Is Christ Really Equal To The Father?

[AmbroseSJ]

Thank you, I see now. I don’t really agree with what the link says myself. It has to do with whether the Father is greater than the Son, but the person who answered didn’t really explain why Jesus made that statement. I don’t think the link was irrelevant, but it was certainly inconclusive.

The problem was my confusion of your post with another post, there is nothing wrong with your post. Apologies to you.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I think the scriptures is quite clear on what firstborn means… Unless you want me to give you another verse as more evidence… Okay let’s do that, read Revelation 3:14 which says - “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·cea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."
Again Jesus is said to be the beginning of God’s creation… But I don’t like jumping verses hence I only used colossians 1:15, only reason I used another verse was to show you how consistent the Bible is with this teaching that Jesus was created.

You said you don’t believe angels are sons of God even though God refers to them as sons?
Genesis 6:2 - “the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.”
You still don’t believe? It is written

You might want to talk to the Mormons. They have some different ideas too about what the Scriptures say. I guess St. Peter was right: 2 Peter 3:16

 

[JerryZ]

Okay… I’ll ask you the same question then… It is believed that Jesus and God is one in the sense that they are equal, correct me if I’m wrong… So my question to you to would be that if Jesus was created by God can he be equal to God?

NO, If Jesus was created by God, HE Jesus, would cease to be GOD. You cannot separate this. Creation IS an attribute that separates GOD from the creatures. Angels, humans are all created entities.

But HE, Jesus was NOT created! HE is consubstantial with the Father.

…

 

[808Catholic]

I think the scriptures is quite clear on what firstborn means… Unless you want me to give you another verse as more evidence… Okay let’s do that, read Revelation 3:14 which says - “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·cea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."
Again Jesus is said to be the beginning of God’s creation… But I don’t like jumping verses hence I only used colossians 1:15, only reason I used another verse was to show you how consistent the Bible is with this teaching that Jesus was created.

You said you don’t believe angels are sons of God even though God refers to them as sons?
Genesis 6:2 - “the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.”
You still don’t believe? It is written

Do you believe Gn 6:2 refers to angels? And these angels married human women? Why would angels, spiritual beings without physical bodies, marry human women? Why would God create human men if He also created spiritual beings who would marry and presumably mate with human women?

 

[JerryZ]

Lily read my previous post… Jesus was created, to deny what Colossians 1:15 says means that you ignoring the fact that Jesus was created or ignoring what the Bible says on this matter… In that link under begotten it says about and I quote ‘To call Jesus “the only begotten Son” means that he is fully divine and eternal. He is God the Son. This is why the creed says that Jesus was “begotten, not made.” Why? Because he is of one substance with the Father.’
He says Jesus was not made but would you not say that what is said there contradicts what colossians 1:15 says that “his the firstborn of all creation”? There’s also no where in the Bible where Jesus is refered to as “God the son” but always as the “Son of God”… Again that’s not biblical, but man made ideologies

I believe you are misinterpreting the verse:

Colossians Chapter 1

1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature. 1:16 For in him was created everything in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers. All things were created through him and in him. 1:17 And he is before all, and in him all things continue. 1:18 And he is the head of his body, the Church. He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, so that in all things he may hold primacy. 1:19 For the Father is well-pleased that all fullness reside in him, 1:20 and that, through him, all things be reconciled to himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, for the things that are on earth, as well as the things that are in heaven. 1:21 And you, though you had been, in times past, understood to be foreigners and enemies, with works of evil, 1:22 yet now he has reconciled you, by his body of flesh, through death, so as to offer you, holy and immaculate and blameless, before him.

Nowhere it says that Jesus is the first-born of GOD. As for your assertion that nowhere in the Bible Jesus is referred as GOD you are mistaken, there are plenty of verses that attest to HIM being GOD.

John Chapter 8
8:54 Jesus responded: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me. And you say about him that he is your God. 8:55 And yet you have not known him. But I know him. And if I were to say that I do not know him, then I would be like you, a liar. But I know him, and I keep his word. 8:56 Abraham, your father, rejoiced that he might see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 8:57 And so the Jews said to him, “You have not yet reached fifty years, and you have seen Abraham?” 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.”

John Chapter 20

20:26 And after eight days, again his disciples were within, and Thomas was with them. Jesus arrived, though the doors had been closed, and he stood in their midst and said, “Peace to you.” 20:27 Next, he said to Thomas: “Look at my hands, and place your finger here; and bring your hand close, and place it at my side. And do not choose to be unbelieving, but faithful.” 20:28 Thomas responded and said to him, “My Lord and my God.”

Romans Chapter 7

7:25 The grace of God, by Jesus Christ our Lord! Therefore, I serve the law of God with my own mind; but with the flesh, the law of sin.

Romans Chapter 15

15:30 Therefore, I beg you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Holy Spirit, that you assist me with your prayers to God on my behalf

II Coeinthians Chapter 6

6:16 And what consensus does the temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, just as God says: “I will dwell with them, and I will walk among them. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

There are many more. As you can see Jesus IS GOD as confessed by His Disciples.

…

 

[catholic1seeks]

When prophets of old like Moses and Noah an them believed in God did they ever confess that they didn’t understand him or that understanding him is a mystery? What about the people who believe in God in the NT, do you think that God was a mystery to them? Back then they didn’t even have the Bible yet the could understand God, who he was, what’s his name etc etc… Yet today we are privileged to have the Bible but yet we say God’s a mystery, do you not think God would reveal himself by means of his word the Bible that we can get to know God, who he is, what his name is, how he deals with people, what he dislikes and likes etc etc… Every other faith believes in God and can explain there God except those who believe in the trinity God. I think God has given us enough information in the Bible for us to understand him. But you say explaining or understanding the trinity is a mystery but you can easily say Jesus and God is equal. Answer me one question - if Jesus was created is it possible that he can be equal to God?

Tell me. Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty? That is what Job 11:7 asks. I do not know what JW theology is regarding God, but do you think that Old Testament prophets knew everything there was to know about God? Do you think any human on earth today knows everything about God?

Mere humans cannot fathom God completely. That is why he reveals more than what nature has to say. Paul in Romaans 16 calls Christ’s revelation to be a revelation of mystery:

Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen

Where does the Bible say the Son was created? No where.

The Trinity can be explained. I quoted you something that was a very common explanation of the usual terms in theology. The Trinity is not against reason. There is One Divine Nature. One eternal will and intellect. But three possess it.

 

[Tomdstone]

Tell me. Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?

A Mormon may ask this question, but it does not prove that the golden plates actually existed. A Muslim may ask this question, but it does not prove or show why God may have chosen Mohammed to be his prophet.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Lily read my previous post… Jesus was created, to deny what Colossians 1:15 says means that you ignoring the fact that Jesus was created or ignoring what the Bible says on this matter… In that link under begotten it says about and I quote ‘To call Jesus “the only begotten Son” means that he is fully divine and eternal. He is God the Son. This is why the creed says that Jesus was “begotten, not made.” Why? Because he is of one substance with the Father.’
He says Jesus was not made but would you not say that what is said there contradicts what colossians 1:15 says that “his the firstborn of all creation”? There’s also no where in the Bible where Jesus is refered to as “God the son” but always as the “Son of God”… Again that’s not biblical, but man made ideologies

Do you think your interpretation is more likely to be right on who Christ is, or the Christians who immediately followed the Apostolic era?

Ignatius of Antioch, third in succession to St. Peter and who was a listern of the Apostle John’s preaching, in the early second century:

“Jesus Christ . . . was with the Father*** before the beginning of time***, and in the end was revealed” (*Letter to the Magnesians *6).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid.,18:2).

Justin Martyr about 40-50 years later:

“Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being his Word and first-begotten, and power; and, becoming man according to his will, he taught us these things for the conversion and restoration of the human race” (*First Apology *23).

"God begot before all creatures a beginning, who was a certain rational power from himself and whom the Holy Spirit calls . . . sometimes the Son. . . sometimes Lord and Word. . . . (*Dialogue with Trypho the Jew *61).

Would you call Christ “God,” as does Thomas in the Gospels? Or as Ignatius does?

Would you call Christ the “First and the Last,” a title applied to the God of the Old Testament – but also applied to Christ in Revelation 1:17? (When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: **“Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.)

Would you say that Christ was of the very “form of God” or “nature of God,” as Philippians 2:6 says?

 

[catholic1seeks]

A Mormon may ask this question, but it does not prove that the golden plates actually existed. A Muslim may ask this question, but it does not prove or show why God may have chosen Mohammed to be his prophet.

The individual whom I was replying to was suggesting that there is no mystery about God. He/she seem to suggest that, because of divine revelation, we now know everything about God.

If I were approaching an atheist, or a skeptic, or a Muslim, my approach to showing how Christ is God would be different.

 

[catholic1seeks]

JOHN 1 really solves the question whether Jesus is God or not, and therefore equal to the Father. (This is, of course, assuming that all of the New Testament is inspired, which I believe is a valid assumption in the context of the discussison).

The text says that “the Word was with God and the Word was God.” This plainly says that the Word, the Son, is God.

The burden of proof is on an individual who translates the text as “the word was a god.” The typical Jehovah’s Witness understands this verse to say that the Word was “a god.” However, no other translation supports this. If Christ is “a god,” then is he a false god? There is only one God, according to all Christians – even JWs.

I invite you, ChosenOne, to further explore the Catholic faith. It can be scary to move away from the faith you are accustomed to – to question it and to think that it could be wrong in critical ways. But by exploring the Catholic faith, you will find that it is the apostolic and historic Christian faith. If you look into the faith honestly and with patience, you will find that the church that gave the world the bible is in fact the church that is most consistent in the Scripture’s interpretation.

You will find that the Church is One Big Family and that it has been around since the first century. Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church. Don’t you think that such a grave error as idolatry, of exaulting a mere creature to God’s status, is quite contrary to Christ’s promise? That Christ is God has been the historic belief since the first century. It is the belief shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, and Protestants. It is the majority Christian understanding today.

 

[Tomdstone]

JOHN 1 really solves the question whether Jesus is God or not, and therefore equal to the Father. (This is, of course, assuming that all of the New Testament is inspired, which I believe is a valid assumption in the context of the discussison).

The text says that “the Word was with God and the Word was God.” This plainly says that the Word, the Son, is God.

The burden of proof is on an individual who translates the text as “the word was a god.” The typical Jehovah’s Witness understands this verse to say that the Word was “a god.” However, no other translation supports this. If Christ is “a god,” then is he a false god? There is only one God, according to all Christians – even JWs.

I invite you, ChosenOne, to further explore the Catholic faith. It can be scary to move away from the faith you are accustomed to – to question it and to think that it could be wrong in critical ways. But by exploring the Catholic faith, you will find that it is the apostolic and historic Christian faith. If you look into the faith honestly and with patience, you will find that the church that gave the world the bible is in fact the church that is most consistent in the Scripture’s interpretation.

You will find that the Church is One Big Family and that it has been around since the first century. Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church. Don’t you think that such a grave error as idolatry, of exaulting a mere creature to God’s status, is quite contrary to Christ’s promise? That Christ is God has been the historic belief since the first century. It is the belief shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, and Protestants. It is the majority Christian understanding today.

The Gospel of John differs from the others. The synoptic gospels are descriptive and are written from a third person point of view. The gospel of John is more reflective.

 

[catholic1seeks]

The Gospel of John differs from the others. The synoptic gospels are descriptive and are written from a third person point of view. The gospel of John is more reflective.

Yes and how is this pertinent to my post?

 

[JerryZ]

When prophets of old like Moses and Noah an them believed in God did they ever confess that they didn’t understand him or that understanding him is a mystery? What about the people who believe in God in the NT, do you think that God was a mystery to them? Back then they didn’t even have the Bible yet the could understand God, who he was, what’s his name etc etc… Yet today we are privileged to have the Bible but yet we say God’s a mystery, do you not think God would reveal himself by means of his word the Bible that we can get to know God, who he is, what his name is, how he deals with people, what he dislikes and likes etc etc… Every other faith believes in God and can explain there God except those who believe in the trinity God. I think God has given us enough information in the Bible for us to understand him. But you say explaining or understanding the trinity is a mystery but you can easily say Jesus and God is equal. Answer me one question - if Jesus was created is it possible that he can be equal to God?

I would like to point out to you that you are quite mistaken when you assume that we can know GOD completely. Further I will tell you that we do not know the name of GOD the Father. He calls Himself:
Ehyeh asher ehyeh (Hebrew: אהיה אשר אהיה) is the first of three responses given to Moses when he asks for God’s name (Exodus 3:14). The King James version of the Bible translates the Hebrew as “I Am that I Am” and uses it as a proper name for God.
This is were the name YHVH comes from. Jehovah is a transliteration of that unpronounceable word. No one know how that word really sound like, NO One.

We do however have Jesus name and we are told in the Bible that HE is GOD so for the first time since the Old Testament we can call GOD by a name. In the Old Testament they could not.
Back in Jesus time when they had to refer to GOD the Jews would call HIM “Adonai” literally “Father”.
This is why when Jesus calls Himself “I AM” the Jews want to kill HIM. Because HE calls Himself GOD.

Hope this helps you in your faith quest, may GOD illuminate your path and guide you in the truth.

…

 

[JerryZ]

The Gospel of John differs from the others. The synoptic gospels are descriptive and are written from a third person point of view. The gospel of John is more reflective.

John can speak in the 1st person because he was a witness to the life of Christ, the other 3 gospels were written by students of the Apostles. They necessarily had to be in the 3rd person.

 

[Tomdstone]

Yes and how is this pertinent to my post?

Because some people would prefer to look for evidence from the Synoptic gospels. They might claim that it was rejected as heretical by some groups within the early Christian movement.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Because some people would prefer to look for evidence from the Synoptic gospels. They might claim that it was rejected as heretical by some groups within the early Christian movement.

I understand. But JWs consider it as part of the Bible. I believe ChosenOne is a Jehovah’s Witness.

 

[ChosenOne7]

Jesus is the equal of God the Father:

gotquestions.org/Jesus-first-born.html

The Greek word “firstborn” (PROTOTOKOS) is used 130 times in the Bible. It always indicates a beginning of something that was not in existence before. PROTOTOKOS never becomes “detached” from the primary meaning of a beginning of existence like that link shows that you sent.

Next, grammatically the phrase “firstborn of creation” (PROTOTOKOS PASHS KTISEWS) demands that Jesus be part of creation; a “creature.” This is because this grammatical structure is a “partitive genitive” which means that the firstborn has to be part of the group mentioned. The expression “the firstborn of” occurs over 30 times in the Bible, and in every instance the meaning is the same: the firstborn is part of the group. The “firstborn of the sheep” is a sheep (Gen 4:4), the “first born of the animals” is an animal, (Neh. 10:36) and*“the firstborn of creation” is a creature!
The genitive places the Christ aspart ofthe created order. So the evidence is explicit that Jesus is a created being.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

God will provide all the answers when we face Him. I pray that I’m found worthy enough and will meet you there! God Bless you.

Thank you, and God bless you, too.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

The Greek word “firstborn” (PROTOTOKOS) is used 130 times in the Bible. It always indicates a beginning of something that was not in existence before. PROTOTOKOS never becomes “detached” from the primary meaning of a beginning of existence like that link shows that you sent.

Next, grammatically the phrase “firstborn of creation” (PROTOTOKOS PASHS KTISEWS) demands that Jesus be part of creation; a “creature.” This is because this grammatical structure is a “partitive genitive” which means that the firstborn has to be part of the group mentioned. The expression “the firstborn of” occurs over 30 times in the Bible, and in every instance the meaning is the same: the firstborn is part of the group. The “firstborn of the sheep” is a sheep (Gen 4:4), the “first born of the animals” is an animal, (Neh. 10:36) and*“the firstborn of creation” is a creature!
The genitive places the Christ aspart ofthe created order. So the evidence is explicit that Jesus is a created being.

I respectfully disagree, and will quote the Website: gotquestions.org/Jesus-first-born.html

"The description “first-born of all creation” speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10). God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ (Hebrews 1:2-4).

Note that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word “first-born” (Greek word “prototokos”) signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership.

Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ’s sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.

Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: “I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27).

Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the first-born of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.

Thus, the phrase “first-born of all creation” proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation!"

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I respectfully disagree, and will quote the Website: gotquestions.org/Jesus-first-born.html

"The description “first-born of all creation” speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10). God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ (Hebrews 1:2-4).

Note that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word “first-born” (Greek word “prototokos”) signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership.

Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ’s sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.

Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: “I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27).

Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the first-born of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.

Thus, the phrase “first-born of all creation” proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation!"

Excellent post! I will add this to my arsenal when that door bell rings again!

The truth of that statement might be illustrated in the Bible when Jacob acquires the birthright and the blessing from his father Isaac, despite being younger than Esau. We know that Esau gave up his birth right (being the first-born) voluntarily to Jacob, so it seems to strengthen your explanation that it does not (necessarily) refer to chronological birth, but rather authority and inheritance.