glad and rejoice in it!” is the song we are to share with the world. Jesus, as “the authentic friend,” has made us brothers and sisters of His, children of God. When the joy of a Francis of Assisi, of a Francis de Sales, of a Mother Teresa (and others) cannot be found in a message of faith, then what is lost to listeners? The notion that God is ready to “pounce” on His children is a false message.

Thanks Cathy

This was awesome. Would you mind if I piggy-back on it?

JR

 

[catharina]

Thanks Cathy

This was awesome. Would you mind if I piggy-back on it?

JR

Heavens, no. Help yourself.

Must add too that while it’s possible that I was raised in rare circumstances, it’s not likely at all. Rather I had a very standard RC education beginning in kindergarten and continuing through university degree. Still, it was in sixth grade, in preparation for the Sacrament of Confirmation that my 106 classmates and I were instructed fully and clearly in the FACT that salvation came to us through the Jews. That through the faithfulness of the Patriarchs and the generations that followed them, we were called to new life in Christ Jesus. This was taught within the framework of Salvation History and any time I hear anyone seek to negate our debt to the Jewish Faith, I tend to see red. Needless to say (?), I and my classmates were not surprised by Pope John Paul II’s outreach to the Chief Rabbi of Rome some 30 years later - because it makes sense.

 

[JReducation]

Heavens, no. Help yourself.

Must add too that while it’s possible that I was raised in rare circumstances, it’s not likely at all. Rather I had a very standard RC education beginning in kindergarten and continuing through university degree. Still, it was in sixth grade, in preparation for the Sacrament of Confirmation that my 106 classmates and I were instructed fully and clearly in the FACT that salvation came to us through the Jews. That through the faithfulness of the Patriarchs and the generations that followed them, we were called to new life in Christ Jesus. This was taught within the framework of Salvation History and any time I hear anyone seek to negate our debt to the Jewish Faith, I tend to see red. Needless to say (?), I and my classmates were not surprised by Pope John Paul II’s outreach to the Chief Rabbi of Rome some 30 years later - because it makes sense.

What I find most interesting about people who post such things about Jews on CAF or anywhere else, is that these are things that they would never dare to say to a Jewish person to their face.

I was born Jewish and raised a Jew. I became a Catholic as an adult, a young adult, but it was my choice. My people and my family are like any Catholic community. There are very holy people among them and there are those who are Jewish when it serves their purpose.

Like the Holy Father and the saints before him, I believe that Christ died for all people, not only those who believed in him. We cannot limit the saving act of Christ. Christ is the head of the Mystical Body and he draws to this body whomever he pleases.

In some mysterious and transcendent way, all people are united to the catholic church of the creed. Notice that the creed does not use the upper case “c”. It’s using the Greek form, universal. There is a universal character to the church and there is a temporal character. This is why the Catholic Church says that the fulness of truth “subsists” in the Catholic Church.

It means that it is found within the Catholic Church in all of its fulness. It does not mean that others have not inherited any of the truths that we have inherited. Some of these truths have been gifted to them by the Holy Spirit and others are found in natural law. Those truths are not the exclusive property of the Catholic Church, but are the revealed treasure of the catholic church. There are other truths that were revealed by Christ and which we find in our Church as well as other Christian communities. We are the only ones blessed with the fullness of truth: those revealed by the Holy Spirit, those found in nature, and all of those revealed through Christ.

However, despite the limits of posessing only some truths, the Holy Spirit works through those truths as a means of salvation. That’s why I’m certain that my Jewish mother and family are also in Heaven. They lived according to the truths that they had. In the end, God judges us not by what truths we have, but how faithful we are to what we have.

JR

 

[catharina]

Another reason that leads to my question of “how long were some Catholics gone from the Church and where did they go anyway?” is closely related to the lack of appreciation for the promise to the Jews, fulfilled in Christ because because of Jewish fidelity to God’s Law. How can anyone think there is praise in being (much less voicing) even slightly anti-Semitic thought? If I learned quite clearly the role of the Jews in Salvation History in the 1950s, then how did others not learn it between then and now? How long were they away from the Church? How can they imagine that they are now “all caught up” or even in possession some “advanced” truth?

 

[Jeanette_L]

What I find most interesting about people who post such things about Jews on CAF or anywhere else, is that these are things that they would never dare to say to a Jewish person to their face.

I was born Jewish and raised a Jew. I became a Catholic as an adult, a young adult, but it was my choice. My people and my family are like any Catholic community. There are very holy people among them and there are those who are Jewish when it serves their purpose.

Like the Holy Father and the saints before him, I believe that Christ died for all people, not only those who believed in him. We cannot limit the saving act of Christ. Christ is the head of the Mystical Body and he draws to this body whomever he pleases.

In some mysterious and transcendent way, all people are united to the catholic church of the creed. Notice that the creed does not use the upper case “c”. It’s using the Greek form, universal. There is a universal character to the church and there is a temporal character. This is why the Catholic Church says that the fulness of truth “subsists” in the Catholic Church.

It means that it is found within the Catholic Church in all of its fulness. It does not mean that others have not inherited any of the truths that we have inherited. Some of these truths have been gifted to them by the Holy Spirit and others are found in natural law. Those truths are not the exclusive property of the Catholic Church, but are the revealed treasure of the catholic church. There are other truths that were revealed by Christ and which we find in our Church as well as other Christian communities. We are the only ones blessed with the fullness of truth: those revealed by the Holy Spirit, those found in nature, and all of those revealed through Christ.

However, despite the limits of posessing only some truths, the Holy Spirit works through those truths as a means of salvation. That’s why I’m certain that my Jewish mother and family are also in Heaven. They lived according to the truths that they had. In the end, God judges us not by what truths we have, but how faithful we are to what we have.

JR

This very teaching found in the Catechism, was one of the mind blowing revelations that grabbed me and pulled me in when I was still Fundamentalist and searching for what I knew was more.

The fact that this doctrine fully settles that gnawing thing in the back of my head that said God’s justice didn’t seem universal, it was the only thing that finally made perfect sense, in everything I had ever heard or been taught before this.

The grace of God far exceeds anything we can possibly conceive, which begs the question, since we can conceive of a sort of justice for those who have never heard or understood the plan of God’s salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, how can salvation be for the whole world if they don’t know about it?

We serve an awesome God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And I am so thankful to have been called home to His Church.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Here is an interesting tidbit. In a theology class many years ago, our professor started one class by welcoming all of us, his Jewish brethren to the class. One student asked what he meant by it, and he responded that we Catholics are the Jewish faith brought to fulfillment. That is, we were the old covenant fulfilled by the new covenant brought about through Jesus Christ in the fulness of revelation. I thought this would be interesting for some to think about and see what discussion this would generate.
Deacon Ed B.

 

[JReducation]

As it is Easter Sunday, I believe that it is appropriate to speak about the one Christian who most closely embraced the cross of Jesus Christ and his Resurrection. Such was the spirit of love that Francis of Assisi had for the cross and so deep was his understanding of the heart of the Crucified, that the Church has often referred to him as “the Saint of Saints” and “The Mirror of Perfection.” Francis left for us his simple and profound understanding of the love of Christ crucified and glorified. The Holy Spirit gave him this insight, not for his own benefit, but for the benefit of the Church, so that we too might learn how to imitate and love as Christ loved.

History tells us that in his dealings with the erring we discover Francis’ truly Christian spirit and the spirit of the crucified and glorious Christ. At his canonization this statement was made by one of the earliest chroniclers of our Holy Father St. Francis’. “Saintlier than any of the saints, among sinners he was as one of them.” Writing to a superior of the order, Francis says, “Should there be a brother anywhere in the world who has sinned, no matter how great so ever the fault may be, let him not go away after he has once seen thy face without showing pity towards him; and if he seek not mercy, ask him if he does not desire it. And by this I will know if you love God and me."

To be one with the sinner, is what Christ did on the cross. He died between thieves. Francis captured the meaning of this scene that John points out for us in his gospel and taught us how to apply it in our daily lives. Instead of fighting or critiquing those whom we believe to be in error, no matter how serious the error, we should show neither anger nor frustration, only mercy and love. Nor should we ever be critical or judgmental.



In this picture, which certain people have taken to task and have an issue with, is one of Francis’ sons doing exactly what Francis did and what the Church loved about him and found to be holy in him. This faithful son of St. Francis is one with the erring, not in the error, but in prayer, love and charity.

Fifty years ago who would have thought that a group of Protestant ministers would have joined to pray for a Catholic friar? However, here it is. What Pope, what Christian would find difficulty with this? It is a simple gesture that foreshadows unity among Christians. It is brought about by a friar with the courage to follow the footsteps of St. Francis and repeats St. Francis’ imitation of the Crucified Christ who chose to live and die among sinners with an open heart.

Today, we are in desperate need of this kind of spirituality. Maybe this is why the Pope ends his sermon at the Stations of the Cross invoking the names of St. Francis de Sales, Mother Teresa and St. Francis of Assisi. They understood the mystery of the cross, to be one with those in error, united by mercy, prayer and love, not by anger or criticism. Just as they shared in Christ’s attitude on the cross, they also share in his resurrection.

 

[catharina]

Here is an interesting tidbit. In a theology class many years ago, our professor started one class by welcoming all of us, his Jewish brethren to the class. One student asked what he meant by it, and he responded that we Catholics are the Jewish faith brought to fulfillment. That is, we were the old covenant fulfilled by the new covenant brought about through Jesus Christ in the fulness of revelation. I thought this would be interesting for some to think about and see what discussion this would generate.
Deacon Ed B.

from Romans, 11, Paul addressing the Gentiles:

“25 I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,
26 and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;
27 and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

 

[DustinsDad]

I have read them.

Hmmmm. Didn’t we have to have a little retraction from you a while back on your description of Pascendi? But ok.

I don’t see why you have such difficulty with an 800 year old tradition. This man is not dressed as a priest. He is wearing a Brother’s habit. He not functioning as a priest. He is functioning as a Friar Minor who is preaching or going to preach, I take from the picture. This is their mission, to be preachers. They don’t have to be priests to be preachers. This is in their rule. He does not intend for people to look at him as a priest. That’s why he is not wearing a stole, just as he was not wearing one at the Good Friday liturgy. He goes before the crowd as a Friar Minor, a preacher of penance, not an ordained minister. If he wanted to present himself as an ordained minister he would have worn a stole. Something that his community would have shunned, except to celebrate liturgy or if he’s in a diocese where the bishop requires it.

What this has to do with my question to you is beyond me.

You certainly are fixated on habits though.

Now you’re being extremist.

Now you are name-calling. Isn’t the first time though.

Do you believe that John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI disregarded their predecessors before lifting the excommunication of the Orthodox, puplishing Et Unum Sint, or standing at the balcony of St. Peter’s with the Orthodox Patriarch blessing the Church as one? I don’t think they did so.

I think you are reading more into the lifitng of the excommunication decree and Et Unum Sint than are actualy there…as these are irrelevant to the very specific question I asked you. Why do you struggle so much to answer a very simple specific quesiton.

There is nothing ambiguous about it. Christ uses these communities as a means to salvation. That’s pretty staightforward. You don’t want to accept that response. Don’t.

So do you reject EENS or do you accept EENS?

Please explain how you understand the words of Pope John Paul II - I want to make sure we’re on the same page here. Why is this so difficult for you?

I can agree to this, because it’s very difficult to have a discussion with somoneone who see nothing good in the Church. If you do, you seem to be keeping it a secret. I don’t get a single piece of Good News from you.

So now the modus operendi is to bait others into disagreeing with your personal observations, and then use said disagreement as “evidence” for their finding “nothing good in the Church.” How arrogant, how rude, and how unChristian! And on Easter Sunday no less!!! Is this the charity you spoke of before? St. Francis de Sales is rolling over in his grave.

Maybe it’s me.

It is. I love the Chuch and I’d die for the Church. It is my home and always will be. God willing for all eternity.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Richie_Nelson]

Dustin’s Dad:

I am curious as to your educational background/experience in the catholic church.

thanks, Richie

 

[DustinsDad]

Thanks Cathy

This was awesome. Would you mind if I piggy-back on it?

JR

I’ll piggy back as well if you don’t mind. God bless Pope Benedict XVI - a blessing and a grace for our troubled time.

DD

 

[catharina]

Dustin’s Dad:

I am curious as to your educational background/experience in the catholic church.

thanks, Richie

dustinsdad - I wonder as well: have you ever left the Church?

 

[DustinsDad]

Dustin’s Dad:

I am curious as to your educational background/experience in the catholic church.

thanks, Richie

By the grace of God, I’m just an unworthy catholic in the pew, a son of the handmaid of the Lord. I make no other puffed up claim than that.

Why do you ask?

Peace in Christ,

DusitnsDad

 

[JReducation]

It’s interesting that Deacon Ed has introduced the topic of Judaism among Catholics, because this reminded me of one of my own people, Edith Stein, known in religious life as Sr. Teresia Benedicta, O. Carm.

Like me, Edith was born Jewish and converted to Catholicism. That’s where the simile ends, unfortunately for me.

Edith Stein is one of those people whose entire life seems to be a sign. She was born on Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement. Little did anyone know that she would link the Jewish Day of Atonement with the cross, not through theology or philosophy, but with her own blood. She would atone for her people and their persecutors 42-years later.

But Edith’s journey to the cross was not to be simple. It would take her through many narrow paths. She would become an atheist first. Later she would become one of the first women in the world to hold a Doctoral Degree Philology and a Doctoral Degree in Philosophy. Try as she might to prove the non existence of God, her Jewish roots kept refocusing her. She found herself looking for the possibility of the transcendent, that which goes beyond all human comprehension, that which surpasses a human being’s ability to love, but loves more completely and more perfectly and that which surpasses our merger understanding of truth, but is Truth itself, living and eternal.

It was not Catholicism that gave her this angst for the transcendent God, try as she may to disprove his existence, but her Jewish roots in the patriarchs and the prophets, the Torah and the Talmud. The Holy Spirit reached out to her through what she knew, through the truths that had been revealed to Israel and led her toward the fullness of that truth, but no on man’s time or Edith’s time, but on Christ’s time and using Christ’s way.

She picked up, seemingly by chance, the autobiography of St. Teresa of Avila, founder of the Carmelite Order. She read it in one sitting, and when she had finished she looked up and proclaimed to her soul, “This is truth.” Once again, we see the saints and the mystics bringing souls to Christ, most importantly, bringing them to the cross, just as St. Francis did, so did St. Teresa of Edith Stein.

If we follow the path of the mystics, we shall find that no matter which one we pick, they will all lead us to the cross. We all know and understand that the Liturgy is the climax of faith and the ultimate celebration of the mystery of the cross. But without obedience and humility, the cross can do little for us. Just look at the second thief who hung next to Jesus. He will forever remain the unknown thief. Maybe he’s with Christ in paradise, but we shan’t know this until we arrive ourselves.

Going back to St. Teresia Benedicta, let’s examine another connection between our faith and the Jewish faith. Once Edith had accepted the truth that the Holy Spirit revealed to her through Teresa of Avila, she made a bold move. She asked for Baptism. Later she asked to be admitted to Teresa’s Order and she became a Carmelite nun. But she never left behind her Jewish faith and roots.

When the Nazis began their persecution of our people, Edith had this to say

“I told our Lord that I knew it was His cross that was now being placed upon the Jewish people; that most of them did not understand this, but that those who did would have to take it up willingly in the name of all. I would do that. I was certain that I had been heard. But what this carrying of the cross was to consist in, that I did not yet know. “

Nonetheless, coming from a people who were used to persecution and used to depending on Divine Providence, she was able to take up the cross for our people, even though she had no idea how this would happen. Abraham, Isaac, and Moses had no idea either. They trusted and they suffered for their trust.

What is most beautiful about Edith or Sister Teresia is her calm acceptance that not all Jews understood what was happening to them and that those of us who do understand have an obligation to carry the cross for the rest. There is not judgment, no condemnation, no complaining because I have to carry your cross and mine. There is simply humble submission for the sake of love, love of God, love of Israel and love of those who persecuted our people. Through this love, one Jewish woman, physically identifies herself with the crucified Christ, trusting in the resurrection. She died in the gas chambers at Auschwitz on 9 August 1942, but she set paved the path between Judaism and Catholicism with her life. She was later followed by the Franciscan Friar, Maximilian Kolbe.

She is a model for all Catholic and Jewish people of faith.

JR

 

[catharina]

I’m not absolutely ceratin of this but I think it’s more accurate to call Teresa of Avila a “reformer” of the Order of Carmelite nuns rather than a founder or foundress if the Carmelites.