Is Catholicism Dying?

[Dorothy]

I was agreeing with you quite well in the first paragraph, but your second paragraph made my point exactly. Yes, you can find a scripture to go against my scripture easily, that is why we must not rely on our own reasoning but on the Church God setup 2000 years ago to teach us the truth of the Bible. At least the understanding of the scriptures I quoted are backed up by the traditions of the Church.

I have no doubt that my CCD teachers who helped lead all my siblings but one, away from the Catholic Church, have a strong faith and believed they are doing the right thing, but as Jesus said, by their fruits you will know them. Many rely on their own interpretation of the Jesus life and the scriptures, but the Bible also says, interpretation belongs to God and the Church has taught us that God works through the Church. If we all followed our own thinking, it would lead to chaos. Jesus had a very definite message and we may want to follow just the parts that make us feel good, but we need to follow all of it. We can see the fruits of the ‘feel good’ church where the average age of religious women is 74 and the seminaries are empty, churches are closing down, only 25% of Catholics go to mass, and more than 90% do not follow its teachings. This is a far cry from 1960 when 85% of Catholic went to mass every week, seminaries and convents were full, and Catholics felt good about their church and faith.

I know what those 75% of Catholics are like. Almost half don’t believe in God in their lives anymore, they don’t trust the church or their priest, they don’t see a need to pray, they want to have fun and be comfortable. That is not the fruitage Jesus was trying to produce. But I recently started attending an orthodox Roman Catholic church that has doubled in parishioners in the last six years. They have two or three young men either in seminary or entering it. While New York city under a ‘modernist Bishop’ had one person in the seminary recently. About half the congregation are young adults that are excited for their faith. On one after noon at lunch, three of the four people I visited with either had recently converted or were in the process of converting to Catholicism (none of them by marriage). This is the kind of fruitage the early church had. Orthodox seminaries and traditional women religious organizations are turning applicants away because they are too full.

But in reality, we independent Americans are like the Jewish leaders in Jesus day. We want to do our own thing, whether God blesses it or not. Jesus warned us that if we make one of these little children stumble, we are subjects for Gehenna. From what Jesus indicated here, good intentions are not enough. I am sure most of the Jewish leaders had good intentions, but they were condemned by Christ. Jesus said that they were leading people to destruction. I feel much safer following the lead and teachings of the church Christ setup than following my own sense of what is right. Sure there are things that don’t make sense to me in the teachings of the Church, but knowing it is Gods organization, I know that it is my thinking that is off and that I need to do more study with an open mind to Gods Holy Spirit.

I guess my main point is, I would be careful in teaching others anything that doesn’t agree with Church teaching. It may be an old lifeboat, but it is the only one available.

Thank you for your post. Unfortunately many do not understand that obedience to the legitimate authority of the church is so important. God sees the bigger picture; man sees what he wants to see and thinks he has the answers.

Lord, be our humility and our trust!

 

[Lochias]

@St Donatus. Father Greeley once wrote about how some Catholics need the structure of the Church, the rules, the rituals, even the physical aspects of the church, its quietness, the smell of incense, books, statues. It gets them in the mood. They feel holier and more in touch with God when surrounded by these things. And I say, hey, whatever path gets you to God. But I also believe as Christ has taught us that the Catholic “Church” is not the scriptures or the rituals. If everything Christian (churches, rosaries, religious texts, relics, etc.) were all burned to ashes by some evil entity, the Church would continue, because none of these things are the Church. We are the Church, the communion of people charged with a God given mission. During his ministry, Christ didn’t go town to town handing out pamphlets outlining his plan. He prayed, taught and showed us how to be a part of God’s kingdom by example. He was a walking talking guide on how to be catholic. He, along with a bunch of our more fiery saints, has taught us to take ownership and responsibility for our faith and our Church, to be guides and to help bring about his kingdom here on earth.

I’m sure that your CCD and parochial school teachers are just as faithful and devoted Catholics as you and just because it took you longer to find your path, it doesn’t mean the path they modeled was wrong or any less true to the faith. FYI, anything you support with scripture quotes, I can dismiss with scripture quotes. And we should never use it as a weapon to disparage the faith and Christian works of others. Have you ever read a line in the bible and each time you read it, you got something new out of it? Quoting scripture with true command of its meaning is difficult for even the most learned of scholars who understand linguistic, contextual and historical influences. The meaning of scripture is still a hot topic for Catholic theologians.

*Historically, Catholicism solved the problem of change simply by denying it. Understandings of the Trinity, the priesthood, the papacy, the Mass and the sacraments that emerged over a long time were projected back into New Testament texts. Theologians joked that when a pope or other official circuitously introduced a modification of church teaching, he would begin, ‘‘As the church has always taught. . . .’’ * **A quote from Peter Steinfels, co-director of the Fordham University Center on Religion and Culture. Fordham is a Jesuit University in NY. **

If you’re interested in exploring the changes in our Church’s moral doctrines through history, check out The Church that Can and Cannot Change by John Noonan. Noonan was described by EWTN as an “able philosopher, respected jurist, and prominent lay Catholic intellectual.” Noonan dismisses the notion held by some Catholics that the Church merely expands upon doctrine by showing in four case studies how Church doctrine has radically changed through time.

Wanting something to be true does not make it so. Truth is objective, as the Church has always taught; Truth MUST be objective, or else there can never actually be any Truth at all.

The Church HAS always taught what it currently teaches; it only further clarifies what it teaches as the need arises.

To not trust the Church is to not trust Jesus. Period.

 

[Dorothy]

Wanting something to be true does not make it so. Truth is objective, as the Church has always taught; Truth MUST be objective, or else there can never actually be any Truth at all.

The Church HAS always taught what it currently teaches; it only further clarifies what it teaches as the need arises.

To not trust the Church is to not trust Jesus. Period.

Amen!

 

[dluna]

Welcome to our group and may God bless your efforts in learning his truths.

I will make a quick stab at answering your Pope question. Basically, Jesus told Peter that he was giving him authority over his Church on earth. He told him that God would bless the decisions he would make by making them binding and that the Devil would never be able to over throw his Church. There are many scriptures that discuss and prove this, but the most complete is at Matthew 18:17-20. When reading the scripture understand that the name ‘Peter’ means rock in the language Jesus used, so the ‘rock’ is ‘Peter’ himself.

Why did God feel it was necessary to make one man head of his Christian people on earth. Well think about it, what organization does well without a single strong leader, whether a good organization or a bad one. The US has one president, Napoleon almost conquered Europe, Hitler almost conquered the world, President Reagan lead the effort to over throw communism, Lenin started communism in Russian which spread throughout Asia, Churchill lead England through its most trying time during World War II, and Jesus Christ started the largest religion in history.

Look at the Methodist or Presbytarian. They do not have a Pope and people are leaving these church in droves. They just started a few hundred years ago and they are already dying. The Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years and is growing quickly, especially in Asia and Africa.

Why has the Catholic Church never changed its core teachings? Because God directs it through Holy Spirit which directs the religious rules made by the Pope.

Why is the Catholic Church many times larger than ALL of the protestant religions put together? Because God directs it through his Holy Spirit.

Last question, why does the Catholic Church have a Pope? Because Jesus commanded it to be that way, because God wants it that way, because God blesses his church because it is that way, and because each one of us is blessed by the decisions that come from God through the Pope, to us.

Remember that it was the Catholic Church that put together the Bible that all Christian religions use. The Pope requested this work himself. In effect, that means that if the Catholic Church didn’t have Popes, we wouldn’t have the Bible either.

Keep up the good work in your RCIA classes.

God Bless your search for Truth and may your look to God’s church for guidance.

Thank you for answering the questions in my head. I have been attending all RCIA classes faithfully (no pun intended, LOL) and while I do feel God in my life the last couple of weeks, I haven’t been praying or talking to him a lot more than I should. I pray to be more faithful and to keep up the relationship with Him. This week I will be going through RoA (Rite of Acceptance)!!!

Not wanting to be off-topic so I’d leave it at this.

 

[St_Donatus]

Thank you for answering the questions in my head. I have been attending all RCIA classes faithfully (no pun intended, LOL) and while I do feel God in my life the last couple of weeks, I haven’t been praying or talking to him a lot more than I should. I pray to be more faithful and to keep up the relationship with Him. This week I will be going through RoA (Rite of Acceptance)!!!

Not wanting to be off-topic so I’d leave it at this.

Congratulations on your upcoming Rite of Acceptance.
I think the most important thing for me was developing a love for God. This love can be developed with prayer. I had to ask God to help me develop a loving and close relationship with him. That may sound glib, you know you always hear that but it is true. I too am in the process of being regularized into the Catholic church. I am a revert. I was poorly Catechized as a child and what I did learn, was not in my heart, just my juvenile head (which didn’t have much room left with all the hormones, rebellion, etc of a 14 year old boy). My parents were not strong on discipline, so I didn’t really learn to work hard on anything, let alone on religion. None the less, the point is, I am developing a love for God and meditating on a book called ‘The Imitation of Christ’ by Thomas Kempis which has been very helpful. It is the second most published book to the Bible. It was written by a Catholic monk. Of course, reading and meditating on the Bible is very important too. There is a Catholic practice called Divine Reading (Lectio Divina) that I would also recommend. It is a practice that helps one read and meditate on the Bible in an systematic way that is very helpful in developing your love for God and spirituality.

Personally, I find getting close to God through prayer is easiest on my knees in a quiet place by myself with no distractions. I also enjoy praying in an old Church with lots of statues of holy men and women. These statues remind me of those saints that are an example to all of us. It also reminds me of the ‘communion of saints’. Otherwise, the holy Catholic around the world, and the holy Catholics in heaven already. The communion of saints surround us and with effort, we can be a part of that.

God Bless and keep up the good work.

 

[lynnvinc]

…I personally feel that the Catholic Church has lost its way. It’s catering to the wealthy in order to make budgets and it’s focusing on certain issues while virtually ignoring others. Pope John Paul came out strongly in support of environmental issues. He even used the scientific terms related to global warming. Can you imagine priests across the nation delivering strong messages on supporting the environment and global warming?..

Hi Anthrogirl, I see you are new to CAF.

I have to ask if you are an anthropologist (I am). I also noticed that you mentioned global warming. Most here at CAF think it is a hoax perpetrated by us evil environmentalists, who are a bunch of neopagan-earth-worshiping-economy-destroying-atheist-communist-totalitarian-world-dominating-baby-killers.

I guess that describes me to a tee . I’m an OCDS (3rd order Teresian Carmelite), and I like to introduce people to “The Little Way of Environmental Healing,” based St. Therese’s Little Way of Spiritual Childhood: do little environmental deeds, like taking reusable shopping bags, turning off lights not in use, and the myriad of other things that don’t require much sacrifice. And offering these up to God for the sake of His kingdom. As Mother Teresa said, “it doesn’t matter how much or how little you do, as long as you do it out of love, for your love makes it infinite.”

I like to relate to people that we have been mitigating global warming (and concomitant environmental & nonenvironmental problems) for over 20 years, one baby step after another, and over the decades have saved many $1000s by these little and some big measures. We’ve saved $2000 alone over 22 years from our $6 low-flow showerhead with off-on soap-up switch, and we can’t feel the difference, but in a bucket/stopwatch test I found it to reduce water consumption by half – water involving energy to pump and heat it.

We’ve done all these things without lowering our living standard, even raising it a bit, and have cut our greenhouse gases (and other concomitant pollution) by some 60% below our 1990 levels. Imagine if people had been doing likewise, instead of speculating in palacial real estate (buying homes) they could not afford bec they saw prices going up and wanted a piece of the profits to be had, the severe recession starting in 2008 would not have been quite so severe (one must also blame the financial institutions, as well – it was an anthropologist working for the Financial Times of London who predicted what would happen, after doing ethnographic fieldwork in the obscure financial world ( vimeo.com/17854712 ).

I have come to believe – whereas before, quite frankly, I doubted – that if ye seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, all things will be added unto you.

The issues re global warming are very grave – it is the mother of all pro-life issues. Top NASA climate scientist, Dr. James Hansen, warned in 2008 that we could push the system into runaway warming as on Venus and end all life on planet earth (see esp p. 24 of columbia.edu/~jeh1/2008/AGUBjerknes_20081217.pdf ). And I had only thought up until then at worst we could only kill off some 90% of life thru climate hysteresis over some 200,000 years, after which life would spring back again, as it did after the end-Permian warming some 251 mill yrs ago.

Is the church dying? I don’t think so, but there seem to be gargoyles standing at its entrance, and neither they go in nor do they let others in. And it does seem to be losing its way, as you say.

 

[St_Donatus]

Hi Anthrogirl, I see you are new to CAF.

I have to ask if you are an anthropologist (I am). I also noticed that you mentioned global warming. Most here at CAF think it is a hoax perpetrated by us evil environmentalists, who are a bunch of neopagan-earth-worshiping-economy-destroying-atheist-communist-totalitarian-world-dominating-baby-killers.

I guess that describes me to a tee . I’m an OCDS (3rd order Teresian Carmelite), and I like to introduce people to “The Little Way of Environmental Healing,” based St. Therese’s Little Way of Spiritual Childhood: do little environmental deeds, like taking reusable shopping bags, turning off lights not in use, and the myriad of other things that don’t require much sacrifice. And offering these up to God for the sake of His kingdom. As Mother Teresa said, “it doesn’t matter how much or how little you do, as long as you do it out of love, for your love makes it infinite.”

I like to relate to people that we have been mitigating global warming (and concomitant environmental & nonenvironmental problems) for over 20 years, one baby step after another, and over the decades have saved many $1000s by these little and some big measures. We’ve saved $2000 alone over 22 years from our $6 low-flow showerhead with off-on soap-up switch, and we can’t feel the difference, but in a bucket/stopwatch test I found it to reduce water consumption by half – water involving energy to pump and heat it.

We’ve done all these things without lowering our living standard, even raising it a bit, and have cut our greenhouse gases (and other concomitant pollution) by some 60% below our 1990 levels. Imagine if people had been doing likewise, instead of speculating in palacial real estate (buying homes) they could not afford bec they saw prices going up and wanted a piece of the profits to be had, the severe recession starting in 2008 would not have been quite so severe (one must also blame the financial institutions, as well – it was an anthropologist working for the Financial Times of London who predicted what would happen, after doing ethnographic fieldwork in the obscure financial world ( vimeo.com/17854712 ).

I have come to believe – whereas before, quite frankly, I doubted – that if ye seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, all things will be added unto you.

The issues re global warming are very grave – it is the mother of all pro-life issues. Top NASA climate scientist, Dr. James Hansen, warned in 2008 that we could push the system into runaway warming as on Venus and end all life on planet earth (see esp p. 24 of columbia.edu/~jeh1/2008/AGUBjerknes_20081217.pdf ). And I had only thought up until then at worst we could only kill off some 90% of life thru climate hysteresis over some 200,000 years, after which life would spring back again, as it did after the end-Permian warming some 251 mill yrs ago.

Is the church dying? I don’t think so, but there seem to be gargoyles standing at its entrance, and neither they go in nor do they let others in. And it does seem to be losing its way, as you say.

Hi,
Actually I am no scientist but I think the evidence is in your favor on global warming. I know many here like to bash the scientists on this but you have to admit, many in the media, university, and intellectual circles have used science as a club to try to wipe out orthodox Christianity, so many have a hard time believing much of what is said by scientists. Sad to say, Satan has been very effective in causing our young people to think of religion as just so much superstitious mumbo jumbo. So many orthodox Christians just are sceptical about any of it.

 

[lynnvinc]

Hi,
Actually I am no scientist but I think the evidence is in your favor on global warming. I know many here like to bash the scientists on this but you have to admit, many in the media, university, and intellectual circles have used science as a club to try to wipe out orthodox Christianity, so many have a hard time believing much of what is said by scientists. Sad to say, Satan has been very effective in causing our young people to think of religion as just so much superstitious mumbo jumbo. So many orthodox Christians just are sceptical about any of it.

I’m thinking there is another issue which has turned many of the younger generation off of religion – and I’ve seen it among the youth (mainly those in their 20s) of several religious traditions (Christian, Hindu, etc). And that is 9/11.

They wrongly think 9/11 shows that religion is the root of all evil. I try to tell them that religion/ideology (cultural dimension of beliefs & values) is not the sole cause of human behavior – that there is the social (incl political, economic, impact of “other people” considerations, etc) and psychological (cognitions, cognitive processes, motivations) dimensions, as well. Religion may have played a role in 9/11, but it was not the sole determinant of 9/11.

It’s really sad that religion has been given such a bad name. For me, it was always a very positive thing. It’s hard for me to comprehend the ways in which post-9/11 youth (in their intellectually formative years when that happened) perceive the world. I suppose many attribute the event simply to “Islam,” but there are also many who think religion itself is bad and evil, and causes people to do really bad & irrational things.

It’s going to take a lot of Mother Teresas to overcome the damage bin Laden did to religion. (In recent decades there has also be a lot of other religous conflict, as well.)

We are all now required to be vertiable saints to try and undo the damage.

I think Europe was already pretty much turned against religion many decades ago after so many centuries of religious conflict.

Yes, the rise of science may have played a role (for those whose religion was more just a matter of superstitious magic), but conflict and horrible attacks susposedly involving some religious sentiments/ideology have also done a tremendous amount of damage. Not to mention hypocrisy (which I think has been pretty much present if not rampant in all faiths ).

 

[jimmy]

What role does the authority of the church play in the decline? If people are leaving I think the church authority needs to take a look at itself to see what contributions it might be making to this loss and take responsibility for what it owns. Leadership is powerful and a team is as good as its leader. Can’t just blame the sheep.

The first post to make any sense. All I see on this thread is people complaining about how mean the media is. “They are meanies.” If the media had nothing to report on, then they would report nothing. But the sad truth is that the Catholic Church has done nothing over the last couple decades to inspire people to join. They have covered up evil, and by the way people respond on this thread it looks like they would like to see it continue to be covered up. The only way things will get better is if the Church accepts responsibility for what it has done and make changes to ensure that it never occurs again. The problem isn’t the ‘evil media’, it is corrupt Catholics. Don’t sit here and moan and complain and blame the rest of the world.

 

[mh2007]

The problem is not the Church. The problem confronting mankind is learning to wait upon God. With our fast-paced, instant gratification, short attention span lifestyles, actually waiting upon God, and making God a priority has almost become lost. God wants to reveal Himself today as much as He did in former times, but only those who make time before God their personal priority will ever really learn to hear God’s voice. The way to seek Him is Prayerfully, Patiently, With a single mind, Expectantly, Longingly, Quietly, & Continually. In this regard, the Church offers a wonderful pathway for anyone to seek God through Jesus. Throughout the modern era, the opportunity seek God has been there.

This Church will never die. It will be more influential and less influential in cycles over time, but it won’t go away.

 

[St_Donatus]

The first post to make any sense. All I see on this thread is people complaining about how mean the media is. “They are meanies.” If the media had nothing to report on, then they would report nothing. But the sad truth is that the Catholic Church has done nothing over the last couple decades to inspire people to join. They have covered up evil, and by the way people respond on this thread it looks like they would like to see it continue to be covered up. The only way things will get better is if the Church accepts responsibility for what it has done and make changes to ensure that it never occurs again. The problem isn’t the ‘evil media’, it is corrupt Catholics. Don’t sit here and moan and complain and blame the rest of the world.

Personally, I think it is many things. We have covered the Church ‘Abuse’ scandal enough on this thread, the point is, the Church has made many mistakes, especially over the last 50 years. It took away many of the visual things that helped people feel close to God and replaced it with poor entertainment and modern abstract art. It took away and changed many of the minor teachings, allowed dissenting priests and nuns to help weaken the faith of millions even further, without giving us good Catechizing to move us forward.

BUT, schools and the media bash religion at every chance they get. Instead of blaming 9/11 on Islamic extremists, it blamed it on ardent religious and showed how it was an example of how strong religion brings about evil. For every positive story about the Catholic Church, I see 10 negative stories. It may not all be the ‘media’ but the media, university system, intellectuals, etc play a large part in harming the image of the Church.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .If you’re interested in exploring the changes in our Church’s moral doctrines through history, check out The Church that Can and Cannot Change by John Noonan. Noonan was described by EWTN as an “able philosopher, respected jurist, and prominent lay Catholic intellectual.” Noonan dismisses the notion held by some Catholics that the Church merely expands upon doctrine by showing in four case studies how Church doctrine has radically changed through time.

The “notion” is Church doctrine. This article addresses Noonan’s errors:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=3907&repos=1&subrepos=0&searchid=899278

 

[anthrogirl]

@FCEGM. Thank you for guiding me to Dr. O’Neil’s article, “ A Response To John T. Noonan, Jr. Concerning The Development Of Catholic Moral Doctrine” written in 1996. While a very interesting read, the article was not a response to the book I cited. It was a response to Noonan’s article “Development in Moral Doctrine” which was published in our Church’s well respected scholarly journal, Theological Studies, 1993.

The book I referred to was The Church that Can and Cannot Change, a far more developed examination of Church doctrine published in 2005 by the University of Notre Dame. As you know, the Catholic Church has a hand in his publications as he is a highly respected expert in ethical and theological studies in and of our church. I’m not saying there aren’t experts who disagree with him. I’m sure there are. The Church has always benefited, since the beginning of our Church, from vigorous debate amongst its followers.

FYI…… I looked for more articles on Noonan by Dr. O’Neil but was unable to locate any. The article you cited stated that O’Neil taught at Broome Community College. I checked Broome’s website and did not see him on the faculty list. He may be teaching somewhere else.

 

[St_Donatus]

Thank you for your post. Unfortunately many do not understand that obedience to the legitimate authority of the church is so important. God sees the bigger picture; man sees what he wants to see and thinks he has the answers.

Lord, be our humility and our trust!

You are so right. Yes, Lord, be our humility and our trust!
Yes, we see what we want to see. That is why I try to trust the Catholic church rather than my own thinking. Let God do with us as he will and let our will be that of God.

 

[FCEGM]

@FCEGM. Thank you for guiding me to Dr. O’Neil’s article, “ A Response To John T. Noonan, Jr. Concerning The Development Of Catholic Moral Doctrine” written in 1996. While a very interesting read, the article was not a response to the book I cited. It was a response to Noonan’s article “Development in Moral Doctrine” which was published in our Church’s well respected scholarly journal, Theological Studies, 1993.

The book I referred to was The Church that Can and Cannot Change, a far more developed examination of Church doctrine published in 2005 by the University of Notre Dame. As you know, the Catholic Church has a hand in his publications as he is a highly respected expert in ethical and theological studies in and of our church. I’m not saying there aren’t experts who disagree with him. I’m sure there are. The Church has always benefited, since the beginning of our Church, from vigorous debate amongst its followers.

FYI…… I looked for more articles on Noonan by Dr. O’Neil but was unable to locate any. The article you cited stated that O’Neil taught at Broome Community College. I checked Broome’s website and did not see him on the faculty list. He may be teaching somewhere else.

Noonan’s arguments may be more fully-fleshed in the book, but they are the same four addressed by O’Neil. One doesn’t, of course, need to teach at Harvard to recognize something that essentially denies the doctrine of the Church - far from the “notion held by some Catholics”, as you called it - regarding the development of the same.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7757

 

[iamcatholic100]

I live in the U.S. It seems like out of all of the people I know, only 20% or so believe in Christ. Out of those 20% only 5% are Roman Catholic. The rest are from other Christian denominations but used to be Roman Catholic a few years ago. The other 80% are atheist.

This is very sad. Also, the media doesn’t help showing all the negative aspects of the Church, such as pedophile priests and more. There was a report last night about a priest stealing valuable things from a store, and caught on surveillance camera.

How do you all feel about this? Is this just in my head, or are we Roman Catholics becoming scarce?

After reading the many posts in this thread, I’d like to give my two cents to the OP. jsaldar, you stated that only 20% of the people you’ve met believe in Jesus while the other 80% don’t. If you’re referring to your college, I feel your pain brother. I attend a secular college as well, and while it has a wonderful catholic campus ministry, the university itself is mostly not friendly to the teachings of Catholicism and Christianity, though my college does have some excellent professors and faculty members. However, if you’re referring America in general, then your statistics are wrong. Here is a religious poll conducted by the Pew Forum not too long ago.

religions.pewforum.org/reports

I also don’t think Catholicism is dying. It might my losing ground in Europe and North America, but as other posts in this thread have mentioned, it is doing well in Africa and Asia. In my opinion, the reason this is so is because the West has a much higher quality of life than many countries in Asia, Latin America and Africa. And, since there isn’t a huge amount of human suffering from diseases and war in industrialized countries and since the West looks like a technological Utopia, westerners feel as though they don’t need God anymore. But in third world countries, it’s the exactly opposite. Additionally, it’s a lie to say that Catholicism is losing the battle. Remember, when Jesus called Peter the Rock and that Jesus will build His church on that Rock, He said that the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against it.

Finally, in regards to the priest getting caught stealing, I find it very maddening and saddening that the priest did such a thing. The news media is simply doing its job, but I do believe there is an agenda behind it to undermine the church. But, just because these priest scandals happened doesn’t mean that people should leave the church or think that religion is now meaningless. If anything, the right thing to do is to accept these realities and pray for reparation, forgiveness, renewal, and for growth in holiness for both the clergy and ourselves.

I think that the only way to revive Catholicism in the West is to follow the teachings of Jesus, the Church, and live out our faith the best we can.

 

[lynnvinc]

After reading the many posts in this thread, I’d like to give my two cents to the OP. jsaldar, you stated that only 20% of the people you’ve met believe in Jesus while the other 80% don’t. If you’re referring to your college, I feel your pain brother. I attend a secular college as well, and while it has a wonderful catholic campus ministry, the university itself is mostly not friendly to the teachings of Catholicism and Christianity, though my college does have some excellent professors and faculty members.

The secular state college I attended as a grad student back in the 70s was so hostile to Christianity – making people shy to say they were Christian (if they were) – that I referred to the few I met and privately confessed to me they were Christian as “closet Christians.”

Seems I got in bec they didn’t know I was a Christian (Catholic), and when it came up a year or so later, my prof was very concerned that my work would be biased or something, that it would impact me in a bad way professionally. Later when I was graduating I happened to get into a personal conversation with the grad secretary, who turned out to be an ex-nun; she related the horrror of how the dept had refused admission to a Protestant missionary who had top academic achievements, solely bec he had been a missionary.

Decades later when I spoke to a person who had attended a Catholic college and expressed how wonderful that must have been (from a religious perspective), she said it was not, that there was also a secular, somewhat anti-religious atmosphere there.

As a prof myself at a state university, I always in some way or other let students know I’m a practicing Catholic and depending on the context, a secular Carmelite. I’m also very engaging and open with the few open atheist student I have, and we have positive discussions about religion and other issues – me explaining from an academic/scholarly perspective (not a religious one) how wrong the new and militant atheists (Dawkins, PZ Myers, etc) are in their ideas. Like even if I were an atheist, I’d be against their ideas, bec they are just wrong.

 

[St_Donatus]

After reading the many posts in this thread, I’d like to give my two cents to the OP. jsaldar, you stated that only 20% of the people you’ve met believe in Jesus while the other 80% don’t. If you’re referring to your college, I feel your pain brother. I attend a secular college as well, and while it has a wonderful catholic campus ministry, the university itself is mostly not friendly to the teachings of Catholicism and Christianity, though my college does have some excellent professors and faculty members. However, if you’re referring America in general, then your statistics are wrong. Here is a religious poll conducted by the Pew Forum not too long ago.

religions.pewforum.org/reports

I also don’t think Catholicism is dying. It might my losing ground in Europe and North America, but as other posts in this thread have mentioned, it is doing well in Africa and Asia. In my opinion, the reason this is so is because the West has a much higher quality of life than many countries in Asia, Latin America and Africa. And, since there isn’t a huge amount of human suffering from diseases and war in industrialized countries and since the West looks like a technological Utopia, westerners feel as though they don’t need God anymore. But in third world countries, it’s the exactly opposite. Additionally, it’s a lie to say that Catholicism is losing the battle. Remember, when Jesus called Peter the Rock and that Jesus will build His church on that Rock, He said that the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against it.

Finally, in regards to the priest getting caught stealing, I find it very maddening and saddening that the priest did such a thing. The news media is simply doing its job, but I do believe there is an agenda behind it to undermine the church. But, just because these priest scandals happened doesn’t mean that people should leave the church or think that religion is now meaningless. If anything, the right thing to do is to accept these realities and pray for reparation, forgiveness, renewal, and for growth in holiness for both the clergy and ourselves.

I think that the only way to revive Catholicism in the West is to follow the teachings of Jesus, the Church, and live out our faith the best we can.

You and lynnvinc have great insights and are examples of what we all need to be doing in our work for God and his Church here on Earth. God Bless you and your faith

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I also don’t think Catholicism is dying. It might my losing ground in Europe and North America, but as other posts in this thread have mentioned, it is doing well in Africa and Asia. In my opinion, the reason this is so is because the West has a much higher quality of life than many countries in Asia, Latin America and Africa. And, since there isn’t a huge amount of human suffering from diseases and war in industrialized countries and since the West looks like a technological Utopia, westerners feel as though they don’t need God anymore. But in third world countries, it’s the exactly opposite.

I seriously think that this is something that we should fix rather than praise. It does not do us any favors to have the most Catholic countries in the world also being the same countries where corruption infects the government, poverty is sky-high, and the standard of living is a sharp contrast to the Church’s image as a charitable institution.

I implied this before on this thread but now, I have to make it clear. What’s the point of Catholic Social Teaching if this is not a goal? Why do I often get this horrible sense that putting national poverty and national religious identity side by side is being seen as a good thing here?

You guys in the West can bemoan the decline of religiosity all you want. I would still gladly switch places with any of you if it means living in a place where I can have a secure job that’s closer to my career goals; doesn’t have my parents struggling to get my siblings through school; and eventually enable me to raise a family of my own. Heck, I’m still wondering if there’s more to the fact that a guy with the same job as me is earning five times as much or that’s just how sad this little Third World picture is.

It’s bad enough to learn that about 70% of average income here goes to just gas.

 

[St_Donatus]

I seriously think that this is something that we should fix rather than praise. It does not do us any favors to have the most Catholic countries in the world also being the same countries where corruption infects the government, poverty is sky-high, and the standard of living is a sharp contrast to the Church’s image as a charitable institution.

I implied this before on this thread but now, I have to make it clear. What’s the point of Catholic Social Teaching if this is not a goal? Why do I often get this horrible sense that putting national poverty and national religious identity side by side is being seen as a good thing here?

You guys in the West can bemoan the decline of religiosity all you want. I would still gladly switch places with any of you if it means living in a place where I can have a secure job that’s closer to my career goals; doesn’t have my parents struggling to get my siblings through school; and eventually enable me to raise a family of my own. Heck, I’m still wondering if there’s more to the fact that a guy with the same job as me is earning five times as much or that’s just how sad this little Third World picture is.

It’s bad enough to learn that about 70% of average income here goes to just gas.

I wouldn’t say anyone on this thread thinks would want to live where there is more struggle, pain and suffering but the facts show what they are saying about Western culture. Personally I think there is much more to it than that. I know that in the 1950s the US was both prosperous and the Catholic Church was flourishing. Personally, I think that contraception plays a large part in the fall of faith in the west as well. It allows people to fulfill some of their most base but strong desires when they want, with whom they want, and without any bad concequences. Yes, family fall apart, peoples feeling are hurt, people kill themselves and others, yet, our government and economy protect the vast majority from the economic results of bad behavior. At least in places like the Phillipines, usually people are suffering, not due to their own bad habits etc as in the US, but because of the evil that exists in the world, like corrupt governments, etc.

I would warn you though, that the lifestyle in the west is like a drug. I have known several people who have come to the US with faithful kind children, only to see those children get sucked into the western culture, into crime, drugs, and sex. They wish they had never come but now that they are addicted, they won’t go home. They children are not hungry, the don’t work long hours just to get by, but they are not happy, both emotionally and spiritually.