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requiemaeturnum
Guest
Not everyone that says “Domine, Domine” will be saved. You cannot belong to Christ if you reject the True religion which He founded (that would be Catholicism in case you didn’t know
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Genesis315
Guest
the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ–a Christian is one who has been Baptized into the Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. A person can cut themselves off from that Body by obstinately rupturing the unity of faith.
You can’t be a Christian if you spurn the Body of Christ. You cannot separate yourself from His flock, which He entrusted to Peter and His successors.
Granted, Baptized individuals born into separated communities should not be charged with the sin of separation and should therefore be called Christians, however they would be united to the Catholic Church, not be completely outside it. You can’t have Christ apart from His Body.
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Italiangirl
Guest
Dear Tracky8,
My prayers are with you as you seek to grow ever closer to Christ. I hope I can help you.
First, I married a Methodist in the Church 20 years ago this month, and our 4 children are all Catholic. While it may be technically correct to say that all other Christian denominations are heresies, it is not fair to paint all Protestants as heretics themselves. The overwhelming majority of these good people have had no exposure to Catholic teachings, much less the opportunity to reject them. I do not believe that God, in His mercy, would allow these people of faith who are sincerely seeking God to be condemned to hell for not being Catholic. If that were so, I could not have married my husband!
If, however, anyone - Catholics included - denies the truth of the Church Christ founded, knowing it is the truth, then that person would be in a state of serious sin. But most Protestants do not fall into this category. Since you have been led by the Holy Spirit to investigate Catholicism, I would not deny that call simply because you fear your family’s reaction. In fact, your family may be moved to follow your lead. One never knows! There are far more people than you realize who have risked everything to become Catholic, and they will be richly rewarded by Our Lord in heaven. Ask the Blessed Mother for faith and strength. She never disappoints.
Second, The Catholic Church is the one true Church because it is the one Christ Himself founded. An analogy was made previously to a stained glass window, with Catholicism as possessing a complete window while other denominations have certain panels missing. That isn’t a bad analogy. Catholicism possesses the fullness of God’s revelation through the person of Jesus Christ; the rest are incomplete, some more so than others. Why would you want to continue feeding on bread and water when you have been invited to partake in the wedding feast that is the Catholic Church?
Third, some have made statements regarding the Eastern Orthodox church that are not correct. One must not confuse the Eastern Orthodox church with the Eastern Catholic church. They are NOT the same. The Eastern Orthodox church is NOT in communion with Rome. They broke away from the Catholic Church in the Great Schism of 1054, and are still not reconciled to Rome. Should a Catholic find himself in an Eastern Orthodox Church while traveling, he would not be able to receive Communion, as we do not recognize the validity of their priesthood. The Eastern Catholic Church, however, IS in in communion with Rome, though they celebrate using the Eastern rite instead of the Latin, or Roman, rite. There are 21 other churches in communion with Rome, including the Coptic, Armenian, Syrian, Greek, and Russian Catholic churches. We should continue to pray for the Church’s efforts to reconcile her fallen children back to herself and back to Christ.
I pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy daily and include those who are seeking to grow closer to Christ. You clearly fit that description. May Our Blessed Mother guide you to her Son through the Church He Himself gave us.
Sincerely,
Italiangirl
My prayers are with you as you seek to grow ever closer to Christ. I hope I can help you.
First, I married a Methodist in the Church 20 years ago this month, and our 4 children are all Catholic. While it may be technically correct to say that all other Christian denominations are heresies, it is not fair to paint all Protestants as heretics themselves. The overwhelming majority of these good people have had no exposure to Catholic teachings, much less the opportunity to reject them. I do not believe that God, in His mercy, would allow these people of faith who are sincerely seeking God to be condemned to hell for not being Catholic. If that were so, I could not have married my husband!
If, however, anyone - Catholics included - denies the truth of the Church Christ founded, knowing it is the truth, then that person would be in a state of serious sin. But most Protestants do not fall into this category. Since you have been led by the Holy Spirit to investigate Catholicism, I would not deny that call simply because you fear your family’s reaction. In fact, your family may be moved to follow your lead. One never knows! There are far more people than you realize who have risked everything to become Catholic, and they will be richly rewarded by Our Lord in heaven. Ask the Blessed Mother for faith and strength. She never disappoints.
Second, The Catholic Church is the one true Church because it is the one Christ Himself founded. An analogy was made previously to a stained glass window, with Catholicism as possessing a complete window while other denominations have certain panels missing. That isn’t a bad analogy. Catholicism possesses the fullness of God’s revelation through the person of Jesus Christ; the rest are incomplete, some more so than others. Why would you want to continue feeding on bread and water when you have been invited to partake in the wedding feast that is the Catholic Church?
Third, some have made statements regarding the Eastern Orthodox church that are not correct. One must not confuse the Eastern Orthodox church with the Eastern Catholic church. They are NOT the same. The Eastern Orthodox church is NOT in communion with Rome. They broke away from the Catholic Church in the Great Schism of 1054, and are still not reconciled to Rome. Should a Catholic find himself in an Eastern Orthodox Church while traveling, he would not be able to receive Communion, as we do not recognize the validity of their priesthood. The Eastern Catholic Church, however, IS in in communion with Rome, though they celebrate using the Eastern rite instead of the Latin, or Roman, rite. There are 21 other churches in communion with Rome, including the Coptic, Armenian, Syrian, Greek, and Russian Catholic churches. We should continue to pray for the Church’s efforts to reconcile her fallen children back to herself and back to Christ.
I pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy daily and include those who are seeking to grow closer to Christ. You clearly fit that description. May Our Blessed Mother guide you to her Son through the Church He Himself gave us.
Sincerely,
Italiangirl
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maurin
Guest
Dear Italiangirl,
a very good post. I did, though, want to concentrate on the following sentence:
I believe that a Catholic would not be able to receive the Eucharist at an Orthodox Church not in communion with Rome because it is against the rules of the Orthodox, not our Pontiff.
I may be wrong, and invite corrections.
a very good post. I did, though, want to concentrate on the following sentence:
I believe that in Summorum Pontificum, when the His Holiness described the Orthodox, he described them as Proper Churches, with a valid Eucharist. This would necessitate a valid Priesthood.
I believe that a Catholic would not be able to receive the Eucharist at an Orthodox Church not in communion with Rome because it is against the rules of the Orthodox, not our Pontiff.
I may be wrong, and invite corrections.
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johnnydigit
Guest
do you want some of Jesus, or all of Jesus?
do you want to wade your feet in a puddle of water by the shore, or dive head first into His deep ocean of mercy?
do you want some of the faith, or the fullness of the faith?
do you want the original?
do you want the complete faith that Jesus gives His brothers and sisters?
do you want to accept all of Jesus’ teachings, or just some of them?
do you want Jesus’ real Church in all its blessings as well as ugliness, or do you want a pretty, non-threatening Church that is a misguided copy?
do you want a complete church, or fragmented church?
do you want the deepest, purest, most helpful Church with tons of tools to help you, or one that leaves people hanging?
i was greedy. i wanted all of Jesus. i wanted Catholicism.
do you want to wade your feet in a puddle of water by the shore, or dive head first into His deep ocean of mercy?
do you want some of the faith, or the fullness of the faith?
do you want the original?
do you want the complete faith that Jesus gives His brothers and sisters?
do you want to accept all of Jesus’ teachings, or just some of them?
do you want Jesus’ real Church in all its blessings as well as ugliness, or do you want a pretty, non-threatening Church that is a misguided copy?
do you want a complete church, or fragmented church?
do you want the deepest, purest, most helpful Church with tons of tools to help you, or one that leaves people hanging?
i was greedy. i wanted all of Jesus. i wanted Catholicism.
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FCEGM
Guest
Moonflower, you may not be aware that such private revelations are not allowed to be presented and/or discussed on CAF.
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Jerry_Monroe
Guest
Hello, Tracky8. God bless you! Yes, you are being called into communion with the one and only church founded by Our Lord, Jesus Christ, the bride who is spotless despite the countless sins of her individual members. However, you are at a delicate stage, like a candle in the wind, and my advice to you is that you avoid the Internet for a while (yes, even good sites like this one) because the Devil sows much confusion out here (“devil” means “to scatter”), and the possibility of losing you to Christ alarms and angers him, and those undergoing conversions are special targets of his. Instead, pick up a copy of “The Imitation of Christ” to tide you over, and pray that God will direct your steps to a good spiritual director to guide you, in person, into full communion with the Church. In that pursuit, keep going to Mass, and give every parish a fair shake, but if you go anywhere for a couple of weeks without hearing about sin, repentance, divine mercy, sacramental confession and the real presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, keep walking. And by all means, if you have cable or satellite television, park your dial on the Eternal Word Television Network (EWTN) and leave it there. God bless you and take care!
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MrS
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Read your Bible and see how many times the word Church is mentioned.
Never in the OT. It is the temple…not a body of believers, but an actual visible entity.
Christ Himself uses the word Church for the first time in Matt 16:18. And He is very clear that it is HE Who will build HIS Church, and it is singular.
It is known that this Church was originally referred to as The Way - see ACTS.
And by 100AD it was referred to as Catholic. The universal aspect of the one Church means all are welcome to join. It by no stretch means that all are welcome to re-define and be selective in what they shoose to beleive.
Belief in Christ includes belief that He did what He did.
Only the Catholic Church has the right/privelege to be a Church.
All others, at best, are simply faith communities which lack the fullness of the Faith .
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tampasteve
Guest
If I may say (not saying it is right or wrong) it is a difference in view points to define what the “Church” is. Most Protestants would say that it means all main stream Christians, Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox. Whereas Catholics hold that it is the Catholic Church. Indeed even most Protestants will say “…and believe in one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church” fully believing that the church is universal and encompasses all denominations, not just the Catholic Church in name…arguing this point will get no where fast as this has been debated for centuries.
Steve
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eelpis
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Many people don’t know that Christ established only one Church, so those who believe in Christ and don’t know about the Church will be saved, only those who truly reject the Church while knowing it was established by Christ as something neecessary will not be saved.
We Catholics need a lot of tact when discussing this with the Protestants because it would be an awful thing to become a stumbling block for the innocents.
We Catholics need a lot of tact when discussing this with the Protestants because it would be an awful thing to become a stumbling block for the innocents.
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oljimmyboy
Guest
As it was explained to me by one of our seminarians, “the road to Heaven is lined with Protestants trying to get in and they have to walk. Catholics take the express train and go to the head of the line.” I am willing to bet my eternal salvation that the Catholic faith has it right and I can prove it through source documents from the early church fathers who talked directly or indirectly to the original 12 apostles who talked directly to Jesus. I have been a Catholic for a little over three years and am in my 50’s. I have had many questions about all “organized” religions and have lived a life at great distance from God because I didn’t trust “organized” religions. During my conversion journey, I found that the Catholic Church is the only “organized” religion and the problem I was having was with “disorganized” religions. Regarding my family; I grew up hating Catholics because my parents “hated” Catholics out of complete ignorance. There are millions of people who hate what they believe to be true about the Catholic faith. Once a person opens their heart to the truth of the Catholic faith, God’s glory will shine upon them and they will be converted. Conversion by the way, is not a choice a person makes but something that occurs over time by the power of the Holy Spirit and the salvation journey is a life-long endevour - but an extremely rewarding one! God alone has the power to choose who he wants with him in his kingdom. We (Catholics) follow the teachings of Jesus Christ that have been passed on through the Church that He Himself established. When you begin to explore the history of His church; the Catholic Church, you will begin to understand. We (Catholics) do not have a corner on the “Heaven” market, but we believe we are following the teachings of Jesus on a much, much more concise schedule of understanding. I recommend and encourage you to attend a Catholic Church’s RCIA classes (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults) to learn more. They usually start in late Summer and last through Spring. Just attending RCIA changed my whole perspective on God, religion, life, myself, my family…everything. There should be no pressure to convert or even stay in the classes because The Church teaches that we all must respect, as God does, that we all have free will. To cohers you into “joining” the Church would be against God’s will and yours. If you are called to conversion, you and God alone will know it. (P.S. Any Catholic will tell you that a Convert makes the best Catholic.)
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wconnella
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SCOT HANN HAS A BOOK TITLE LAMB OF GOD–CAN PURCHASE FROM ETWN–WILL GIVE U MANY ANSWERS–ALSO READ`THE COMMON SENSE SAINT–CHISTRESON’S THEOLOGY WORK. --ETWN —GOOD LUCK ON YOUR JOURNEY—DON’T LET ANYONE DEFINE YOU BUT GOD BY HIS LOVE AND YOURSELF–WHY U HAVE FREEWILL –
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servant_dan
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MrS that is a very nice quote and I think I understand your meaning but, as Paul Harvey might say, you left our the “rest of the story”. Let me be so brash as to supply the ending of what you quoted, verse 25 “In that day, declares the LORD Almighty, “the peg” driven into the firm place will give way; it will be sheared off and will fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut down.” The LORD has spoken Food for thought, Peace, Dan
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Pax_et_Caritas
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I’m sure you did not mean what you just said. I’m sure you meant to say that it is possible for them to be saved, not that they will be saved.
Simply claiming to believe in Christ will not get a person into heaven. They also have to have their sins forgiven and die in the state of grace. Not even all Catholics - who belong to the true Church and have access to the sacraments - will be saved. Much less so for an invincibly ignorant Protestant who has no access to the sacrament of confession.
If it is difficult to live a holy life with the sacraments, how much more so for a Protestant who does not have the sacraments. Invincible ignorance is one thing; living a life in the state of grace is another. There are probably many invincibly ignorant non-Catholics, but how many in the state of grace? I would say there are probably very few over the age of reason, especially with the condition of our society and the amount of temptations we have to face.
For a person to have a mortal sin forgiven without the sacrament of confession is very difficult. It requires a perfect act of contrition, whereas a mere act of attrition suffices with the sacrament. Perfect contrition is very rare and requires a special grace. Therefore, while it is theoretically possible for one who is invincibly ignorant of the Catholic Church to be saved, it is certainly very difficult.
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eelpis
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Salvation is a tricky thing even for a Catholic ; ) I took the other things for granted ie state of grace.
Maybe I should have said that those who believe in Christ but don’t know about the Church can be saved.
God will not give you a theology exam at the judgement he will say: "I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty… "
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Pax_et_Caritas
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We have to be a little careful with this. Correct belief is not an indifferent matter. A persn must have the Catholic faith to be saved. That is die fide from the Council of Trent. Someone who denies an article of divinely revealed truth is devoid of all supernatural faith. It is all or nothing. Either a person believes all the truths God has revealed (all that have been made known to that person), or they reject all faith. Just as one mortal sin removes all supernatural charity (the state of grace), so too just one herersy removes all supernatural faith.
Pope Leo XIII: ** "what the Apostle St. James judges to be the effect of a moral delinquency, the same is to be said of an erroneous opinion in the matter of faith. “Whosoever shall offend in one point, is become guilty of all**” (Ep. James ii., 10). Nay, it applies with greater force to an erroneous opinion. For it can be said with less truth that every law is violated by one who commits a single sin, since it may be that he only virtually despises the majesty of God the Legislator. But he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honour God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith. “In many things they are with me, in a few things not with me; but in those few things in which they are not with me the many things in which they are will not profit them” (S. Augustinus in Psal. liv., n. 19)" (Satis Cognitum)
A person who denies one article of faith can feed all of the hungry people in the world, end abortion, and ransom every slave, yet he will be damned none-the-less. That is how serious heresy is.
What the Church does teach is that it is possible for a person who is outside of the visible boundaries of the Church to have the Catholic faith. As long as they believe explicitly in the Trinity and Incarnation, and do not simultandously deny any other dogmas, such as purgatory, the true Presence, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, or the Immaculate Conception, they do have the faith Not “may” have the faith; they do have the faith. They don’t have to know all the other dogmas, but they cannot deny them. In other words, if they are unaware of them it is OK. They only have to believe explicitly in the Trinity and Incarnation; the other dogmas they only have to believe implicitly - which means they do not explicitly deny them…
So, if a person attends a Protestant Church and believes those two points of doctrine (Trinty and Incarnation), and has never been decieved by his heretical pastor into denying any other dogmas, he would have the faith, and therefore could possibly be saved, as long as he died in the state of grace.
So, while it is true that we will not receive a theology test at the judgment day, it is also true that a person who denies one dogma will be damned.
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eelpis
Guest
Yes that is true, if it’s an explicit denial and all the facts are truly known. However, salvation is not dependant on IQ. Amazing grace is what we need.
Deus caritas est.
I think there are just a few things that need to be known according to St Paul in Hebrews. And later according to theologians, this is what my Baronius missal states: The existence of one God.The Holy Trinity, the redemption of the human race through the incarnation and death of Jesus Christ, and the future state of reward and punishment.
Most Protestants believe these thing and if they deny one or more dogmas of the Catholic faith I think it’s mostly out of ignorance and not out of malice.
Besides it has never been the teaching of the Catholic Church that all or even most Protestants go to hell.
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Pax_et_Caritas
Guest
Yes, that’s right. The council of Florence taught the necesity of explicit belief in the Trinity and Incarnation.Yes that is true, if it’s an explicit denial and all the facts are truly known. However, salvation is not dependant on IQ. Amazing grace is what we need.
Deus caritas est.
I think there are just a few things that need to be known according to St Paul in Hebrews. And later according to theologians, this is what my Baronius missal states: The existence of one God.The Holy Trinity, the redemption of the human race through the incarnation and death of Jesus Christ, and the future state of reward and punishment.
I’d like to see that teaching. My guess is that 99% of Protestants go to hell. If you read the saints, they teach what Jesus did about salvation - that to be saved required walking on the narrow road, and that only few (adults) make it.
I think it is extremely uncharitable to lead a Protestant to believe that they had even a decent chance of being saved. With heretics as teachers and no access to the sacraments, they are in a very dangerous situation.
If you or I loved someone; and if we saw that person about to drive across a broken down bridge that spanned a 2000 ft gulley, would we not warn them to stop and take another path? A Protestant is on a broken down rotten bridge, The “bridge” is so bad that it will take a virtually miracle for them to make it across. Anyone who cares about them would do all they could to get them to drive across the new concrete bridge. Not that we beat them over the head as this will do no good. But implying that they are just fine being members of a heretical sect who are instructed by a heretical Pastor week after week, shows a huge lack of care for their eternal salvation.
Like I said earlier, if it is difficult to live a holy life with the true teachings and sacraments, how much more so without them?
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Pax_et_Caritas
Guest
Here’s a good sermon from a canonized saint on the number of those who are saved. He uses many quotes from the Bible and the Church Fathers.
I don’t think you can read this and presume that many Protestants are saved. Like I said, I don’t think it will be more than 1%, and probably less than that. After reading the attached article, ask yourself what percent you believe this saint would say.
olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml
I don’t think you can read this and presume that many Protestants are saved. Like I said, I don’t think it will be more than 1%, and probably less than that. After reading the attached article, ask yourself what percent you believe this saint would say.
olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml
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MrS
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While that may be a nice article from a saint, and it should carry some weight, it is not a teaching that comes from the Church Magisterium.
We have no idea what percentage of Catholics will rest eternally in Heaven. And quite frankly, there are a lot of protestants whom I think… IMHO only… will find God’s favor.
God’s wrath is giving us what we want… I can’t believe many Christians want hell.
God’s justice is giving us what we deserve… again I can’t believe that most of us, and 99% of protestants, deserve hell. Perhaps a special room in heaven for the stupid and misinformed though
God’s mercy is NOT giving us what we deserve… 'nuff said.
As for me, with regards to faith and grace… let me continue to ask and pray for more and more of both…
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