Is catholicism biblical

[noobio]

I will give my reasons for denying the extra books the Cathloic use.

Contridicts Scripture

• The book of Sirach teaches almsgiving makes atonement for sins ( Sirach 3:3-30)
  The book of Leviticus says you can only have atonement for sins through blood. ( Leviticus 17:11-18) As you can see there is two diffrent methods here. And only the blood can atone you.

-Sirach teaches you can be justifed by works. But Galatians 2:16 refutes that by saying " A man is not justified by the law".

-Tobit 12:9 teaches you can purge sins without using blood. Christ is the only way ( John 3:16). Hebrew 9:14 teaches that sins can not be forgiven without the blood of Christ.

There is other contridictons.

In the book of Tobit there is a historical inaccuracy Tobit claims he had witnessed Jeroboam revolt and Assyria conquring Isreal. These events were seperated by 200 years. Tobit’s life span was 158 years. Also, the angel tells Tobias to do perform magic to get rid of the spirits.

Many early Christians leader did not accept it as scripture. For example Ambrose, Amphilochus, Athanasius, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nanzianzus, Jerome, Melito of Sardis, and Origen.

The 7 books were not scripture but addition to the Bible.

I know that there is only 66 books because they do not contridict eachother, they were written by prophets, the books were accepted as God’s word by the people when they were written.

 

[noobio]

I’m starting to get the impression that you do not understand Purgatory.

When a person dies, he or she faces God for the “particular” judgment of his or her life. At that point, there are only two possibilities of one’s eternal destiny: Heaven or Hell.

If one is going to hell, then one is bound to spend eternity in suffering. However, if one is judged to be heaven-bound, then there are two routes that one might take. One might go directly into heaven, or one might need to take a shower and put on a clean outfit before into into the throne room of the king.

Now, we may pray that someone’s time in Purgatory might be shortened, and this works through the Church’s treasury of merits, but one CANNOT change the fact that God has already judged the person to be bound for heaven. This was explained in post #5.

In other words, WE ARE NOT BEGGING GOD TO CHANGE HIS MIND.

Now, given the fact that you obviously misunderstood the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory before you abandoned the Catholic Church for a lesser, subset of the Gospel, will you return to the fullness of the truth now that you know you were in error?

I did not even use hebrew 9:27 to disprove purgatory. It does not matter how you justify purgatory. If it is not in the Bible then it is not biblical.

 

[noobio]

There is nothing in this passage that says no one gets purified. If I say to you that I went to college and graduated, are you going to argue that nothing transpired between going to college and graduating? Then why do you argue from the above text that nothing can occur between death and judgment?

As well, if God judges someone worthy of heaven but He will purify them first, then neither does the passage contradict purgatory. You do understand that Purgatory is a state of sanctification, do you not? Catechism of the Catholic Church #1032. We are sinful and fallen here on earth. In heaven we are not. So to go from point A to point B means there will be a transformation, a change. We Catholics call that Purgatory and it as Biblical as every other passage in Scripture about sanctification is.

Hebrews 12:7-10 says that the sons of God need to be disciplined for the sake of their holiness. Now why would God need people who are already his sons to be made holier? Why would they need sanctification if what you believe is true?

Rather, the Catholic notion of purification even right up to the moment before entering heaven is firmly and soundly founded in Scripture.

Hebrews does not say you get purified. In fact, it talks about the suffiency of Christ ( which basicly refutes purgatory). Prove that there is a place were we get purified or prepared into heaven using the Bible. Also, Hebrews suggest that we go into judgement right after we die. What else would there be?

 

[noobio]

Ok. I agree with you. We should follow more holy books. We should follow the book of Mormon, the Quran, and the Hindu scripiture. Why don’t cathloics do this?

Also, what you said does not support purgatoryu.

 

[noobio]

I am not sure if they are Cathloics or not. But, they were early Christians who denied the extra books.

 

[noobio]

*Hello Noobio!

In your new found faith do you believe that if a murderer who was repentant died on the same day as say, Mother Teresa, would the murderer go straight to heaven with M. Teresa? Would there be no need to atone for his mortal sin? Do you believe that his repentance is enough? Would he be purified?

By the way, before you left the CC to join your new Protestant Church were you fully catechized? Did you know your Catechism and your Catholic Faith? Or should I say did you think you knew your Catholic Faith?

Cinette *

If the person repented which means to turn away from your sins and accepted Christ, the person will go to heaven. Getting purified after death is not neccesary for the belever because the believer is ALREADY PURIFIED THROUGH THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. Why cant Cathloics understand this?

Also, you did not refute me.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

I officially declare noobio to be true to his name.
Noobio… you are a Noob, a newb, a newbie, a internet slang word for novice.

Good day sir,
Phil

 

[noobio]

*I see now that you cannot actually classify yourself as “Protestant” although you are protesting against the Church by removing yourself.

Did you ever check out your doubts with a Priest?

Did you ever come across Matthews 16:18-19? If so, how do you interpret it?

Cinette*

I have read the passage. I don’t see how it proves anything. Can you interpret if for me?

 

[joe370]

Hey noobio…

I am now a former Cathloic. I had a lot of problems with the cathloic teachings such as purgatory…

Well, you’ve got to follow your heart, and if your heart is leading you somewhere else, so be it. No doubt you have already rejected the traditional passages that catholics use to support purgatory, but surely you must agree with what scripture states in Revelation 21:27, “But nothing unclean shall enter it [Heaven].” And Hebrews 12:14 which echoes the same theme of the need to be sinless in order to enter Heaven: “Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

It just seems logical if a person who dies, and still has some attachment to sin, (UNCLEAN, which seems to include almost everyone) - but that is not bad enough to go to hell is going to experience some sort of spiritual cleansing or purging process, to prepare them to be perfectly clean before entering Heaven. The CC simply gave it a name just as the CC did with the God Head, which brings to mind: where does the bible claim that the father and the holy spirit are one or that the son and the holy spirit are one, if in fact you embrace the catholic teaching of the Trinity? If you feel that you are perfectly immaculate/clean and holy then I suppose these verses don’t apply to you; I know they DON’T apply to me, considering what God’s standard of immaculate must, as per scripture.

praying for the dead

I thought God was the God of the living not of the dead?

"But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Catholics don’t ask dead people to pray for them; catholics ask living people to pray. for them, both on earth and in heaven.

infent babtism

Perhaps I overlooked it; where, in the following passage does it exclude infants: "And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us saying, “If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into mine house and abide there.” Acts 16:15

extra books ( apocrypha) wrong titles given to Mary and other teachings. I just want to know where are some of these teachings are found in the Bible.

Please show me where the various 4th century CC councils, who codified your New Testament, rejected those 7 Old Testament books?My research shows that they embraced them.

Marian titles:

Which ones, and which “other teachings?”

I pretty sure that you believe the CC is the church founded by God, and Paul calls the Church the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1 Tim 3:15). If the CC is the pillar and foundation of truth then how can the CC, forever guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth be lead astray by Satan or the sinful members of the CC? Noobio, if this verse said that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth it would be the classic proof text for sola scriptura proponents to prove the inerrancy (and sole sufficiency) of Scripture, so why can’t the same thing be said about Jesus’ church, given the fact that this verse is in fact applied to Jesus’ church? This verse, if applied to scripture, would certainly argue that it is impossible for something that God’s Word calls the very pillar and foundation of the truth to teach fundamental doctrinal or moral error to God’s people. And I agree, and this same line of reasoning should receive its due force as applied to the Church; seem reasonable???

 

[MarcoPolo]

Hebrews does not say you get purified.

Yes it does. And as long as we’re at it, need for holiness and purification is taught in a number of places in Scripture. James 4:8, Heb. 12:10, Heb 9:14, 1 Pet 1:22, etc…

 

[MarcoPolo]

• The book of Sirach teaches almsgiving makes atonement for sins ( Sirach 3:3-30)
  The book of Leviticus says you can only have atonement for sins through blood. ( Leviticus 17:11-18) As you can see there is two diffrent methods here. And only the blood can atone you.

So which of Paul’s statements here is correct:

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith…
Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by His blood…

And would you agree that love (which can be exercised in the form of almsgiving) also covers your sins as well? Or would that be a contradiction of Scripture?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Many early Christians leader did not accept it as scripture. For example Ambrose, Amphilochus, Athanasius, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nanzianzus, Jerome, Melito of Sardis, and Origen.

On this point, let me commend you for appealing to the authority of the early Church to determine your canon of Scripture. For sacred Tradition is a divinely guided enterprise.

But second, if I could demonstrate to you that most if not all of the above names received as divinely inspired texts the Deutercanonical books, would you renounce your position and accept them as divinely inspired as well?

 

[joe370]

Noobie, regarding post 79, I accidentally inserted the word DON’T: Excerpt:

If you feel that you are perfectly immaculate/clean and holy then I suppose these verses don’t apply to you; I know they DON’T apply to me, considering what God’s standard of immaculate must, as per scripture.

I meant to say that they do apply to me…Oop’s…

 

[Robert_in_SD]

If there is any contridiction in the Bible that means it is not the word of God. I have not seen any so far. Also, the story of Adam and eve don’t have to be completly true. All you need to understand is that sin came into the world by man.

Why do you believe that is “all you need to understand” from Genesis? Who told you that, and why do you give such an extrabiblical source such authority if you “only go by the bible?”

noobio:

Why do people always mention Luther? I am not a protestand! I only follow the teaching of the Bible.

Because “sola scriptura” was one of his pillars for launching the reformation. It appears to be the bedrock doctrine of your brand of christianity. Are you saying you are not a believer in the bible alone?

“You have rejected the authority of Christ’s Church that has stood in every centruy, decade, year and day for your own personal, man-made opinions.”

No. I hold to the Apostolic faith of the early church fathers that comes to us from Christ. Have YOU abandoned the faith for something manmade?

noobio:

Are you talking about the Cathloic church? The church is the body of Christ! The Church refers to the people. These are the people who have a releation ship with Christ. Also, your Cathloic church has teachings that contridict the Bible. So why would I listen to them?

The one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church founded by Christ with Peter and his successors as the earthly head of the Church that has Christ as its Head. The Church - of which all who receive baptism become a member, whether or not they are perfectly joined in union with it. The Church that has kept the Sacred Tradition that has been passed down from Christ to His Apostles through the teaching authority of their successor bishops from the first century to the twenty-first. The Church, of which all who bear the name christian are united. I believe that is the Church being referred to. And the fullness resides with those who are in union with the successor of Peter. Other christian communities hold - to lesser degrees - that same truth. To the extent they do not, they are partially separated.

noobio:

The first Christian teachings did not come from the church but from were recorded in the NT.

If they were not written down by members of the Church, then by whom were they recorded?

You are making some serious leaps in logic my friend. Perhaps you need to go back to do some more studying about what it is you believe, and about the reasons behind those beliefs.

Peace,
Robert

 

[GreggAlvarez]

**“Love bears all things.” ** ~ First Corinthians 13:7

You will see why I present that first.

I will give my reasons for denying the extra books the Cathloic use.

Contridicts Scripture

• The book of Sirach teaches almsgiving makes atonement for sins ( Sirach 3:3-30)
  The book of Leviticus says you can only have atonement for sins through blood. ( Leviticus 17:11-18) As you can see there is two diffrent methods here. And only the blood can atone you.

**“Above all, let your love for one another be intense, because love covers a multitude of sins.” ** 1 Peter 4:8. See also Proverbs 10:12; James 5:20; Proverbs 17:9; 1 Cor 13 entire chapter.

Sirach is clearly talking about love. And yes, you can only have atonement through blood, but that does not contradict “love covers a multitude of sins.” By your statement, you would take this as a contradiction!

-Sirach teaches you can be justifed by works. But Galatians 2:16 refutes that by saying " A man is not justified by the law".

"See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." ~ James 2:24

"Can that faith save you?" ~ James 2:14b

James is clearly talking about good works, that is works that are done in love and not just, “I have to give this money so I will.” That is cold. James is talking about love. It is not selfish. (see 1 Cor 13:5)

-Tobit 12:9 teaches you can purge sins without using blood. Christ is the only way ( John 3:16). Hebrew 9:14 teaches that sins can not be forgiven without the blood of Christ.

This is a deliberate falsification. You clearly did not read the verse. If you did, then I would question your ability to read.

**“for almsgiving saves one from death and expiates every sin. Those who regularly give alms shall enjoy a full life;” ** ~ Tobit 12:9

"Love covers all offenses." Proverbs 10:12

Any other “contradictions”, my friend?

 

[noobio]

I will stop responding because apperantly I am bieng a “noob”. I guess it doesn’t matter what group you are a part of as long as you trust in Christ

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I did not even use hebrew 9:27 to disprove purgatory. It does not matter how you justify purgatory. If it is not in the Bible then it is not biblical.

But, that is begging the question. The Bible does not say “Purgatory”; therefore, the Bible does not say “Purgatory”.

Logic, my friend. It is a great thing.

Anyway, this is what you say: “Even if you provide all the justification for this nonsense called Purgatory, I will still not believe you because it is not in the Bible.” This amounts to this: “If it is in the Bible, then it is not in the Bible.” OVERRIDE! If logic crimes can end the world, I better prepare myself.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

If the person repented which means to turn away from your sins and accepted Christ, the person will go to heaven. Getting purified after death is not neccesary for the belever because the believer is ALREADY PURIFIED THROUGH THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. Why cant Cathloics understand this?

Also, you did not refute me.

We do understand that we are purified by the Blood of Christ. Why can’t YOU understand this? You are disagreeing with a straw man here, noobio.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Hebrews does not say you get purified. In fact, it talks about the suffiency of Christ ( which basicly refutes purgatory). Prove that there is a place were we get purified or prepared into heaven using the Bible. Also, Hebrews suggest that we go into judgement right after we die. What else would there be?

Same here… We do believe in the sufficiency of Christ’s work (which refutes your straw man).

Tell me something in John 11:11-44. Where did Lazarus go when he died? It could not be Heaven, for that is a permanent place. It could not be Hell for that is a permanent place. If not Purgatory, then where?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Ok. I agree with you. We should follow more holy books. We should follow the book of Mormon, the Quran, and the Hindu scripiture. Why don’t cathloics do this?

Also, what you said does not support purgatoryu.

What is with the sarcasm? We do not denigrate your 66 books. We actually hold them up high!

In any event, that comment was unwarranted. And apparently, no proof from Scripture will convince you, whether or not it is right.

If you claim Sola Scriptura, then why do you assume your authority over anybody else’s?