Is Christian faith necessary for Selfless Love?

[ThinkingSapien]

Do we have any of his writings that profess his atheism?

I’m not trying to present him as an atheist. I am sharing a recollection of some one whose memory was invoked by the previously shared description. Nothing more. I don’t know what his religious classification is. Can’t say that it is important to me. If he were atheist, christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, or panentheistic, or deistic would that make a difference on how his story is interpreted?

Side note, now that I think about it, there are no writings associated with my (real) identity to profess my thoughts on religion. I wonder if I should make one.

 

[Sair]

I think you missed the point. God says Kolbe’s wasn’t the great love, as Kolbe died for a stranger, while God himself says: Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

So according to God, the unsung soldier who lays down his life for his buddies has the greatest love. Presumably because he loves his friends for who they are, whereas strangers can only be loved in abstraction. Whatever, God couldn’t be any clearer.

Just as in the parable of the Good Samaritan, He deliberately chose a non-Christian, non-Jew as the one who shows love, to teach that Christians are not top of the pile, we are all equal. Repent PR, for the end is neigh.

That’s actually a really interesting take on the idea of what it means to love another. Presumably anyone you love (and who loves you as well, I would add, since whatever else friendship may be, it is not a one-way street) is to be considered a friend. My understanding of love is that it involves, among other things, the desire for the well-being of the one who is loved, and a willingness to act in such a way as to promote that well-being.

Now, it’s quite possible that Kolbe had developed friendships with those who shared his cell in Auschwitz, so the man for whom he gave up his life might well have been a friend, not a total stranger. I don’t think that this possibility in any way diminishes the heroism of Kolbe’s sacrifice, since our instinct for self-preservation is still prohibitively strong, regardless of the motivation to quash it, and regardless of how far it may have been brutalised by experience.

Having said that, I find the idea of impersonal love to be rather sterile, and somewhat contradictory. As I intimated in a previous post, it might well be possible that a person without familial attachments could be motivated by purely rational considerations to sacrifice him/herself for another person, if that person has greater responsibilities, such as young children to care for; but is this love? And if it is, is it more noble or more worthy of respect than love for friends or family? Perhaps an expansion into considering the very definition and nature of love is a good direction for this thread to take!

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Everyone is equal but Catholics are more equal than others.

A modified quote from Animal Farm! That was an enjoyable book!

 

[Sair]

Why? A first-trimester foetus has not the wherewithal to experience anything, let alone pain. Certainly not pain comparable to that endured by a nine-year-old girl carrying a rapist’s child. For that matter, a first-trimester foetus (and the first trimester is, in point of fact, the period during which the vast majority of abortions are performed, contrary to the alarmists’ cries of a “holocaust” against unborn children) is far, far less sentient than every other animal that we humans routinely slaughter for our own consumption. It is only the reprehensible doctrine of speciesism - the idea that humans are somehow more worthy of life, under any conditions, than nonhuman animals - that makes abortion such a fraught issue.

By the way - and bearing in mind the underlying theme of this thread, which is the connection between beliefs and actions - this seems like an appropriate time to point out that acceptance of abortion is not, in fact, motivated purely and simply by a lack of theistic belief; Christopher Hitchens, the most vocal and adamant of anti-theists, was nonetheless anti-abortion, and there are avowed Christians who accept abortion under certain circumstances, such as those endured by the nine-year-old girl in the article I linked.

By the way there are non-Catholic saints who like Kolbe gave up their lifes that others might live, This woman is not so well known in the west but in Eastern Europe and Russia is a well known figure, interestingly enough she spent quite a lot of her youth as an atheist:-

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Skobtsova

I would rest my case here, as to the relative publicity of Catholic saints and ordinary people who do extraordinary things, not necessarily motivated by Christian belief; but it seems certain that this example will be appropriated by those who claim that their god is acting under the radar, so to speak, to inject his ‘grace’ into anyone who performs acts of selfless love or sacrifice, especially since the woman in question held to Christian beliefs for a significant part of her life.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Indeed. I don’t support the idea that people should receive preferred or ill treatment based on their religious classification (whether religious or non-religious). Not that my experiences were anything like the USSR conditions but I’ve seen some pretty ugly behaviour from attempts of one group to suppress another.

 

[tonyrey]

[No message]

 

[atheistgirl]

A Godless society is capable of any atrocity under the cloak of scientific “progress”…

So, in a nutshell, and in response to a few posts above also, when an atheist does something bad, well heck, they’re just Godless naked apes, of course they would.

When an atheist does something good, it’s because of the grace of the Christian God.



There are so many problems with that, on so many levels, I can only laugh, get my warm milk, and head to bed

Good night

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

Oh, we’ve come a long way from burning witches, invading countries and stealing their land, debating whether certain ‘‘people’’ had a soul or not, and thus if they were really human, and enslaving whole nations, in the name of God.

Indeed! We have reached the stage where one third of the world’s population is living in poverty and misery as mainly a result of greed and selfishness on the part of developed nations whose values are being undermined by materialists’ propaganda that we are merely naked apes **without a soul **and enslaved by our physical desires and instincts fast returning to the law of the jungle.

Personally, I much prefer this purposeless universe, to anything any Deity would be involved with and the attendant consequences to us from those who think they know what this Deity wants.

In that case you are flatly rejecting the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity based on the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father rather than strange freaks of nature related solely by an accident of birth with no prospect except total extinction after a few years on this insignificant speck of matter called a planet.

 

[Sair]

The premeditated murder of millions of children - many of them solely on the ground of convenience - is glibly justified on the false pretext that it is painless even though the unborn babies writhe in agony when the surgical scissors cut into their bodies. That strikes me as hideously unbalanced in a post which purports to support selfless love…

Because, of course, the procuring of an abortion on behalf of a nine-year-old girl who had been raped was purely for the sake of convenience.

And…the “writhing in agony” of a first-trimester foetus is comparable to the agonised writhing of bacterial cells confronted with antibiotic drugs. Please explain how an organism without a functional nervous system can feel pain.

 

[tonyrey]

So, in a nutshell, and in response to a few posts above also, when an atheist does something bad, well heck, they’re just Godless naked apes, of course they would.

When an atheist does something good, it’s because of the grace of the Christian God.



There are so many problems with that, on so many levels, I can only laugh, get my warm milk, and head to bed

Good night

Unlike millions of human beings who can only weep, have no bed and insufficient food thanks to the greed and selfishness of those who live for themselves and **ignore the Christian principle of fraternity **whether or not they claim to believe in God…

 

[ThinkingSapien]

So, in a nutshell, and in response to a few posts above also, when an atheist does something bad, well heck, they’re just Godless naked apes, of course they would.

When an atheist does something good, it’s because of the grace of the Christian God.



There are so many problems with that, on so many levels, I can only laugh, get my warm milk, and head to bed

Good night

Sarah x

DarkMatter2525 did a nice video summarizing this observation called “Double Standard.” I would post a link, but don’t want the reverse link pointing back to this forum.

 

[atheistgirl]

Indeed! We have reached the stage where one third of the world’s population is living in poverty and misery as mainly a result of greed and selfishness on the part of developed nations whose values are being undermined by materialists’ propaganda that we are merely naked apes **without a soul **and enslaved by our physical desires and instincts fast returning to the law of the jungle.

The facts don’t back your assertions.

While there is some dispute over under or over estimations, there is general agreement that the figures for reduction in global poverty set for 2015 have already been reached, and numbers of those on the classic $ a day has been halved.

Despite the decline in global economics, we continue to head in the right direction.

In that case you are flatly rejecting the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity based on the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father

That would be a reasonably fair summation of my position.

Nothing I believe or hold dear including liberty equality and fraternity is based on any teachings of any Deity.

After all, depending on which Deity you chose, you’d have to accept the subjugation of women, a ruling priestly class, the death penalty for apostacy, to name but a few as the epitomy of these qualities of life.

No thanks.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

The premeditated murder of millions of children - many of them solely on the ground of convenience - is glibly justified on the false pretext that it is painless

To cite an exceptional case out of millions of abortions performed on the ground of convenience is a desperate manoeuvre.

And…the “writhing in agony” of a first-trimester foetus is comparable to the agonised writhing of bacterial cells confronted with antibiotic drugs. Please explain how an organism without a functional nervous system can feel pain.

The identification of an unborn **child with bacterial cells **gives everyone superb insight into the mentality of those who justify atrocities on the ground of expedience (understandably in view of the “liberating” doctrine that persons are merely naked apes). When man (or woman) is the measure of all things the sky’s the limit - even though - unfortunately - it is deemed to be as empty of value, purpose and meaning as everything else!

 

[atheistgirl]

Probably.

I’ve been asked many times what the climate is like on Planet Sarah

Sarah x

 

[levinas12]

I find the idea of impersonal love to be rather sterile, and somewhat contradictory.

Yes, a wonderful insight.

How odd it would be for someone to say, I love you but I don’t like you.

Agape seems to require eros.*

Eros in this context does not imply a lack but springs from an overflowing generosity.

Pope Benedict XVI elaborates on this in his encyclical, God is Love.

*contrary to Kant and Anders Nygren

 

[atheistgirl]

Unlike millions of human beings who can only weep, have no bed and insufficient food thanks to the greed and selfishness of those who live for themselves and **ignore the Christian principle of fraternity **whether or not they claim to believe in God…

Good point.

Most of the UK has a faith of some kind, and I think the majority figures are for Christian based religions, something like 75%.

Yet food banks saw a 100% increase in their need in the last year.

The Trussel Trust has over 200 foodbanks and food banks fed almost 130,000 in the UK last year.

trusselltrust.org/foodbank-projects

If I was a UK Christian, I’d be concentrating on why that’s the case in a tiny group of countries imbued with the Christian values of Equality, Liberty and Fraternity, rather than worrying about a few atheists.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

Indeed! We have reached the stage where one third of the world’s population is living in poverty and misery as mainly a result of greed and selfishness on the part of developed nations whose values are being undermined by materialists’ propaganda that we are merely naked apes without a soul and enslaved by our physical desires and instincts fast returning to the law of the jungle.

Tell that to all the parents of children who are dying of disease and malnutritition.

Despite the decline in global economics, we continue to head in the right direction.

Any progress that is being made is due to the belated recognition of human rights based on the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father.

In that case you are flatly rejecting the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity based on the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father

That would be a reasonably fair summation of my position.

Nothing I believe or hold dear including liberty equality and fraternity is based on any teachings of any Deity.

In other words it is **baseless **and therefore extremely likely to become debased - like any other irrational belief.

After all, depending on which Deity you chose, you’d have to accept the subjugation of women, a ruling priestly class, the death penalty for apostacy, to name but a few as the epitomy of these qualities of life.

No thanks.

The distortion of Christ’s teaching is akin to its rejection which leads to the subjugation of women by sexploitation (an inevitable consequence of the naked ape doctrine) and also promotes the law of the jungle in which there is a fight to the death between those who have wealth and power and those who have neither, the death penalty for millions of unborn children - to name but a few of the curses inflicted by the megalomania of materialists who regard themselves as **the sole arbiters **of what is good or evil, right and wrong, just or unjust…

 

[tonyrey]

The UK is to some extent a sick society because it is virtually a spiritual desert in which eyebrows are raised if there is any mention of God or prayer…

 

[tonyrey]

Good point.

Most of the UK has a faith of some kind, and I think the majority figures are for Christian based religions, something like 75%.

You are out of date! Many people write C of E on application forms but the percentage of church-goers is more like 5% and hardly anyone has their children baptised.

Yet food banks saw a 100% increase in their need in the last year.

The Trussel Trust has over 200 foodbanks and food banks fed almost 130,000 in the UK last year.

trusselltrust.org/foodbank-projects

If I was a UK Christian, I’d be concentrating on why that’s the case in a tiny group of countries imbued with the Christian values of Equality, Liberty and Fraternity, rather than worrying about a few atheists.

We are a small minority in which there are more than a million children living in poverty - thanks to unChristian capitalism which ensures that land, wealth and power are concentrated in the hands of those whose families have ensured it will pass to their descendants.

 

[levinas12]

Perhaps an expansion into considering the very definition and nature of love is a good direction for this thread to take!

A great idea. It may be necessary to open a new thread on this.