Is Christ Really Equal To The Father?

[808Catholic]

As a Catholic I’m sure you understand the trinity better than me, i do agree with the explanation Barryl gave… His understanding is consistent with the scriptures. But as firm believers of the trinity how do you understand
John 10:30 which says - “I and the Father are one.”
Compared to the prayer Jesus said to his Father at
John 17:11 - “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.”
Also in John 17:21,22 Jesus prayed regarding his followers: “That they may all be one,” and he added, “that they may be one even as we are one.”

What’s your understanding of all those verses?
If John 10:30 means Jesus and God is equal and the same person, does it mean then that these Christians will also become equally Christ with Jesus, and equally God with the Father and will also be part of the trinity?

The Holy Trinity is three persons in One God. How this is so is a mystery yet a core belief of Christians. Jesus must be God if one is to call oneself a Christian. With this belief, reread the verses you have quoted. Do they make more sense now?

 

[808Catholic]

Why is everyone spending so much time trying to distinguish between Jesus and God? It is plain to see just as it happened. God sent His "ONLY " begotten son ("Through whom all things were made), into the world as a human. He was “WITH” God from the beginning and therefore shares all of God ’ s thoughts. Though separate, they are one in the same as that whatever God would do, Jesus would do also. Remember this that Jesus himself even shed light on this by saying "the Father is greater than I, so therefore God is the Authority. He also responded : but as for the hour and the day, no one knows but God. Not even the Angels or the son. He also prayed to God. Was he praying to Himself?

I don’t think we’re trying to distinguish between Jesus and God because we all accept that Jesus is God. As to your question was Jesus praying to Himself? No, He was praying to God the Father. Three persons (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) in One God.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

ChosenOne,

I have no ability to prove eternal Truth to you in any way by my words, or those of scripture, since as Jesus remarked in John 8:42, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.”

And …

John 6:55, “This is why I told you that **no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.” **
John 14:6, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

I respect the Will of God, for He knows who are His, and if you are unable to understand these truths and come to Jesus, it is fruitless to debate, unless the Father grants that you may hear the truth and accept it.

John 14:21
“They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.”

As I leave our discussion, ponder well this verse, which is one of my favorites. Those to whom Jesus has revealed Himself, as He promised, will never accept another’s attempts to disprove His Divinity, for it is irrefutable witness and evidence.
We KNOW HIM.

Absolutely. We know him. The above is the best post I’ve read on this forum.

Sirach, I wish you could speak to some of my Christology students. Some are only in the class because it is required since the college is Catholic. I suppose you know it is en vogue now for young people to declare Christ a “myth,” even though the NT contains nothing characteristic of myth. With the Internet at their disposal, I expect that to continue, however the Internet also gives believers a chance to refute the mythologizers. I’ve read your posts. No one refutes that better than you.

 

[808Catholic]

Yes that is true… But would you not say that since the Bible is inspired by God that he has given us enough within the scriptures to know about him? He has given us enough to understand how he created things even though we can’t fully understand it all, he has given us his ways, what he dislikes and likes, what he hates and what he loves, we know God cares for us, we know his always there for us… All this we know because it is written down. And yes he even told us what kind of worship he accepts and what he doesn’t accept example idol worship… So I think the Bible does have all the answers

Just out of interest sake The NWT is not the only Bible to render John 1:1c as “a god”. Actually, there are many Bibles that render John 1:1 as “a God” or it’s equivalent and some of them being much older than the NWT here’s a few:

1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.

1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.

1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.

1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.

1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.

1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.

Even Origen, the most knowledgeable of the early Christian Greek-speaking scholars, tells us that John 1:1c actually means “the Word [logos] was a god”. - “Origen’s Commentary on John,” Book I, ch. 42 - Bk II, ch.3.
Origen’s Commentary on John is “the first great work of Christian interpretation.” Origen was certainly the most knowledgeable about NT (koine) Greek of any scholar. He studied it from early childhood and even taught it professionally from his teens onward. And this was during a time when it was a living language and, of course, well understood. - The Ante-Nicene Fathers, pp. 291-294, vol. X, Eerdmans Publ., 1990 printing.

Greek grammar and the context strongly indicate that the New World Translation rendering is correct and that “the Word” should not be identified as the “God”… Please do some research about what Origin said and other greek scholars here’s a link: theology.edu/QHST/Courses/Languages/jw.html

Good research into the various versions of the Bible. The Catholic Church recognizes only a few versions and this may be the source of misunderstanding between Catholics and non-Catholics regarding John 1:1. Unfortunately, the Church as been victim to many mistranslated versions that sprung heretical movements and misled people away from the truth. Just because the resource can be traced back to “old days” does not mean it’s accurate.

 

[JMM1957]

Good research into the various versions of the Bible. The Catholic Church recognizes only a few versions and this may be the source of misunderstanding between Catholics and non-Catholics regarding John 1:1. Unfortunately, the Church as been victim to many mistranslated versions that sprung heretical movements and misled people away from the truth. Just because the resource can be traced back to “old days” does not mean it’s accurate.

If I am correct, this isn’t the ChosenOne7’s research done by himself, this is the standard list of bibles that the JW’s organization has put together for the purpose of backing up their translation of John 1:1. They use this list of obscure bibles to show that the NWT is not the only bible to translate John 1:1 as “a god”. Like I said in my OP, I have been down this road before many times with JW’s and I have heard it all and know all the scriptural verses that they will use to prove their points. As I said, the translation of John 1:1, “the Word was God” is used by 99.9% of the bibles in history. All the translations were done by scholars of different religious affiliations throughout history, they’re not all biased Catholics.

 

[ChosenOne7]

In His Divinity, that scripture is true. In His Sacred Humanity, He emptied Himself.

You not looking at the context of John 10:30 I suggest that you read the chapter please before saying what it means… You simply reading your own ideas of your interpretation into that text, that is called eisegesis

Consider Phillipians 2:6-8, “Who, though by nature WAS GOD, He emptied Himself, and appearing in the form of man, he humbled Himself.” It is a difficult concept for some, and the early Church fought against this heresy, where some denied His Divinity as being present in His humanity. Today, we do not have that difficulty.

Which Bible did you use? Most bibles says in verse 6 “Jesus being in the form of God”… Never saw a Bible say “WAS GOD”… You missing the gist of phillipians 2, the context of phillipians 2 is about humility, about looking out for others interests not yourself only, considering others superior, then Paul uses Jesus to make the perfect example of humility when he says in verse 5 we must have the same attitude as Jesus, being in heaven in the form of God (spirit) and humbling himself coming down to earth as a man (human) … That’s the ultimate example of humility… That’s the context it has nothing to do with Jesus being God… Please again read the whole chapter.

Concluding, therefore, we read in verse 10, "At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bend, those in heaven, on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

It’s interesting that you mention this verse, have you read and considered the verse just before that, verse 9?
It’s says - “For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name”
What does the word exalt mean? Here’s what the dictionary says
: to raise in rank, power, or character
: to praise (someone or something) highly
: to present (something) in a way that is very favorable or too favorable
Who raised Jesus in rank, God… If Jesus is God why did he need to be raised in rank or even exalted?
Where did he get exalted? To a superior position,right… If Jesus is God shouldn’t he already be in a superior position?
So according to this verse who is the more superior one is it God the Father or Jesus the son?

“No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit’” 1 Cor. 12:3

As JW we do accept Jesus as Lord and King.
While on earth,JesusChrist referred to himself as “Lord*of the sabbath.” (Mt 12:8)
And persons besides his disciples called him “Lord,” or “Sir.” (Mt 8:2;Joh 4:11) In these cases the designation was primarily a title of respect or courtesy. However, to his apostles Jesus showed that calling him “Lord” involved more than this. Said he: “You address me, ‘Teacher,’ and, ‘Lord,’ and you speak rightly, for I am such.” (Joh 13:13) As his disciples, these apostles were his learners, or pupils. Thus he was their Lord, or Master.
On the other hand look how Jesus addressed God at Matthew 11:25 - “At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children.” Note that Jehovah God is the “Lord of heaven and earth,” being the Universal Sovereign by reason of his Creatorship. Faithful servants of God on earth addressed him as “Sovereign Lord,” and this title appears over 300 times in the inspired Scriptures. (Ge 15:2;*Re 6:10) He is also appropriately described as “the true Lord.”(Isa 1:24)

 

[ChosenOne7]

If I am correct, this isn’t the ChosenOne7’s research done by himself, this is the standard list of bibles that the JW’s organization has put together for the purpose of backing up their translation of John 1:1

Lol really? I’d like you to show me where in my organization or literature did you see that information since you know it all and have been down this road before that would make it easier for you. The fact remains that our Bible isn’t the only one that is translated like that don’t ignore that fact even before our Bible was translated did those bibles exist… Did you even read up on that link I gave you? Did you see what the Greek scholars themselves has said? Greek scholars who themselves believe in the trinity?

Just like you I have been down this road too… Remember we are known for our preaching, talking to people of different religions everyday… These scriptures you use is no different to the scriptures Protestants use to explain the trinity… It’s all the same

 

[Sirach2]

Which Bible did you use?

NIV, common to most denominations; also worded exactly the same in my bible, St. Joseph New Catholic Edition.

My friend, your continual exegesis will not prove your point, no matter how much you claim to have studied the JW scriptures. They are misstated to make them agree with your founder’s teachings. As I tried to point out, We KNOW Jesus, and it will be impossible for anyone else to know Him unless God the Father enables the person to come to Jesus. So if you do not know him, I echo the scripture that says, “But every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus, is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.” 1 John 4:3.

Do come back when you have an open mind and heart and we would be glad to help you. Catholics have no need to defend our beliefs against JW sophistry, for they are 2000+ years old.

 

[Sirach2]

Lily, you are very kind, and I can only acknowledge that the Holy Spirit guided me. My thoughts were unusually clear and flowed with His anointing, I believe. Thanks again!

 

[JMM1957]

Lol really? I’d like you to show me where in my organization or literature did you see that information since you know it all and have been down this road before that would make it easier for you. The fact remains that our Bible isn’t the only one that is translated like that don’t ignore that fact even before our Bible was translated did those bibles exist… Did you even read up on that link I gave you? Did you see what the Greek scholars themselves has said? Greek scholars who themselves believe in the trinity?

Just like you I have been down this road too… Remember we are known for our preaching, talking to people of different religions everyday… These scriptures you use is no different to the scriptures Protestants use to explain the trinity… It’s all the same

The group of bible translations that you quoted to support your interpretation of John 1:1 is common knowledge throughout the JW organization. I worked with a few JW’s for a period of about 15 years and this is the same list that they would bring to me also. The list doesn’t change over time.

Anyone can find a Greek scholar who will back up their position, not all Greek scholars see things the same, there are disagreements over how to translate ancient languages. The fact is, by far most Greek scholars translate John 1:1 as “the Word was God”. If it was that hard to get one simple “four word” verse correct, then the whole Bible would be suspect. You do understand that John 1:1 is a huge deal to get right, don’t you? Either Jesus is the Eternal God, or He isn’t. We both agree that there is enough information in the Holy Scriptures to learn about God and who Jesus is, and when John wrote his gospel I am absolutely sure that he wanted to remove any doubt about who Jesus was. Would he write something that his audience wouldn’t understand?

 

[ChosenOne7]

NIV, common to most denominations; also worded exactly the same in my bible, St. Joseph New Catholic Edition.

My friend, your continual exegesis will not prove your point, no matter how much you claim to have studied the JW scriptures. They are misstated to make them agree with your founder’s teachings. As I tried to point out, We KNOW Jesus, and it will be impossible for anyone else to know Him unless God the Father enables the person to come to Jesus. So if you do not know him, I echo the scripture that says, “But every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus, is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.” 1 John 4:3.

Do come back when you have an open mind and heart and we would be glad to help you. Catholics have no need to defend our beliefs against JW sophistry, for they are 2000+ years old.

NIV also says in verse 6 “Who being in the form of God,”
You didn’t say that, you said “WAS GOD” unless there’s another NIV I’m not aware of, an I’m fully aware what most bibles says hence I could tell you that’s not what other bibles say… Lol but the thing about this is that I’m answering your questions basically using your very own Bible, but I guess you didn’t look up any of the scriptures I gave you hey? That’s typical of most people. Everything you gave me to read I did whether it be links or scripture.
Any Christian will claim to know Jesus not just Catholics…
If u understand Phil. 2:9 says God exalted Jesus then that proves too he isn’t God…

Like I said at the very outset of my comments that most ppl will believe but can’t explain, you havnt proven to be any better than other Protestants out there. Scriptures shouldn’t be taken out if context. They take one verse and then say there that shows Jesus is God but ask them what is the context they don’t know. They give up explaining maybe because they can’t. I don’t know…

Oh I do have an open mind… I was not always a JW, I was not always religious, I basically studied every religion. Islam, an a few Christian religions. My family is made up of different denominations so I guess I had a choice. The reason I chose jw because if one is humble enough an has a open mind you will realise everything is based on scripture, not often they read things out of context. The fact that I’m here is because I’m curious an open minded, but I don’t get that from others. I’ve done my deep research into this religion it’s then when u realise how misleading ppl can really be saying things they don’t know. It’s tough, I chose the religion probably most criticized. Ppl hear I’m a jw it’s like I’ve said something bad. No idea bro the struggle is real

 

[JMM1957]

ChosenOne7, if you could please give me your understanding of what 1 John 5:20 says? I mentioned it earlier, but maybe you overlooked it.

 

[JMM1957]

NIV, common to most denominations; also worded exactly the same in my bible, St. Joseph New Catholic Edition.

My friend, your continual exegesis will not prove your point, no matter how much you claim to have studied the JW scriptures. They are misstated to make them agree with your founder’s teachings. As I tried to point out, We KNOW Jesus, and it will be impossible for anyone else to know Him unless God the Father enables the person to come to Jesus. So if you do not know him, I echo the scripture that says, “But every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus, is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.” 1 John 4:3.

Do come back when you have an open mind and heart and we would be glad to help you. Catholics have no need to defend our beliefs against JW sophistry, for they are 2000+ years old.

I would add that I think we should be willing to defend our beliefs to anyone who questions them with a sincere heart and open mind. I don’t believe we are expected to debate endlessly though with a person. There always comes a point where both parties exhaust all their resources in trying to make a point, at that time its time to walk away and agree to disagree.

 

[Sirach2]

I would add that I think we should be willing to defend our beliefs to anyone who questions them with a sincere heart and open mind. I don’t believe we are expected to debate endlessly though with a person. There always comes a point where both parties exhaust all their resources in trying to make a point, at that time its time to walk away and agree to disagree.

I walked.

 

[808Catholic]

I walked.

I’m getting pretty good at praying for those I have a disagreement with and walking at the same time.

 

[ChosenOne7]

ChosenOne7, if you could please give me your understanding of what 1 John 5:20 says? I mentioned it earlier, but maybe you overlooked it.

Sorry I forgot about this one got so caught up in the other verses… That verse reads using the NIV Bible in verse 20 “We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.”

If you read the verses before this it’s clear that God and Jesus is spoken about as separate individuals, verse 19 says we know we originate with God, and then verse 20 says Jesus gave us understanding of God, so that we may know him (God) who is true. And we are in him (God) who is true by being in his son Jesus Christ. He (God) is the true God and eternal life.
How do you understand it?

 

[JMM1957]

Even Origen, the most knowledgeable of the early Christian Greek-speaking scholars, tells us that John 1:1c actually means “the Word [logos] was a god”. - “Origen’s Commentary on John,” Book I, ch. 42 - Bk II, ch.3.
Origen’s Commentary on John is “the first great work of Christian interpretation.” Origen was certainly the most knowledgeable about NT (koine) Greek of any scholar. He studied it from early childhood and even taught it professionally from his teens onward. And this was during a time when it was a living language and, of course, well understood. - The Ante-Nicene Fathers, pp. 291-294, vol. X, Eerdmans Publ., 1990 printing.

Of course you probably know that Origen was pronounced a heretic by the early Church. No doubt he was very influential on Trinitarian thought as he was nearly the first early theologian to try to explain it. His view on Trinitarian theology was very close to what we believe today, but the Council of Nicea disagreed on some elements of Origen’s thought process. The bottom line is that Origen did believe in the Trinity, he did not believe the Son (the Word, Wisdom) had an actual beginning in time, that the Son was divine, and was equal to God the Father. The problem occured with the wording that Origen used to describe the relationship between the Persons of the Trinity, some of his wording was contradictory as it suggested that in some respects, the Son and Holy Spirit were not exactly like the Father. What Origen was experiencing was trying to put into words one of the many mysteries of God, something that has plagued theologians from the first century onward. This is why we believe that there has to be a true church, one that has authority and guided by the Holy Spirit to put into proper words what we, the faithful, should believe with certainty.

 

[JMM1957]

Sorry I forgot about this one got so caught up in the other verses… That verse reads using the NIV Bible in verse 20 “We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.”

If you read the verses before this it’s clear that God and Jesus is spoken about as separate individuals, verse 19 says we know we originate with God, and then verse 20 says Jesus gave us understanding of God, so that we may know him (God) who is true. And we are in him (God) who is true by being in his son Jesus Christ. He (God) is the true God and eternal life.
How do you understand it?

It says: “And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life”.

I see the “He” as referring to the preceding noun (Jesus Christ) in the previous sentence. That would be proper grammer usage.

Also, in Scripture, Jesus is referred to as the “eternal life”.

 

[808Catholic]

If I am correct, this isn’t the ChosenOne7’s research done by himself, this is the standard list of bibles that the JW’s organization has put together for the purpose of backing up their translation of John 1:1. They use this list of obscure bibles to show that the NWT is not the only bible to translate John 1:1 as “a god”. Like I said in my OP, I have been down this road before many times with JW’s and I have heard it all and know all the scriptural verses that they will use to prove their points. As I said, the translation of John 1:1, “the Word was God” is used by 99.9% of the bibles in history. All the translations were done by scholars of different religious affiliations throughout history, they’re not all biased Catholics.

Understood @JMM1957. I was taught a compliment is never rejected and doesn’t cost me anything to offer.

Years ago, I’ve had the good fortune of meeting a JW missionary and we continued our discussion over a period of several months. She was very interested in how Catholics viewed and worshipped God and I was curious about the same for her religion. It was illuminating for us both though I was poorly catechized at the time. I pray she learned from me that not all Catholics are idolators and Biblically illiterate.

God Bless you.

 

[JMM1957]

ChosenOne7,

A couple more when you get the time to comment: Col. 1:19 and Col. 2:9