B
- Status
C
ChosenOne7
Guest
I’m sorry but I don’t see how this answers my post… I havnt isolated John 14… I’ve asked you about John 10:30 which is similar to John 17:11 and to John 17:21,22…
I havnt isolated John 14:7-10 or taking it out of context, we not even discussing those verses. Your question to Barryl was how does he understand John 10:30 my question to you is the same how do you understand John 10:30 with those versus I gave you… It’s very important not to take this out of context because this is what supports your beliefs… So my question to you is how do you understand John 10:30? I can pose that same question to Lily
B
BarryI
Guest
Why is everyone spending so much time trying to distinguish between Jesus and God? It is plain to see just as it happened. God sent His "ONLY " begotten son ("Through whom all things were made), into the world as a human. He was “WITH” God from the beginning and therefore shares all of God ’ s thoughts. Though separate, they are one in the same as that whatever God would do, Jesus would do also. Remember this that Jesus himself even shed light on this by saying "the Father is greater than I, so therefore God is the Authority. He also responded : but as for the hour and the day, no one knows but God. Not even the Angels or the son. He also prayed to God. Was he praying to Himself?
C
ChosenOne7
Guest
But in relation to this verse, Im glad that you say we can only understand things in context, if you carefully examine John 14 you will notice from verse 10 already that Jesus explanation shows that this was so because he faithfully represented his Father, spoke the Father’s words, and did the Father’s works. (compare John 12:28 - “Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came out of heaven: “I have glorified it and will glorify it again.” also look at John 12:49,50 - "For I have not spoken of my own initiative, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment means everlasting life. So whatever I speak, I speak just as the Father has told me.”)
Also if you read the whole chapter of verse 14 you will noctice that It was on this same occasion, the night of his death, that Jesus said to these very disciples: “The Father is greater than I am.”—John 14:28.
Is that not the context?
The disciples ‘seeing’ the Father in Jesus can also be understood in the light of other Scriptural examples. Jacob, for instance, said to Esau: “I have seen your face as though seeing God’s face in that you received me with pleasure.” He said this because Esau’s reaction had been in harmony with Jacob’s prayer to God. (Ge 33:9-11; 32:9-12) would you say Jacob literally saw Gods face in Esau’s face?
After God’s interrogation of Job out of a windstorm had clarified that man’s understanding, Job said: “In hearsay I have heard about you, but now my own eye does see you.” (Job 38:1; 42:5; see also Jg 13:21, 22.) Did this mean he literally saw God with his own eyes? rather he meant the ‘eyes of his heart’ had been enlightened. (Compare Eph 1:18.)
That Jesus’ statement about seeing the Father was meant to be understood figuratively and not literally is evident from his own statement at John 6:45 as well as from the fact that John, long after Jesus’ death, wrote: “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”—John 1:18; 1 John 4:12.
S
Sirach2
Guest
ChosenOne,
I see that you are trying to prove, using scripture alone, that Jesus is not God.
Have you considered this verse from John 10:38?
“…though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
Jesus was crucified because they understood, clearly and without doubt, that He claimed to be God, which in their eyes is blasphemy. How is it that they understood His words to be true statements, yet JW’s haven’t grasped them?
I see that you are trying to prove, using scripture alone, that Jesus is not God.
Have you considered this verse from John 10:38?
“…though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
Jesus was crucified because they understood, clearly and without doubt, that He claimed to be God, which in their eyes is blasphemy. How is it that they understood His words to be true statements, yet JW’s haven’t grasped them?
J
JMM1957
Guest
I am coming into this discussion a little late, but I have been down this road before with JW’s. What I have always found to be the case is that JW’s say that in order to worship God accurately, we need to fully understand who God is in the first place. Do you understand everything about His being and how God created the world and brought everything into existence out of nothing? Of course you don’t, and either do I. Does that mean that you can’t offer worship to God that is pleasing to Him? Of course not. God having created us, knows that we have limitations on our understanding of Him. He put within us though, the “desire” to search for Him and understand His ways.
The first chapter of the Gospel of John is the most obvious description of who Jesus is. The preincarnate Jesus existed as the Word of God. John 1:1 says the Word was with God in the beginning, and the Word was God. The Word was not a god, but God. 99.9% of the bibles that have ever existed say “the Word was God.” JW’s claim all bibles except theirs have the translation of the original manuscripts wrong when it comes to John 1:1 If the best biblical scholars and translators can’t get the meaning of this one verse correct, how in the world could they be trusted to get the rest of the Bible translated correctly? Accepting that the “Word was God”, as the Bible says, answers your question about the equality of Jesus to God. You need go no further than that in bringing up all the other scriptural verses you have which you interpret to show Jesus inferiority to God the Father. The Bible does not contradict itself.
J
JMM1957
Guest
Another incorrect translation of the original manuscripts to support your incorrect translation of John 1:1.
J
JMM1957
Guest
Yes, the Jews clearly understood the implications of what Jesus was claiming about Himself. If Jesus was simply claiming He was the Messiah, something the Jews would have been looking for, they would not have reacted the way they did to Him.
J
JMM1957
Guest
ChosenOne7, look at 1 John, 5:20…“And we are in the one who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.”
C
ChosenOne7
Guest
If someone is “in” someone else does this really mean that they ARE that person? If so, then does that mean that those who Jesus were talking to in John 14:20 who were “in” Jesus ARE also Jesus? Or in verse 17, that because the Holy Spirit was “in” them that they ARE the Holy Spirit? Or what about John 17:21 that says - “that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.” just because they were one with Jesus and the father and just because they were in Jesus and the father does not make them equal to them or that they the same person… If you reasoning on John 10:38 is that it shows Jesus is God then why is your reasoning not the same on John 17:21?
There is no real reason to insist that this passage shows Jesus as being equally God with his Father. The probability is that, in harmony with the usage of the time, Jesus was merely saying that what he spoke came from God, and what he did is what God directed.
He says that the Father was IN him, and that he was IN the Father. To understand this one must first identify HOW God the Father was in Christ, and HOW Christ was in the Father.
Siraj you said and I quote “Jesus was crucified because they understood, clearly and without doubt, that He claimed to be God” based on what verse in the Bible do you get this conclusion?
Clearly and without doubt they killed him because he didn’t claim to be GOD but he said his God’s Son…
John 17:6 - "The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”
Matthew 27:40 - and saying: “You who would throw down the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake.
Notice both times they didn’t call him God but son of God an that’s the reason they wanted to kill him… There is no scripture in the Bible that you can use to support yourself by saying Jesus claimed to be GOD… That scripture is alien to the Bible, Jesus not once ever said he is God. Now how come Jw’s can see that but others can’t?
S
Sirach2
Guest
John 10:30-33
30 The Father and I are one.”
31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus replied, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.”
J
JMM1957
Guest
Again, your translation is faulty in regards to John 5:18. It says: "For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but he also called God his own father, making himself equal to God. So you see, the Jews did believe Jesus was equating Himself with God. Not using a translation that conveys an accurate meaning that was intended by the original authors can cause total misunderstanding.
S
Sirach2
Guest
ChosenOne,
I have no ability to prove eternal Truth to you in any way by my words, or those of scripture, since as Jesus remarked in John 8:42, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.”
And …
John 6:55, “This is why I told you that **no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.” **
John 14:6, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
I respect the Will of God, for He knows who are His, and if you are unable to understand these truths and come to Jesus, it is fruitless to debate, unless the Father grants that you may hear the truth and accept it.
John 14:21
“They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.”
As I leave our discussion, ponder well this verse, which is one of my favorites. Those to whom Jesus has revealed Himself, as He promised, will never accept another’s attempts to disprove His Divinity, for it is irrefutable witness and evidence.
We KNOW HIM.
I have no ability to prove eternal Truth to you in any way by my words, or those of scripture, since as Jesus remarked in John 8:42, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.”
And …
John 6:55, “This is why I told you that **no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.” **
John 14:6, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
I respect the Will of God, for He knows who are His, and if you are unable to understand these truths and come to Jesus, it is fruitless to debate, unless the Father grants that you may hear the truth and accept it.
John 14:21
“They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.”
As I leave our discussion, ponder well this verse, which is one of my favorites. Those to whom Jesus has revealed Himself, as He promised, will never accept another’s attempts to disprove His Divinity, for it is irrefutable witness and evidence.
We KNOW HIM.
B
BarryI
Guest
What Jesus means when He said “if you have seen me , then you have seen the father” is quite simple. The way Jesus acted, spoke, thought, and loved is the EXACT same way as His Father( God). Much like a son who is brought up in a house of love or a house of hate. WhaT you see in the son,you pretty much see in the son, as little boys learn what they are taught in a household growing up and what they see. Jesus told this to the Apostles because they kept asking him to show them the Father, and Ge did, He showed them a spitting image of Him. Why is that so hard to understand?
S
Sirach2
Guest
I forgot to address this paragraph of your post.
Acts 9:3. Now as Saul was going along and approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?” 5. He asked, “Who are you, Lord?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.”
There is another sense of oneness, a true oneness in the spirit, not necessarily in the body. It is that sense that Jesus was referring to in Jn. 17:21. Were that not true, how else might one interpret this oneness when Jesus identifies with the very ones Saul was persecuting? It is to misconstrue the truth of Jesus’ Divinity by using Jesus’ identification and oneness with His mystical Body - they have two different meanings.
Acts 9:3. Now as Saul was going along and approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?” 5. He asked, “Who are you, Lord?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.”
C
ChosenOne7
Guest
That’s true… But wouldn’t you say that’s the same oneness spoken about right through the scriptures… Or how do you tell the two apart? Like John 10:38 where Jesus says I and the father are one, in what sense would you say Jesus is speaking about? Considering the context aswel
C
ChosenOne7
Guest
Was that meant for me? I think I did mention that I agree with you, and I understand it the same way you do
S
Sirach2
Guest
In His Divinity, that scripture is true. In His Sacred Humanity, He emptied Himself. Consider Phillipians 2:6-8, “Who, though by nature WAS GOD, He emptied Himself, and appearing in the form of man, he humbled Himself.” It is a difficult concept for some, and the early Church fought against this heresy, where some denied His Divinity as being present in His humanity. Today, we do not have that difficulty.
Concluding, therefore, we read in verse 10, "At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bend, those in heaven, on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
“No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit’” 1 Cor. 12:3
C
ChosenOne7
Guest
Yes that is true… But would you not say that since the Bible is inspired by God that he has given us enough within the scriptures to know about him? He has given us enough to understand how he created things even though we can’t fully understand it all, he has given us his ways, what he dislikes and likes, what he hates and what he loves, we know God cares for us, we know his always there for us… All this we know because it is written down. And yes he even told us what kind of worship he accepts and what he doesn’t accept example idol worship… So I think the Bible does have all the answers
Just out of interest sake The NWT is not the only Bible to render John 1:1c as “a god”. Actually, there are many Bibles that render John 1:1 as “a God” or it’s equivalent and some of them being much older than the NWT here’s a few:
1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.
1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.
1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.
1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.
1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.
1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.
Even Origen, the most knowledgeable of the early Christian Greek-speaking scholars, tells us that John 1:1c actually means “the Word [logos] was a god”. - “Origen’s Commentary on John,” Book I, ch. 42 - Bk II, ch.3.
Origen’s Commentary on John is “the first great work of Christian interpretation.” Origen was certainly the most knowledgeable about NT (koine) Greek of any scholar. He studied it from early childhood and even taught it professionally from his teens onward. And this was during a time when it was a living language and, of course, well understood. - The Ante-Nicene Fathers, pp. 291-294, vol. X, Eerdmans Publ., 1990 printing.
Greek grammar and the context strongly indicate that the New World Translation rendering is correct and that “the Word” should not be identified as the “God”… Please do some research about what Origin said and other greek scholars here’s a link: theology.edu/QHST/Courses/Languages/jw.html
L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
“The Father and I are one.”
They certainly are. They are ONE God, but TWO persons. God is ONE God, but THREE distinct persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each has his own role to play in redemption.
Are your mind and body separate and distinct yet both a part of you? Of course. Can the body do things the mind cannot? Yes. Can the intellect do things the body cannot? Yes. Yet you are only ONE person.
- Status