Is Catholicism A Democracy?

[Jeanette_L]

I actually find it heartening when people describe the state of the Church as it really is and don’t appeal to some hidden Gnostic wisdom of the hierarchy in regards to prudential decisions regarding items like the liturgy. This is heartening because it means people are thus looking for and seeking solutions.

Hence it was such a great boon to have Cardinal Ratzinger elected Pope because from his previous writings one knew he thought that the past forty years had not been good for the Church and that he regarded the state of the liturgy as one of the prime reasons and hence he has taken steps to rectify that.

Conversely, what can be less heartening is when people act as if the hierarchy have some hidden wisdom that turns what looks like poor prudential decisions into wise ones, because it is much more encouraging to have people recognize a genuine problem than not.

God bless.

So the idea that God’s hand (hidden wisdom) is guiding the Church through the ages via the Magisterium and it’s Councils and the Popes (wise ones) is now considered Gnosticism? Sounds more like orthodox Catholic belief to me.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

So the idea that God’s hand (hidden wisdom) is guiding the Church through the ages via the Magisterium and it’s Councils and the Popes (wise ones) is now considered Gnosticism? Sounds more like orthodox Catholic belief to me.

I did not use the term Magisterium or Councils. The official teaching of the Church on Faith and Morals is infallible. I specifically referred to prudential decisions which are not official teachings of the Church regarding Faith and Morals. And yes, I certainly do think those decisions can be unwise or imprudent and it’s happened before in the history of the Church.

And as you mentioned wise Popes I agree with your implication. That there can be unwise Popes. (The one we have now is wise.)

 

[Brother_John]

(The one we have now is wise.)

And, JPII was ???

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

And, JPII was ???

I was not trying to make a statement about Pope John Paul II.

 

[Jeanette_L]

And, JPII was ???

Exactly. I don’t really think I have anymore to say, that says it all, and it’s very sad.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I was not trying to make a statement about Pope John Paul II.

But the whole outlook behind the TLM only movement is this very statement about Pope John Paul II. That’s what you just don’t get, or maybe you do.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

For the sake of clarity, for everyone’s sake, just what are you saying about Pope John Paul II. (SANTO SUBITO)
Deacon Ed B

 

[panoikei]

I can’t. I’m too clumsy.

At first I thought you were saying you were Polish or something, thinking I was making a Polish joke, which I wouldn’t. You do know our last Pope was Polish. So was our RCIA instructor. Good people. Faustina and someone else that I can’t think of right off hand. All three lived around the same place at the same time within a 50-100k distance apart.

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

At first I thought you were saying you were Polish or something, thinking I was making a Polish joke, which I wouldn’t. You do know our last Pope was Polish. So was our RCIA instructor. Good people. Faustina and someone else that I can’t think of right off hand. All three lived around the same place at the same time within a 50-100k distance apart.

You know, that was NOT what I was thinking, but I was thinking along the lines of something pretty stupid, anyway. I was thinking of the recent craze of pole dancing.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

But the whole outlook behind the TLM only movement is this very statement about Pope John Paul II. That’s what you just don’t get, or maybe you do.

I said I think Pope Benedict XVI is wise. By saying that I was not attempting to make statements about other Popes. I think Pope John Paul II will be named a Saint and I am glad he got the ball rolling, so to speak, by allowing the TLM with the Bishop’s permission.

 

[JReducation]

I said I think Pope Benedict XVI is wise. By saying that I was not attempting to make statements about other Popes. I think Pope John Paul II will be named a Saint and I am glad he got the ball rolling, so to speak, by allowing the TLM with the Bishop’s permission.

I not only believe that the man will be canonized, I also believe that we would be wise to study his mysticism more deeply. We may come to a deeper understanding of the Church and the liturgy. Maybe this debate can be put to rest.

This was not an unwise man or an unintelligent man. If he held on to the NO, there was something he saw in it. It would be wise to look for it.

JR

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I not only believe that the man will be canonized, I also believe that we would be wise to study his mysticism more deeply. We may come to a deeper understanding of the Church and the liturgy. Maybe this debate can be put to rest.

This was not an unwise man or an unintelligent man. If he held on to the NO, there was something he saw in it. It would be wise to look for it.

JR

I don’t think he was unwise and I certainly don’t think he was unintelligent. I also don’t think that there’s anything he’s written which will lay this debate to rest. I also recognize he inherited the Church in the state it was in and that any Pope’s vocation is tough. Further, he didn’t promulgate the Novus Ordo and I don’t think it was a case of him deciding to keep it as if he felt that just going back to the TLM was an actual option for him politically speaking.
I would also note, in my opinion, if either Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI had been in the Chair at the time of Pope Paul VI I don’t think either of them would have released the Novus Ordo (and I’d say definitely not in Pope Benedict’s case). In the case of Pope John Paul II at the very least I think he would have listened to those who were imploring the Pope not to suppress the TLM with the release of the NO.

 

[JReducation]

This is debate is getting tiresome, as it seems to be going around in circles. Just to clarify a few points and then move on.

When I used St. Francis the point I was trying to make is that one can have difference and still have sublime reverence. As to what St. Francis wrote, the answer is nothing on liturgy. He wrote of his love for the Eucharist. What we know about the way he and his brothers celebrated liturgy we know from his brothers understanding and what they practice in their effort to follow their founder’s example. We go back to the same point, there is difference, but there is also reverence and love for the Eucharist. They have preserved that for 800 years. Two very famous Franciscans who have not yet jumped and made the TLM their official form of celebrating the liturgy are both very holy men and bishops, Archbishop Charles Chaput, OFM, Cap and Cardinal Sean O’Malley, OFM, Cap. Both men are very holy and have a deep love and respect for the Eucharist and the liturgy. They also have a great love and respect for their Franciscan tradition. In fact, Cardinal O’Malley only wears his brown habit, not the red robes of a Cardinal. They are excellent examples of people who can bring the traditional and the new together without conflict.

As to whether or not I’m a scholar, I wouldn’t call myself one. I would simply say that I am well educated on this matter and have another perspective to bring to the table. That’s it. There are people are this thread who know about my history, not from me, because they have never met me, but from others with whom I have worked in ministry and missions.

Referring to Latin America, people make associations. This is a psychological reality. When people walk into a building that was built by those who oppressed them, it brings back memories, very negative memories. No one said that the clergy or the religious abused or oppressed the people of Latin America. It is true that the magnificent basilicas and cathedrals of Latin America were funded by the aristocratic and wealthy land owners who kept the poor “in their place” for centuries. This is what comes to people’s mind. John Paul II helped build a bridge for the poor in Latin America. They trusted him and they followed him. Millions of young people returned to the Church inspired by him, though his simplicity and his respect for their pastoral needs and their culture. He put people first. I don’t see Benedict doing anything differently. He may not have the pastoral experience that John Paul had, because he has been a scholar most of his life, but he is sensitive to people.

This is the last I’m going to say along this line. I would like to see this thread move toward the practical implementation of the TLM. There are many things that people take for granted, but are not so simple. I’ll present them in another post.

JR

 

[JReducation]

Since I started this thread, I’m going to take the liberty of shifting it in a slightly different direction. Those who would like to stay are welcome to do so. I believe that we have beaten this horse to a pulp. I’m referring to the strengths of the TLM over the NO. Let’s bite into some issues that have to do with the practical. I’m going to begin with a few simple questions that all of us need to answer for ourselves, just to make sure that we understand the pragmatics of implementing the TLM.

Please understand that I’m not building a case against the TLM. I’m building a case for cooperation and charity.

1. Does everyone realize that implementing the TLM in every parish can cause a great inconvenience not only to pastors but to bishops too?
2. Are we aware that not only must the bishops agree to implement the TLM in every parish, but religious superiors as well?
3. Do we understand the difference between a secular priest and a religious priest?
4. Have we kept in mind that in the USA there are more religious priests than secular priests?
5. Do we know that religious do not have to run parishes if they do not want to do so?
6. Are we aware that religious need permission of the bishop to operate in his diocese and they run those parishes according to his policies?
7. Does everyone know that religious do owe obedience to the bishop only in matters pertaining to the ministry that they perform in his name, but they can choose not to perform this ministry as long as their superior approves?
8. Do we know that a bishop is not the authority in an Order of Pontifical Right?
9. Are we keeping in mind that if a conflict develops within a religious community over the TLM the superior can decided to end the conflict by surrendering the parish back to the bishop?
10. Do we understand how catastrophic it can be for a parish for a religious order to suddenly abandon it?
11. How many of us are aware that a bishop cannot force a religious order to run a parish for him?
12. Has anyone noticed that religious orders are getting many more vocations than dioceses are, with some exceptions?
13. Does everyone know that some religious orders are now limiting the number of men that they will allow to become priests? In other words, once a man takes solemn vows or perpetual vows, he is stuck in the religious order and may never be ordained, if the superior decides against it.
14. Have we taken inventory of the number of parishes that make up a diocese and there would have to be at least one priest willing to celebrate a TLM for each parish and we many not have those numbers, especially if we count the number of parishes in the USA and other ministries in which priests are engaged, such as teaching, hospital work, military, youth ministry, social service, administration and other?
15. Is it fair to place demands on bishops and religious superiors to have a TLM in every parish when this may cause division among the priests or religious or should we be willing to compromise and settle for some parishes?
16. Do we want to cause division among religious communities or among secular priests? Is it fair?
17. Should we be more patient and let things evolve to where we want to go and let the Holy Spirit be God instead of us trying to do his job?
18. Can we state what we want to religious superiors and bishops, with humility and accept that they are doing the best they can with the resources that they have?
19. In the case of religious, do we know the difference between a congregation, an order and an apostolic society?
20. In the case of religious, are we aware that most orders are not clerical, even though they have many priests, but they are fraternal?
21. Do we understand that the bishop must negotiate with the religious, if he does not have enough secular priests to run his parishes?
22. Are we aware that in the USA there are many immigrant Catholics who want to hold on to mass in their language, especially Hispanics?
23. How would taking away a Spanish language mass to replace it with TLM appear to Hispanic Catholics who make up one of the largest Catholic groups in the USA?
24. How do we handle ethnic issues, religious order, congregations, apostolic societies and the shortage of secular priests and introduce TLM in every parish in the USA, without internal conflict?

Thanks for thinking through this.

JR

 

[DustinsDad]

…23. How would taking away a Spanish language mass to replace it with TLM appear to Hispanic Catholics who make up one of the largest Catholic groups in the USA?

At the TLM I attend, amidst the familiar red English-Latin missals, there are also found white Spanish-Latin missals. Strangely enough - the mass offered is the same for both !

And there are, apparently, some Spanish speaking members sitting alongside me at mass. The language barrier just isn’t that apparent since we are all talking to God and not to each other.

Just something to think about.

About the rest - sure, there are some difficulties to overcome as the TLM becomes more readily available to the faithful. But how does the old saying go - the journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

One step at a time my friend, one step at a time!

And peace in Christ!

DustinsDad

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

Since I started this thread, I’m going to take the liberty of shifting it in a slightly different direction. Those who would like to stay are welcome to do so. I believe that we have beaten this horse to a pulp. I’m referring to the strengths of the TLM over the NO. Let’s bite into some issues that have to do with the practical. I’m going to begin with a few simple questions that all of us need to answer for ourselves, just to make sure that we understand the pragmatics of implementing the TLM.

Please understand that I’m not building a case against the TLM. I’m building a case for cooperation and charity.

1. Does everyone realize that implementing the TLM in every parish can cause a great inconvenience not only to pastors but to bishops too?
2. Are we aware that not only must the bishops agree to implement the TLM in every parish, but religious superiors as well?
3. Do we understand the difference between a secular priest and a religious priest?
4. Have we kept in mind that in the USA there are more religious priests than secular priests?
5. Do we know that religious do not have to run parishes if they do not want to do so?
6. Are we aware that religious need permission of the bishop to operate in his diocese and they run those parishes according to his policies?
7. Does everyone know that religious do owe obedience to the bishop only in matters pertaining to the ministry that they perform in his name, but they can choose not to perform this ministry as long as their superior approves?
8. Do we know that a bishop is not the authority in an Order of Pontifical Right?
9. Are we keeping in mind that if a conflict develops within a religious community over the TLM the superior can decided to end the conflict by surrendering the parish back to the bishop?
10. Do we understand how catastrophic it can be for a parish for a religious order to suddenly abandon it?
11. How many of us are aware that a bishop cannot force a religious order to run a parish for him?
12. Has anyone noticed that religious orders are getting many more vocations than dioceses are, with some exceptions?
13. Does everyone know that some religious orders are now limiting the number of men that they will allow to become priests? In other words, once a man takes solemn vows or perpetual vows, he is stuck in the religious order and may never be ordained, if the superior decides against it.
14. Have we taken inventory of the number of parishes that make up a diocese and there would have to be at least one priest willing to celebrate a TLM for each parish and we many not have those numbers, especially if we count the number of parishes in the USA and other ministries in which priests are engaged, such as teaching, hospital work, military, youth ministry, social service, administration and other?
15. Is it fair to place demands on bishops and religious superiors to have a TLM in every parish when this may cause division among the priests or religious or should we be willing to compromise and settle for some parishes?
16. Do we want to cause division among religious communities or among secular priests? Is it fair?
17. Should we be more patient and let things evolve to where we want to go and let the Holy Spirit be God instead of us trying to do his job?
18. Can we state what we want to religious superiors and bishops, with humility and accept that they are doing the best they can with the resources that they have?
19. In the case of religious, do we know the difference between a congregation, an order and an apostolic society?
20. In the case of religious, are we aware that most orders are not clerical, even though they have many priests, but they are fraternal?
21. Do we understand that the bishop must negotiate with the religious, if he does not have enough secular priests to run his parishes?
22. Are we aware that in the USA there are many immigrant Catholics who want to hold on to mass in their language, especially Hispanics?
23. How would taking away a Spanish language mass to replace it with TLM appear to Hispanic Catholics who make up one of the largest Catholic groups in the USA?
24. How do we handle ethnic issues, religious order, congregations, apostolic societies and the shortage of secular priests and introduce TLM in every parish in the USA, without internal conflict?

Thanks for thinking through this.

JR

But… but… then we won’t have the fun of writing snarky letters to our priests and bishops!

This will be yet another opportunity for those people who are attending illicit Masses to show their true colors. They’ll either do as you’ve suggested above, or they’ll pitch hissy fits and fan the flames of scandal and detraction.

 

[JReducation]

At the TLM I attend, amidst the familiar red English-Latin missals, there are also found white Spanish-Latin missals. Strangely enough - the mass offered is the same for both !

And there are, apparently, some Spanish speaking members sitting alongside me at mass. The language barrier just isn’t that apparent since we are all talking to God and not to each other.

Just something to think about.

About the rest - sure, there are some difficulties to overcome as the TLM becomes more readily available to the faithful. But how does the old saying go - the journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

One step at a time my friend, one step at a time!

And peace in Christ!

DustinsDad

I have no argument against what you are saying. I threw this question in, because I have run inot three people on CAF who have asked their pastors to replace the Spanish language mass with the TLM, when there are four or five English language masses and only one in Spanish.

JR

 

[JReducation]

But… but… then we won’t have the fun of writing snarky letters to our priests and bishops!

This will be yet another opportunity for those people who are attending illicit Masses to show their true colors. They’ll either do as you’ve suggested above, or they’ll pitch hissy fits and fan the flames of scandal and detraction.

You lost me Bro

 

[DustinsDad]

I have no argument against what you are saying. I threw this question in, because I have run inot three people on CAF who have asked their pastors to replace the Spanish language mass with the TLM, when there are four or five English language masses and only one in Spanish.

JR

I see what you are saying. With so many English masses already offered, seems better to offer the TLM in one of their slots. Best yet - just ask the priest if it would be possible to bring the TLM in and go from there…get his (name removed by moderator)ut rather than, “Hey, let’s get rid of X and plug Y in that slot.” That’s kind of putting the cart before the horse.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[catharina]

Since I started this thread, I’m going to take the liberty of shifting it in a slightly different direction. Those who would like to stay are welcome to do so. I believe that we have beaten this horse to a pulp. I’m referring to the strengths of the TLM over the NO. Let’s bite into some issues that have to do with the practical. I’m going to begin with a few simple questions that all of us need to answer for ourselves, just to make sure that we understand the pragmatics of implementing the TLM.

Please understand that I’m not building a case against the TLM. I’m building a case for cooperation and charity.

…
…

Excellent points for consideration, JR. Thank you.

If I might suggest this? It’s possible that many of us are more familiar with the designations “religious priests” (those in communitites, etc) and “diocesan priests” (that perhaps you are calling "secular priests). I’m only looking for clarification of the term you’ve used.

Now, I’ll add this. Yesterday I attended the funeral of my dear brother John, held at our childhood parish in Chicago. Many of those in attendance were “from the neighborhood,” meaning we grew up together as cradle Catholics in that parish, fifty, sixty and seventy years ago. Nearly all of the boys, now grandfathers, were altar boys at only Latin Masses through their young adulthood. The Mass yesterday was NO and I saw no lack of reverence among those attending Mass. I’d say we were as reverent and as grateful and as grace-filled and as touched as we were at any Latin Mass in our younger years. It was a rather large gathering at the parish, maybe two hundred-plus people from a few babies to a number of the truly elderly. It was beautiful and reverent to an absolute degree. The priest, a blessing to the parish, is so humble and simple; his devout reverence and devotion was apparent to all. Those of us who were blessed to be at this Mass recognized the great grace. I’m beginning to think that often we find the reverence at Mass that we have brought with us to the Mass. My brother’s death was sudden. The Mass completed our good-bye to him, as did the Latin Mass offered for the death of our oldest brother some forty-plus years ago. Blessed be God. Blessed be HIs Holy Name.