Is Catholicism Dying?

[iloveangels]

I do feel that Catholism seems to be dying. My friends question why I am in RCIA and why I can’t be Methodist or Presbytarian instead of pursuing the Catholic religion and the Christian denomination people think Catholism is ******** because of the wider belief in Mary and the patron saints. Well I also am not sure why there is a Pope, why he is so deeply respected, isn’t God supposed to be the ONLY one we worship and pray to? Why use the Rosary? So many questions. It’s only my first month of RCIA.

Welcome to CAF, dluna. We’re glad you decided to join us in conversation.

 

[St_Donatus]

I do feel that Catholism seems to be dying. My friends question why I am in RCIA and why I can’t be Methodist or Presbytarian instead of pursuing the Catholic religion and the Christian denomination people think Catholism is ******** because of the wider belief in Mary and the patron saints. Well I also am not sure why there is a Pope, why he is so deeply respected, isn’t God supposed to be the ONLY one we worship and pray to? Why use the Rosary? So many questions. It’s only my first month of RCIA.

Welcome to our group and may God bless your efforts in learning his truths.

I will make a quick stab at answering your Pope question. Basically, Jesus told Peter that he was giving him authority over his Church on earth. He told him that God would bless the decisions he would make by making them binding and that the Devil would never be able to over throw his Church. There are many scriptures that discuss and prove this, but the most complete is at Matthew 18:17-20. When reading the scripture understand that the name ‘Peter’ means rock in the language Jesus used, so the ‘rock’ is ‘Peter’ himself.

Why did God feel it was necessary to make one man head of his Christian people on earth. Well think about it, what organization does well without a single strong leader, whether a good organization or a bad one. The US has one president, Napoleon almost conquered Europe, Hitler almost conquered the world, President Reagan lead the effort to over throw communism, Lenin started communism in Russian which spread throughout Asia, Churchill lead England through its most trying time during World War II, and Jesus Christ started the largest religion in history.

Look at the Methodist or Presbytarian. They do not have a Pope and people are leaving these church in droves. They just started a few hundred years ago and they are already dying. The Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years and is growing quickly, especially in Asia and Africa.

Why has the Catholic Church never changed its core teachings? Because God directs it through Holy Spirit which directs the religious rules made by the Pope.

Why is the Catholic Church many times larger than ALL of the protestant religions put together? Because God directs it through his Holy Spirit.

Last question, why does the Catholic Church have a Pope? Because Jesus commanded it to be that way, because God wants it that way, because God blesses his church because it is that way, and because each one of us is blessed by the decisions that come from God through the Pope, to us.

Remember that it was the Catholic Church that put together the Bible that all Christian religions use. The Pope requested this work himself. In effect, that means that if the Catholic Church didn’t have Popes, we wouldn’t have the Bible either.

Keep up the good work in your RCIA classes.

God Bless your search for Truth and may your look to God’s church for guidance.

 

[Domiy]

I apologise for bumping an older topic, but I only just recently had a chance to re-read responses here.

C’mon, it is all around us. Homosexuals trying to legitimize their relationships amongst the faithful. Atheists growing in very large numbers every day. More and more priests accused of sexual misconduct. Humanity in general, trying to excuse bad behavior at every turn. As a child of the 1980s I can say with clear recollection that I did not know of any homosexual people and would never, EVER, think that one day they demand to be married in the Church. I also never thought that people would be disbelievers in God. To me, that would have been too much. As for priests, I never heard of sexual abuse like this on any level.

Warnings from Fatima and other Church approved sightings dictate that we are in End Times friends. Hold on…

You are correct. Never has there been more ‘fear’ in the world ending than there is now, it’s undeniable. We are matching almost perfectly what the description of the end of times would be like. I can’t ever imagine how things could possibly get any worse for the Church or society in general. It alarms me a lot when I think about it. So much so that I sometimes feel that pursuing my education or relationship is just not a priority right now seeing as it will all seem almost irrelevant if what we expect comes true, ergo the top priority right now should be penance, conversion and prayer. Paying off a mortgage with a full time job and getting married, with the greatest respect to that choice in lifestyle, does not seem to at all phase me right now. Although that’s just me, I wouldn’t call it a definite truth.

Worldwide, we’re doing great, because there are a lot of conversions right now in Africa & Asia. The faith is fresh and new there and there is zeal for it. However, Europe and North America aren’t doing so hot. In fact, Europe and North America are falling flat on their faces in public. Latin America is holding its own.

I think this is because of the overall modern lifestyle in Europe and Americas. I once read a study (humorously one that an atheist directed me to in order to try downplay religion) that primarily atheist nations are much better off economically. It is a quite interesting study, although it’s important to remember (as he who directed me didn’t) that the article does not in any way suggest that atheism causes better results or religion causes negative results, but rather the other way around. This is true; a modern lifestyle, filled with temptations and evil (as the modern large nations are) will more often lead to many atheists and church numbers dropping. On the other hand, a poor economic lifestyle, with little to no access to modern technology, money, evil, strip clubs, drugs etc, will obviously do better for the spirituality of that country. As Jesus said, those who were first will be last, and those who were last will eventually be first. Glorious will be the day when the powerhouses that is the US and EU fall flat on their own faces (no offense intended).

 

[Nelka]

Glorious will be the day when the powerhouses that is the US and EU fall flat on their own faces (no offense intended).

Sounds nice but I think the antichrist will seduce these leaders to do his will.

 

[anthrogirl]

Catholism isn’t dying. We’re just doing it wrong. Belief in the creed, listening to the word and trying to live as Jesus has taught us, is no longer the focus of the men in charge. I think it’s driving away many people. People don’t want the church to tell them how to vote. People know that blasting away at abortion while not applying the same effort (time and money) to eradicating the death penalty is just a manuever not to anger people with money. We know that the Church is equally against both. Many Catholic are tired of the Church weilding power in ways that are counter to the path of Christ but very in line with the advancement of human need for relevance and control. A very well respected apologist on national radio and a leader of a large Catholic group in the US recently told catholics to leave if they disagreed with the church and remimded us what our Pope said, that a smaller church might be a better church. With prominent Catholics telling parishioners to take a hike, it’s a real possibility that the Church wll lose people by its own hand. To survive, we need to refocus. There’s hope that as the demographics of the Church changes, as the anglo-euro/american complexion fades, the Church will be forced to realign with its true mission. While I’m not holding my breath for any change soon, considering the wealth amassed in Rome, I’m hoping for the return of our Roman Church to the Catholic faith,

 

[knotanes]

Matthew 16:18

and

No.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Catholism isn’t dying. We’re just doing it wrong.

I have a great idea. How about you get in charge of the church and become popess Petra 1st and do it right.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I think this is because of the overall modern lifestyle in Europe and Americas. I once read a study (humorously one that an atheist directed me to in order to try downplay religion) that primarily atheist nations are much better off economically. It is a quite interesting study, although it’s important to remember (as he who directed me didn’t) that the article does not in any way suggest that atheism causes better results or religion causes negative results, but rather the other way around. This is true; a modern lifestyle, filled with temptations and evil (as the modern large nations are) will more often lead to many atheists and church numbers dropping. On the other hand, a poor economic lifestyle, with little to no access to modern technology, money, evil, strip clubs, drugs etc, will obviously do better for the spirituality of that country. As Jesus said, those who were first will be last, and those who were last will eventually be first. Glorious will be the day when the powerhouses that is the US and EU fall flat on their own faces (no offense intended).

In conclusion, we should throw Catholic Social Teaching/Justice out the window and cease all efforts to alleviate the well-being of the poor. That includes ceasing all aid in struggling Third World nations such as my own. Catholics here are no longer obliged to improve their standards of living and just be content with being poor and religious. Meanwhile, we should constantly pray for the destruction of the rich nations, hope they suffer for their wealth, and wish only misfortune upon their people.

According to you, the Spaniards were right and that the Indio should be happy with his carabao and not better his lot in life. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[anthrogirl]

@Contra. Having women play important roles such as priests, bishops, cardinals and pope would certainly have an impact on how the church ministers to the world. With a powerhouse women like Mother Teresa failing to impact Church policy for the better, it is obvious that women have very little to no influence on the direction of the Church. Your idea of including women is a good one and it’s supported by many Catholics.

 

[EphelDuath]

Remember 1 Kings 19, when after the worshipers of Ba’al had killed all of the priests in Israel, Elijah asked how God could have wrought this.

With zeal have I been zealous for the Lord God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken your covenant: they have destroyed your altars, they have slain your prophets with the sword; and I alone am left, and they seek my life to take it away. 15 And the Lord said to him: Go, and return on your way, through the desert, to Damascus: and when you have come thither, you shall anoint Hazael to be king over Syria; 16 and you shall anoint Jehu, the son of Namsi, to be king over Israel: and Eliseus, the son of Saphat, of Abelmeula, you shall anoint to be prophet in your room. 17 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall escape the sword of Hazael, shall be slain by Jehu: and whosoever shall escape the sword of Jehu, shall be slain by Eliseus. 18 And I will leave me seven thousand men in Israel, whose knees have not been bowed before Baal, and every mouth that has not worshipped him, kissing the hands.

 

[St_Donatus]

@Contra. Having women play important roles such as priests, bishops, cardinals and pope would certainly have an impact on how the church ministers to the world. With a powerhouse women like Mother Teresa failing to impact Church policy for the better, it is obvious that women have very little to no influence on the direction of the Church. Your idea of including women is a good one and it’s supported by many Catholics.

I notice that so many of these comments look at the Catholic Church as if the decisions are made by the clergy and the Vatican. This is incorrect. The decisions that guide the church were set up by Jesus two thousand years ago. Today the decisions are directed by Holy Spirit. Yes, the clergy and the Vatican can choose to disregard both but, at least on the basic beliefs of the church, they always are guided by God. That is why the basic teachings have not changed in two thousand years.

As far as influence on the church, can anyone say that the ‘Mother of God’ does not have a bit of influence on the direction of the church. What other religion puts so much emphasis, importance, and faith in a woman? I can’t think of any. Other than the mass, no other individual is accessed more than the Virgin Mary through the rosary, the Hail Holy Queen prayer, the Hail Mary prayer and others.

But the fact is, that if the Catholic Church is or ever was God’s religion, God would not allow its teachings to change. God created us and knows our needs, what is best for us, and what he wants from us in worship. God doesn’t change and neither does his way of worship. Yes, there are some things in any organization that need to change and adjust. The priests at the church I go to wear cassocks and in their pockets of that cassock, they carry Android smart phones.

Basically, if the major teachings of the church changed with the times like the Protestant religions, I would know that it isn’t inspired by God because obviously, if the teaching changes, it was wrong before. If it was wrong before, how do I know it is correct now and if it was wrong before, it wasn’t inspired by God and if it wasn’t inspired by God, is anything about the religion inspired by God. Finally, if I don’t know that anything from this religion is inspired by God, I don’t want to worship through a religion that is not guided by God.

That is why I converted to Catholicism and why I have faith that it is truly Gods representative on Earth.

 

[anthrogirl]

Wow St. Donatus. I’m very humbled by your dedication to our faith. I’m always in admiration of someone with such convictions. I once had that and I long for the time when little rocked my belief in the RCC. I’m happy to say that my belief in Jesus is as strong as ever. But I have to admit that my belief in our church is being tested. I continue to teach in our church’s religious ed program, vacation bible school and youth ministry and I feel that I’m an active member in my parish, but even this immersion has left me wanting.

I agree that the teachings of Jesus Christ are important, and what’s more important is our attempt at following his lead. St. Francis of Assisi chided his newly converted friend who went off to pray for several weeks. Assisi went and got him and told him to get off his knees and start working since God’s work is done by human hands. I love that story because it encourages me to get off my couch. It reminds me that the Bible and its predictions and promises will only be made true if we humans make it so. We are God’s hands and God does his work on this planet through us. But we also have free will and we are sinners, prone to taking the wrong path. Any exercise of the Catholic faith by humans will most certainly be fraught with “issues”. And this includes the upper management. I personally feel that the Catholic Church has lost its way. It’s catering to the wealthy in order to make budgets and it’s focusing on certain issues while virtually ignoring others. Pope John Paul came out strongly in support of environmental issues. He even used the scientific terms related to global warming. Can you imagine priests across the nation delivering strong messages on supporting the environment and global warming? Pope John Paul also came out strongly against the war in Iraq. Did we hear priests giving homilies telling parishioners to stand up against the war?

Our current pope is a very quiet pope although he’s managed to ruffle feathers by declaring the ordination of women as one of the gravest crimes against ecclesiastical law, putting it on par with priest pedophiles. We’re also attacking nuns, women on birth control, girl scouts and planned parenthood. Regardless of the Church’s true intent, its way of going about makes it appears that it’s attacking women. In addition, it’s always lobbied Congress but now it’s role as a political mover and shaker is becoming more and more obvious. By making a strong political showing in a time where politics is so divided, the Church is weakening its message. The we vs them mentality will force away many believers who can’t in good faith choose “we” in total. The gray area, the neutral zone, the middle ground is going away and the US Catholic Church has literally told these people to leave.

As far as Mary being hailed in our church as the most revered person after Jesus, you’re right. It gives credence to the fact that women are important to Jesus and like Mary and Mary M., we should be included in his ministry as priests. While the Church has declared all evidence of women priests in Catholic history as heretical, this evidence isn’t lost on many women who see the current all male structure as testosterone/power driven.

Lastly, I stopped going to Church for 6 months after the priest/child sex abuse scandal broke out. The fact that it happened and the fact that it was covered up is a shining example of how we as humans fail to manage God’s Church no matter what God’s message is. Priests are held to a higher standard than other people. Unlike lay people in similar jobs, they are called and touched by God. They should not be touching little kids. We had 5 pedophile priests cycle thru our church alone. But they are humans, just like the popes who have failed in the past and just like the clergy who will fail in the future. I know this. Sometimes our Church is in worse shape than usual. That’s when we need to stop, take a look at our ourselves, our objectives and realign to better accomplish our mission as set out by Christ. I think we need to do this now.

What I do love about the RCC is that it is made up of many voices with varying ideas about their Church. These can be read in articles and books, heard on the radio and TV, and talked about in the pews and over pot-luck dinners. There are many Catholics who feel as I do and this gives me hope. I teach Catholic youth and I hope that the message of Christ will inspire the future generation not to settle for what we have now but to build a church worthy of the Catholic teachings.

 

[StevenFrancis]

I live in the U.S. It seems like out of all of the people I know, only 20% or so believe in Christ. Out of those 20% only 5% are Roman Catholic. The rest are from other Christian denominations but used to be Roman Catholic a few years ago. The other 80% are atheist.

This is very sad. Also, the media doesn’t help showing all the negative aspects of the Church, such as pedophile priests and more. There was a report last night about a priest stealing valuable things from a store, and caught on surveillance camera.

How do you all feel about this? Is this just in my head, or are we Roman Catholics becoming scarce?

Hi jsaldar:

You’re observations are certainly accurate in places, but I wouldn’t draw any serious conclusions about the Church itself based on the sample group of people that you know. The Church is big. It’s really big. There are place in the world where it is coming on like gangbusters, and other places where it is (temporarily), fizzling out. Going back through Church history from the middle East, to Europe, and now world wide there are many rises and falls of orthodox Catholic belief, and Church involvement . In Europe, and the U.S., we’re certainly hitting a low in some areas, yet, for instance, here in Las Vegas, NV, we already hit bottom, and are suddenly on our way up! Catholic believers know that the Church will be here until Jesus Christ returns. It is His. It is saddening sometimes when you look at the empty pews, but if your seeing empty pews, that means you are there looking, right? So, some people are there.

Christ speaks of the way as being narrow. There is not much in scripture that points to all people hearing the masters voice. Eternal life with God is for those who have been called, and have hence oriented their free will to desiring to be in the presence of God for eternity. For remaining in His friendship, and being truly repentant for sin when it occurs in our lives. Those who at least put an effort into doing the will of God while we are alive, and also, according to Christ, we must eat his flesh and drink his blood. We must avail ourselves of Christ in this life, in order to even know we wish to spend eternal life with Him.

I pray for conversion more than probably anything else. I pray for my own continued conversion, and for it to remain always intense. I pray for the conversion of my family, friends, my city, state, country and ultimately our world. I wish all persons to be in Heaven. Prayer, evangelazation, and living out our Christian faith so the world can see the love of Christ on earth are the tools we are given.

But in the end, we do know that the Church will prevail against the very gates of hell. We’ll always be here. Whether we are the largest entity on earth when Jesus comes, or whether it’s a couple hundred lay people and a Priest remains to be seen. I pray that God raises up Saints like he has in the past to re-invigorate, and re-vitalize the Church, as often and as long as necessary, so as many people as want to, can squeeze through that narrow gate.

May God bless,

Steven

 

[Lochias]

Wow St. Donatus. I’m very humbled by your dedication to our faith. I’m always in admiration of someone with such convictions. I once had that and I long for the time when little rocked my belief in the RCC. I’m happy to say that my belief in Jesus is as strong as ever. But I have to admit that my belief in our church is being tested. I continue to teach in our church’s religious ed program, vacation bible school and youth ministry and I feel that I’m an active member in my parish, but even this immersion has left me wanting.

I agree that the teachings of Jesus Christ are important, and what’s more important is our attempt at following his lead. St. Francis of Assisi chided his newly converted friend who went off to pray for several weeks. Assisi went and got him and told him to get off his knees and start working since God’s work is done by human hands. I love that story because it encourages me to get off my couch. It reminds me that the Bible and its predictions and promises will only be made true if we humans make it so. We are God’s hands and God does his work on this planet through us. But we also have free will and we are sinners, prone to taking the wrong path. Any exercise of the Catholic faith by humans will most certainly be fraught with “issues”. And this includes the upper management. I personally feel that the Catholic Church has lost its way. It’s catering to the wealthy in order to make budgets and it’s focusing on certain issues while virtually ignoring others. Pope John Paul came out strongly in support of environmental issues. He even used the scientific terms related to global warming. Can you imagine priests across the nation delivering strong messages on supporting the environment and global warming? Pope John Paul also came out strongly against the war in Iraq. Did we hear priests giving homilies telling parishioners to stand up against the war?

Our current pope is a very quiet pope although he’s managed to ruffle feathers by declaring the ordination of women as one of the gravest crimes against ecclesiastical law, putting it on par with priest pedophiles. We’re also attacking nuns, women on birth control, girl scouts and planned parenthood. Regardless of the Church’s true intent, its way of going about makes it appears that it’s attacking women. In addition, it’s always lobbied Congress but now it’s role as a political mover and shaker is becoming more and more obvious. By making a strong political showing in a time where politics is so divided, the Church is weakening its message. The we vs them mentality will force away many believers who can’t in good faith choose “we” in total. The gray area, the neutral zone, the middle ground is going away and the US Catholic Church has literally told these people to leave.

As far as Mary being hailed in our church as the most revered person after Jesus, you’re right. It gives credence to the fact that women are important to Jesus and like Mary and Mary M., we should be included in his ministry as priests. While the Church has declared all evidence of women priests in Catholic history as heretical, this evidence isn’t lost on many women who see the current all male structure as testosterone/power driven.

Lastly, I stopped going to Church for 6 months after the priest/child sex abuse scandal broke out. The fact that it happened and the fact that it was covered up is a shining example of how we as humans fail to manage God’s Church no matter what God’s message is. Priests are held to a higher standard than other people. Unlike lay people in similar jobs, they are called and touched by God. They should not be touching little kids. We had 5 pedophile priests cycle thru our church alone. But they are humans, just like the popes who have failed in the past and just like the clergy who will fail in the future. I know this. Sometimes our Church is in worse shape than usual. That’s when we need to stop, take a look at our ourselves, our objectives and realign to better accomplish our mission as set out by Christ. I think we need to do this now.

What I do love about the RCC is that it is made up of many voices with varying ideas about their Church. These can be read in articles and books, heard on the radio and TV, and talked about in the pews and over pot-luck dinners. There are many Catholics who feel as I do and this gives me hope. I teach Catholic youth and I hope that the message of Christ will inspire the future generation not to settle for what we have now but to build a church worthy of the Catholic teachings.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I will be praying for you.

 

[anthrogirl]

@ Lochias. My intentions are to continue my examination of scripture, to promote love and peace, to help the sick, lonely and poor, to be a good steward of our planet, to seek social justice and fairness for all, to teach others about Jesus and to honor my God with my thoughts, words and actions. I know that I will fail at these and I will use confession as a way to examine my actions and realign my behaviors to be more in line with the teachings of Christ. I am hopeful that these intentions will not land me in hell. And I am hopeful that my attempt to assist my church in examining its actions and realigning its behaviors, as Catholics should do on a regular basis, is not asking for anything outside the normal tenets of our faith.

One VBS lesson I taught two years ago was about Peter, the Rock and how we are all rocks in God’s church. It’s the strength of our faith in the Lord that makes our Church strong. Strength does not come from blind faith and mindless adherence. That only brings weakness. Strength comes from approaching faith with eyes wide open and through the constant struggle to get it right.

I pray for you too.

 

[Lochias]

@ Lochias. My intentions are to continue my examination of scripture, to promote love and peace, to help the sick, lonely and poor, to be a good steward of our planet, to seek social justice and fairness for all, to teach others about Jesus and to honor my God with my thoughts, words and actions. I know that I will fail at these and I will use confession as a way to examine my actions and realign my behaviors to be more in line with the teachings of Christ. I am hopeful that these intentions will not land me in hell. And I am hopeful that my attempt to assist my church in examining its actions and realigning its behaviors, as Catholics should do on a regular basis, is not asking for anything outside the normal tenets of our faith.

One VBS lesson I taught two years ago was about Peter, the Rock and how we are all rocks in God’s church. It’s the strength of our faith in the Lord that makes our Church strong. Strength does not come from blind faith and mindless adherence. That only brings weakness. Strength comes from approaching faith with eyes wide open and through the constant struggle to get it right.

I pray for you too.

And yet, if you can’t trust the Church you profess to guide you in your faith, as Jesus intended, your faith means very little in practice.

 

[St_Donatus]

@ Lochias. My intentions are to continue my examination of scripture, to promote love and peace, to help the sick, lonely and poor, to be a good steward of our planet, to seek social justice and fairness for all, to teach others about Jesus and to honor my God with my thoughts, words and actions. I know that I will fail at these and I will use confession as a way to examine my actions and realign my behaviors to be more in line with the teachings of Christ. I am hopeful that these intentions will not land me in hell. And I am hopeful that my attempt to assist my church in examining its actions and realigning its behaviors, as Catholics should do on a regular basis, is not asking for anything outside the normal tenets of our faith.

One VBS lesson I taught two years ago was about Peter, the Rock and how we are all rocks in God’s church. It’s the strength of our faith in the Lord that makes our Church strong. Strength does not come from blind faith and mindless adherence. That only brings weakness. Strength comes from approaching faith with eyes wide open and through the constant struggle to get it right.

I pray for you too.

Thank you for the hard work you are doing for the Church.

I have one thing that I think is very important for you to know about my experience. I was brought up Catholic but my parents left my religious training to the church. Most of the teachers in CCD taught me similarly to what you seem to believe and teach it appears. This included priests, nuns, and laity. Sadly, what most of them taught me turned out not to be either Catholic or inspired of God. This reminds me of Mark 13:5 & 6 which says “5 And Jesus began to say to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 6 Many will come in My name, saying, ‘ I am He!’ and will mislead many.”. Without a strong grounding in truth, it didn’t take long for me to become involved with loose women, drugs, liquor, and all the rest. Oddly, it is an old "Baltimore Catechism’ that is teaching me what being truly Catholic is all about. After 10 years of religious instruction in CCD and parochial school, I didn’t even know many of the basic reasons for the teachings of the church. Much of the problem was that I was taught to believe in my own connection with God and the revelation I would get through that. I have found that my own desires and needs effect what I believe God is revealing to me. As Proverbs 3:5 says ‘Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.’ We know that man is sinful and corrupt because of original sin and the wicked tendencies we have inherited. Thus, as you have said, we can’t rely on men. BUT what we can rely on is the Church Jesus set up 2000 years ago. That is why I will listen to the priest, then compare what he teaches with that of the Magisterium of the Church. Somehow, through good Popes and bad, the main teachings of the Church have never been changed to fit our own desires or beliefs. Jesus has protected his Church through 2000 years and just because you rely on your ‘own understanding’ about what the Church should do, she will never change. If she does, Jesus must have rejected her, as he did the nation of Israel two thousand years ago.

I will pray for you and that through Gods grace, you might see that we truly can’t rely on our own understanding.

God Bless

 

[Lochias]

Thank you for the hard work you are doing for the Church.

I have one thing that I think is very important for you to know about my experience. I was brought up Catholic but my parents left my religious training to the church. Most of the teachers in CCD taught me similarly to what you seem to believe and teach it appears. This included priests, nuns, and laity. Sadly, what most of them taught me turned out not to be either Catholic or inspired of God. This reminds me of Mark 13:5 & 6 which says “5 And Jesus began to say to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 6 Many will come in My name, saying, ‘ I am He!’ and will mislead many.”. Without a strong grounding in truth, it didn’t take long for me to become involved with loose women, drugs, liquor, and all the rest. Oddly, it is an old "Baltimore Catechism’ that is teaching me what being truly Catholic is all about. After 10 years of religious instruction in CCD and parochial school, I didn’t even know many of the basic reasons for the teachings of the church. Much of the problem was that I was taught to believe in my own connection with God and the revelation I would get through that. I have found that my own desires and needs effect what I believe God is revealing to me. As Proverbs 3:5 says ‘Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.’ We know that man is sinful and corrupt because of original sin and the wicked tendencies we have inherited. Thus, as you have said, we can’t rely on men. BUT what we can rely on is the Church Jesus set up 2000 years ago. That is why I will listen to the priest, then compare what he teaches with that of the Magisterium of the Church. Somehow, through good Popes and bad, the main teachings of the Church have never been changed to fit our own desires or beliefs. Jesus has protected his Church through 2000 years and just because you rely on your ‘own understanding’ about what the Church should do, she will never change. If she does, Jesus must have rejected her, as he did the nation of Israel two thousand years ago.

I will pray for you and that through Gods grace, you might see that we truly can’t rely on our own understanding.

God Bless

Well said.

 

[anthrogirl]

@St Donatus. Father Greeley once wrote about how some Catholics need the structure of the Church, the rules, the rituals, even the physical aspects of the church, its quietness, the smell of incense, books, statues. It gets them in the mood. They feel holier and more in touch with God when surrounded by these things. And I say, hey, whatever path gets you to God. But I also believe as Christ has taught us that the Catholic “Church” is not the scriptures or the rituals. If everything Christian (churches, rosaries, religious texts, relics, etc.) were all burned to ashes by some evil entity, the Church would continue, because none of these things are the Church. We are the Church, the communion of people charged with a God given mission. During his ministry, Christ didn’t go town to town handing out pamphlets outlining his plan. He prayed, taught and showed us how to be a part of God’s kingdom by example. He was a walking talking guide on how to be catholic. He, along with a bunch of our more fiery saints, has taught us to take ownership and responsibility for our faith and our Church, to be guides and to help bring about his kingdom here on earth.

I’m sure that your CCD and parochial school teachers are just as faithful and devoted Catholics as you and just because it took you longer to find your path, it doesn’t mean the path they modeled was wrong or any less true to the faith. FYI, anything you support with scripture quotes, I can dismiss with scripture quotes. And we should never use it as a weapon to disparage the faith and Christian works of others. Have you ever read a line in the bible and each time you read it, you got something new out of it? Quoting scripture with true command of its meaning is difficult for even the most learned of scholars who understand linguistic, contextual and historical influences. The meaning of scripture is still a hot topic for Catholic theologians.

*Historically, Catholicism solved the problem of change simply by denying it. Understandings of the Trinity, the priesthood, the papacy, the Mass and the sacraments that emerged over a long time were projected back into New Testament texts. Theologians joked that when a pope or other official circuitously introduced a modification of church teaching, he would begin, ‘‘As the church has always taught. . . .’’ * **A quote from Peter Steinfels, co-director of the Fordham University Center on Religion and Culture. Fordham is a Jesuit University in NY. **

If you’re interested in exploring the changes in our Church’s moral doctrines through history, check out The Church that Can and Cannot Change by John Noonan. Noonan was described by EWTN as an “able philosopher, respected jurist, and prominent lay Catholic intellectual.” Noonan dismisses the notion held by some Catholics that the Church merely expands upon doctrine by showing in four case studies how Church doctrine has radically changed through time.

 

[St_Donatus]

@St Donatus. Father Greeley once wrote about how some Catholics need the structure of the Church, the rules, the rituals, even the physical aspects of the church, its quietness, the smell of incense, books, statues. It gets them in the mood. They feel holier and more in touch with God when surrounded by these things. And I say, hey, whatever path gets you to God. But I also believe as Christ has taught us that the Catholic “Church” is not the scriptures or the rituals. If everything Christian (churches, rosaries, religious texts, relics, etc.) were all burned to ashes by some evil entity, the Church would continue, because none of these things are the Church. We are the Church, the communion of people charged with a God given mission. During his ministry, Christ didn’t go town to town handing out pamphlets outlining his plan. He prayed, taught and showed us how to be a part of God’s kingdom by example. He was a walking talking guide on how to be catholic. He, along with a bunch of our more fiery saints, has taught us to take ownership and responsibility for our faith and our Church, to be guides and to help bring about his kingdom here on earth.

I’m sure that your CCD and parochial school teachers are just as faithful and devoted Catholics as you and just because it took you longer to find your path, it doesn’t mean the path they modeled was wrong or any less true to the faith. FYI, anything you support with scripture quotes, I can dismiss with scripture quotes. And we should never use it as a weapon to disparage the faith and Christian works of others. Have you ever read a line in the bible and each time you read it, you got something new out of it? Quoting scripture with true command of its meaning is difficult for even the most learned of scholars who understand linguistic, contextual and historical influences. The meaning of scripture is still a hot topic for Catholic theologians.

*Historically, Catholicism solved the problem of change simply by denying it. Understandings of the Trinity, the priesthood, the papacy, the Mass and the sacraments that emerged over a long time were projected back into New Testament texts. Theologians joked that when a pope or other official circuitously introduced a modification of church teaching, he would begin, ‘‘As the church has always taught. . . .’’ * **A quote from Peter Steinfels, co-director of the Fordham University Center on Religion and Culture. Fordham is a Jesuit University in NY. **

If you’re interested in exploring the changes in our Church’s moral doctrines through history, check out The Church that Can and Cannot Change by John Noonan. Noonan was described by EWTN as an “able philosopher, respected jurist, and prominent lay Catholic intellectual.” Noonan dismisses the notion held by some Catholics that the Church merely expands upon doctrine by showing in four case studies how Church doctrine has radically changed through time.

I was agreeing with you quite well in the first paragraph, but your second paragraph made my point exactly. Yes, you can find a scripture to go against my scripture easily, that is why we must not rely on our own reasoning but on the Church God setup 2000 years ago to teach us the truth of the Bible. At least the understanding of the scriptures I quoted are backed up by the traditions of the Church.

I have no doubt that my CCD teachers who helped lead all my siblings but one, away from the Catholic Church, have a strong faith and believed they are doing the right thing, but as Jesus said, by their fruits you will know them. Many rely on their own interpretation of the Jesus life and the scriptures, but the Bible also says, interpretation belongs to God and the Church has taught us that God works through the Church. If we all followed our own thinking, it would lead to chaos. Jesus had a very definite message and we may want to follow just the parts that make us feel good, but we need to follow all of it. We can see the fruits of the ‘feel good’ church where the average age of religious women is 74 and the seminaries are empty, churches are closing down, only 25% of Catholics go to mass, and more than 90% do not follow its teachings. This is a far cry from 1960 when 85% of Catholic went to mass every week, seminaries and convents were full, and Catholics felt good about their church and faith.

I know what those 75% of Catholics are like. Almost half don’t believe in God in their lives anymore, they don’t trust the church or their priest, they don’t see a need to pray, they want to have fun and be comfortable. That is not the fruitage Jesus was trying to produce. But I recently started attending an orthodox Roman Catholic church that has doubled in parishioners in the last six years. They have two or three young men either in seminary or entering it. While New York city under a ‘modernist Bishop’ had one person in the seminary recently. About half the congregation are young adults that are excited for their faith. On one after noon at lunch, three of the four people I visited with either had recently converted or were in the process of converting to Catholicism (none of them by marriage). This is the kind of fruitage the early church had. Orthodox seminaries and traditional women religious organizations are turning applicants away because they are too full.

But in reality, we independent Americans are like the Jewish leaders in Jesus day. We want to do our own thing, whether God blesses it or not. Jesus warned us that if we make one of these little children stumble, we are subjects for Gehenna. From what Jesus indicated here, good intentions are not enough. I am sure most of the Jewish leaders had good intentions, but they were condemned by Christ. Jesus said that they were leading people to destruction. I feel much safer following the lead and teachings of the church Christ setup than following my own sense of what is right. Sure there are things that don’t make sense to me in the teachings of the Church, but knowing it is Gods organization, I know that it is my thinking that is off and that I need to do more study with an open mind to Gods Holy Spirit.

I guess my main point is, I would be careful in teaching others anything that doesn’t agree with Church teaching. It may be an old lifeboat, but it is the only one available.