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MarcoPolo
Guest
Why not?
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MarcoPolo
Guest
There is nothing in this passage that says no one gets purified. If I say to you that I went to college and graduated, are you going to argue that nothing transpired between going to college and graduating? Then why do you argue from the above text that nothing can occur between death and judgment?
As well, if God judges someone worthy of heaven but He will purify them first, then neither does the passage contradict purgatory. You do understand that Purgatory is a state of sanctification, do you not? Catechism of the Catholic Church #1032. We are sinful and fallen here on earth. In heaven we are not. So to go from point A to point B means there will be a transformation, a change. We Catholics call that Purgatory and it as Biblical as every other passage in Scripture about sanctification is.
Hebrews 12:7-10 says that the sons of God need to be disciplined for the sake of their holiness. Now why would God need people who are already his sons to be made holier? Why would they need sanctification if what you believe is true?
Rather, the Catholic notion of purification even right up to the moment before entering heaven is firmly and soundly founded in Scripture.
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EricFilmer
Guest
I’m sorry to hear that.
Although you have not used the term Sola Scriptura (“Scripture Alone”), evidently you are an adherent of it (based on the implication of your above statement). In other words, you reject Christian doctrines that you feel are not expressly stated in the Bible.
If it turns out that you are not an adherent of Sola Scriptura then why demand Catholic teachings to be expressly stated in the Bible in order to be valid?
If you are an adherent of Sola Scriptura then (to use your terminology) I want to know where the teaching of Sola Scriptura is found in the Bible. In other words, I want to see whether or not Sola Scriptura passes its own test. If it is unable to validate itself, then it cannot be a reliable method of determining the validity of other Christian teachings.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
Does anyone else here find this statement ironic?
As for the first comment, do you not see that your reasoning is circular. You say that you do not accept Maccabees as scripture (and the other deuterocanonical books) because they are “not scripture.”
You reject the deuterocanonicals because they were rejected by the Jews; but the jews also rejected the four Gospels and the other 23 books of the NT. Do you reject those as well?
You state there are historical inaccuracies, but there are other books of the OT that are not written as historically accurate. In addition, scripture itself was not written to be a history book, but to impart theological truths. So, historical inaccuracies anywhere in scripture are not reasons for discounting its potential inspiration.
I find little of what you say to be persuasive. And it appears to me that you have been confronted with lots of reasoned explanations for the Catholic doctrines you rejected. Yet you’ve made no effective attempt to refute. It appears to me that you need to spend a little more time reading and studying the faith you claim you left behind.
Peace,
Robert
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GreggAlvarez
Guest
Ok… Let us take a more logical approach to this.
There are 2 separately distinct Bible canons which are claimed by their respective adherents to be the inspired Word of God: Catholic Canon (73 books) and Protestant Canon (66 books). Right? Ok.
(I will not refer to the historical fact that Luther took those books out of the Bible. That fact is irrelevant to my argument.)
Now, you clearly adhere to the Protestant Canon because of some authority outside the Bible. This is true because nowhere in itself (Bible) does it say, “Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, etc…” So, somebody had to compile them.
So, whose authority do you accept? Clearly, you think there is an authority outside the Bible. Rightly so. Even the Bible indicates that.
"As the Father has sent me, so I send you." How did the Father send Christ? With authority. How did Christ send His 12 Apostles? With authority. How do the Apostles send the next bishops? With authority.
So, I ask again: Whose authority do you trust? Are they ones advocating Sola Scriptura when they themselves assume their authority of interpretation over anybody else’s?
If you are trying to figure out who is wrong by only the Bible, how would you know if both brought reasonable and Scriptural cases? With Sola Scriptura, you cannot do it. Anybody’s doctrine is as good as anybody else’s.
I can easily make up a doctrine with a Scripture verse to back it up. Problem is, a Sola Scripturist cannot tell me I am wrong because they will assume their own authority is better than mine. Or that their Scripture verse is better than mine. Or that their interpretation is better than mine.
So, are you going to trust the one who preaches Sola Scriptura but practices authority? Or the one who preaches only what Christ has given to us?
The Bible also says, “This is my Body” but you probably do not believe it. If you do, then you are not too far from the pillar and foundation of the Truth: The Catholic Church.
The Bible also says, “Hold fast to the traditions that I have past on to you.”
The Bible also says, “For we are justified by works and not by faith alone.”
The Bible also says, “Whoever hears you hears me.”
The Bible also says, “You are Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my Church.”
The Bible also says, “Whoever sins you forgive are forgiven and whoever sins you retain are retained.”
Notice how I put those last 3 together. This is a clear indication of the authority of the Apostles and the primacy of Peter. You cannot deny this, for even your incomplete Bible has these verses.
Lastly, the Bible also says, “Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven.”
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YADA
Guest
Well said
…Noo … Please read and ponder in your heart [as Mary did] this post … takr time to contemplate on the questions and passages quoted …
You know in your heart of hearts that the truth is found here … that is why the Spirit lead you to this place …
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pablope
Guest
So, where did you get the idea for this statement of yours?
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So, where is this in the Bible?
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Cinette
Guest
*Hello Noobio!
In your new found faith do you believe that if a murderer who was repentant died on the same day as say, Mother Teresa, would the murderer go straight to heaven with M. Teresa? Would there be no need to atone for his mortal sin? Do you believe that his repentance is enough? Would he be purified?
By the way, before you left the CC to join your new Protestant Church were you fully catechized? Did you know your Catechism and your Catholic Faith? Or should I say did you think you knew your Catholic Faith?
Cinette
*
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Cinette
Guest
*I see now that you cannot actually classify yourself as “Protestant” although you are protesting against the Church by removing yourself.
Did you ever check out your doubts with a Priest?
Did you ever come across Matthews 16:18-19? If so, how do you interpret it?
Cinette
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PiousTemplar
Guest
This thread is a joke. A so called ‘former Catholic’ as usual won’t be open minded and accept a different point of view. Of course, he would have the authority of saying which books of the bible are and are not inspired. (note the sarcasm) The Bible is CATHOLIC, as the CATHOLIC CHURCH put it together. I’m sorry if your protestant denomination likes to somehow, ‘disreguard’ the fact that Luther liked to change the books, even though it contradicts Revelation.
I highly doubt he is a former catholic.
As Jesus told us,
Dust our shoes and move on.
I highly doubt he is a former catholic.
As Jesus told us,
Dust our shoes and move on.
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steve_b
Guest
I hope you’re not basing belief on whether words and terms are specifically found in the bible or you won’t believe in the bible because you won’t find “bible” in the bible, nor Trinity, nor incarnation, etc etc
- Re: Purgatory, when does 1 Cor 3:15 take place? What does on “the Day” mean? What’s described there is not heaven and it’s not hell. Where is it and how long does the process last?
- Re: praying for the dead. Do you believe the soul is immortal and can’t die?
- Re: infant baptism, where is it prohibited?
- Re: extra books. There are no extra books.
- Re: wrong titles for Mary. There are no wrong titles.
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steve_b
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Who told you it isn’t scripture? And why do you take their word for it?
n:
66 books isn’t the canon. It’s 73 books.
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ChristMySavior
Guest
Historical inaccuracies? Please give some evidence. It’s easy to make empty statements. Also, is the book of Genesis purely and accurately historical??
I have one simple question for you. How do you know that the 27 books of the NT are those that are supposed to be in the NT?
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MarkBrown
Guest
The first statement/paragraph…there is always a choice.
Let’s combine the second two paragraphs. You state one must repent and turn from sins and this is rebirth. No one gets to heaven unless they repent. As Jesus tells us, “no one comes to the Father except through me.”
Babies do not need to be baptized. But they have original sin, you do believe in original sin? They die with out repenting. They get to go straight to heaven. No need for repenting of sin or baptism. Correct? How does your theology answer the need for cleansing original sin? Abram the cleansing came with circumcision. God has always required a cleansing. Circumcision, Passover Lamb, The Lamb of Christ, Baptism. Now He, God, only requires what…a simple sinners prayer?
Also, you need review of Jewish esctology. When heaven is described in the Old testament, such as with Isaiah, only God and the Angels are mentioned. Only after the resurrection do we see heaven populated with believers or the saved if you will. Sheol was the Jewish afterlife. A place in sheol, Abramham’s bosum or paradise, was the place of purification and waiting for the Messiah. That is where David’s son went according to David.
Jesus does mention purgatory. Gehenna is, according to some Christian and Jewish scholar/Rabbis, Gehinnom or Gehinnam. Jewish words for a state or location of a purging fire. So Jesus does talk about purgatory. Starting in the 4th Century with the “gothic bible” scribes have transliterated or began using hell for hades, gehenna, sheol and confusing the terms and reader.
I was a Baptist and Anglican minister. IN seminary we were shown how to “reason with catholics” from the scriptures. Basically how to confuse poorly catechised catholics and believe me there are more of them than properly catechised. When I meet “former catholics” it reminds me of my former sin and saddens me to know another has been led astray.
Mark
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steve_b
Guest
Here’s the actual scripture passage.
1 Cor 3:
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14* If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward*. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Therefore, this process Paul is talking about, is only for a soul who will be saved . It is NOT for the soul who is damned.
When Paul talks of fire burning away the bad and leaves the good, that by definition is describing a purifying process. It doesn’t matter that you don’t agree with it,. Catholics call this process purgatory because there is a purging and purifying of the soul AFTER death of the body, and Paul clearly taught it.
- the body dies but the soul is immortal. The soul doesn’t die, it doesn’t sleep. So immediately after death of the body, only a soul who is saved, goes through this purifying process before it can enter heaven. Because NOTHING unclean will enter heaven, (Rev 21:27)
- the soul that is condemned goes directly to hell.
Purgatory is there. Plain as Day.
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Little_Mary
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I have the same question for him. Waiting…
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Randy_Carson
Guest
I’m starting to get the impression that you do not understand Purgatory.
When a person dies, he or she faces God for the “particular” judgment of his or her life. At that point, there are only two possibilities of one’s eternal destiny: Heaven or Hell.
If one is going to hell, then one is bound to spend eternity in suffering. However, if one is judged to be heaven-bound, then there are two routes that one might take. One might go directly into heaven, or one might need to take a shower and put on a clean outfit before into into the throne room of the king.
Now, we may pray that someone’s time in Purgatory might be shortened, and this works through the Church’s treasury of merits, but one CANNOT change the fact that God has already judged the person to be bound for heaven. This was explained in post #5.
In other words, WE ARE NOT BEGGING GOD TO CHANGE HIS MIND.
Now, given the fact that you obviously misunderstood the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory before you abandoned the Catholic Church for a lesser, subset of the Gospel, will you return to the fullness of the truth now that you know you were in error?
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ChristMySavior
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I have a feeling we aren’t going to get the answer because there would have to be an admission that the CC led by the Holy Spirit selected the NT canon circa 397-398.
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noobio
Guest
If there is any contridiction in the Bible that means it is not the word of God. I have not seen any so far. Also, the story of Adam and eve don’t have to be completly true. All you need to understand is that sin came into the world by man.
Why do people always mention Luther? I am not a protestand! I only follow the teaching of the Bible.
“You have rejected the authority of Christ’s Church that has stood in every centruy, decade, year and day for your own personal, man-made opinions.”
Are you talking about the Cathloic church? The church is the body of Christ! The Church refers to the people. These are the people who have a releation ship with Christ. Also, your Cathloic church has teachings that contridict the Bible. So why would I listen to them?
The first Christian teachings did not come from the church but from were recorded in the NT.
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noobio
Guest
My Cathloic priest and Cathloic encyclopedia. But purgatory is not in the Bible
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