Is Christian faith necessary for Selfless Love?

[tonyrey]

A great idea. It may be necessary to open a new thread on this.

I keep asking for love to be defined but no one has dared to make themselves vulnerable.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Come visit Georgia, USA. It’s difficult to not talk about the Christian faiths here. It’s integrated into the local expressions to the point where I think that some don’t realize when they are invoking religious concepts (something for which some have to be trained to recognize especially when working with groups of people of other faiths.

Though from what I’ve experienced baptists seems to be the most dominant denomination here. (Catholicism was completely foreign to me until recent years.)

 

[atheistgirl]

Tell that to all the parents of children who are dying of disease and malnutritition.

I don’t need to. I’ve mention elsewhere the work I do with poverty, and the sponsorships I endorse. I know full well what these people are going through. It’s in my own not too distant past. I have direct familialy history of starvation, inflicted by the way, by government policy, a government made up of righteous, God fearing, Christians!

Any progress that is being made is due to the belated recognition of human rights based on the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father.

Highly unlikely considering most of the world is not Christian.

In other words it is **baseless **and therefore extremely likely to become debased - like any other irrational belief.

Nope. My life is based on very very solid foundations. They don’t include any Deity though or the whims of those that think they have exclusive knowledge of what this Deity is like and wants. So I’m not likely to be forced into an arranged marriage, denied a vote, subjugated, not allowed to hold office, treated as a breeding machine, forbidden an education, or any other debasing treatment meeted out to women over the years by those that speak for their God.

The distortion of Christ’s teaching is akin to its rejection which leads to the subjugation of women by sexploitation (an inevitable consequence of the naked ape doctrine) and also promotes the law of the jungle in which there is a fight to the death between those who have wealth and power and those who have neither, the death penalty for millions of unborn children - to name but a few of the curses inflicted by the megalomania of materialists who regard themselves as **the sole arbiters **of what is good or evil, right and wrong, just or unjust…

As I said, since one third of the worlds population is Christian of one kind or another, it’s best to address these issues with your Christian brothers and sisters, rather than being worried about a few atheists.

Interestingly, study after study show a correlation between levels of poverty and levels of religiosity, with the poorest areas of the world being the most religious - the exception being the US where some 70% of people say religion is important in their lives.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

That’s interesting to know. I had the impression that the UK and Ireland were very religous countries where religion played quite a big part in daily lives.

Don’t you have Bishops that sit in the government, and Bishops in charge of schools, or am I thinking of somewhere else?

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

I keep asking for love to be defined but no one has dared to make themselves vulnerable.

Smugness is a very ugly emotion

You go right ahead and define it.

I can answer you in a hearbeat and give you a very full definition.

I just can’t be bothered, because it’s not very stimulating when you already know what the person you’re talking to is going to say, and the words they’re going to highlight in their text… naked ape, dialectical materialism, objective, and so on



Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

This Agape word has been hijacked by Christianity.

In the original Greek, it meant nothing more than the love of one’s spouse and family, or of an activity.

Thomas Jay Oord has defined agape as "an intentional response to promote well-being when responding to that which has generated ill-being."

Given it’s original meaning and what Oord says above, the unfamiliar nurse and doctor in the ER positively radiate agape.

Sarah x

Perhaps.

Christianity, then, took the word and baptized it, giving it sanctity. I don’t have a problem with that. That has been the modus of Christianity in all sorts of areas.

Take, for example, festivals. They are pagan in origin and Christianity “hijacked” them and made them holy days. Or holidays.

So now we know what agape means since Christianity has taken it and elevated it.

 

[Sair]

newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

The concept of guilt tends to disappear in a “progressive” secular society, thereby exalting compassion for the criminal at the expense of compassion for the victims…

Indeed. Although I think you’ll find that it’s not just secularists who are good at exalting compassion for criminals, if the relative treatment of the nine-year-old girl and her raping stepfather are any indication…nor, for that matter, if one takes into account the treatment of child-raping priests within the loving fold of the Catholic church.

 

[atheistgirl]

So now we know what agape means since Christianity has taken it and elevated it.

Nope, just added to it.

A swift slice with Occam’s Razor, and all is well

Sarah x

 

[Sair]

A modified quote from Animal Farm! That was an enjoyable book!

Oh, I would hesitate to call it an enjoyable book - instructive, most certainly, but I found that my reading of it (even when I had a very limited understanding of its message about the nature of totalitarianism) was quite distressing :sad_yes:

This comment, of course, assumes that your post was not intended to be ironic! If so, I concur :idea:

 

[PRmerger]

Save the please.

You will not be getting any personal information from me, to prove anything to you. Simples really.

It is of no consequence to me, at all, and never will be, if you believe me or not, about anything. Ever.

But it matters greatly to me not to disrespect and pimp my ancestors sacrifices and memories and information, just to prove a point.

Sarah x

Fair enough.

I’m not sure where this adversarial tone is coming from. I thought we were quite friendly in previous dialogues.

And I should have added (because I thought it) that if I had to have someone “have my back” I’d rather have you and a few other atheists here than some of the Christians I’ve met here on the CAFs.

Keep the posts coming, friend, but take it down a notch. I am not out to get you. Only to make you think.

Faith and reason.

It appears that you use it, too, to believe in the existence of something for which, thus far, there is no evidence.

That’s all.

 

[atheistgirl]

I’m not sure where this adversarial tone is coming from. I thought we were quite friendly in previous dialogues.

I didn’t appreciate the sarcastic comment about my family or the sarcastic roll of the eyes when I’d already told you I was not about to divulge any personal information to you. Your comments if anything changed the tone.

But hey, I’ll have your back any day of the week

I should add I’m not normally ‘‘sensitive’’ to such things, I think I’m just tired. I said two hours ago I was going to bed but I’m still up frustrated trying to get a piece of work finished.

It doesn’t help I keep dipping in here!!!

Ok, I’m resolved. I’m shutting down the Catholic Forum tab!!!

Keep the posts coming, friend, but take it down a notch. I am not out to get you. Only to make you think.

No need for any adjustments - phaser set to stun . One of the reasons I very much enjoy this forum, is for the posts that make me think wider about issues I wouldn’t otherwise be challenged to think about. It’s very interesting.

Sarah x

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Your understanding is consistent with mine.Growing up the only things were heard of Catholicism is that it was an idol worshiping cult that tried to parade itself as Christians. I am glad to say that such things were coupled with other blatently untrue assertions (ex: all non believers really do believe but are Jesus haters plotting against Christians, which to me clearly did not match the description of my Hindu friend that was questioning his beliefs). There was sufficient bad advice to make it apparent to me at least some of what was being said was not from an informed perspective.

Georgia is at “at will” employment state. While it is illegal to fire some one because of their religion one is free to fire some one other other reasons such as “I don’t like her.” For the sake of staying employable I know of a number of non-religious that pretend to be religious and go to a church. In my younger years after working at a place for 3 years some one tried to sell me some Xmas cards. I had no interest. So the person said “But they are Christan themed!” I said “I’m not a Christian.” After that for about the next year I had to deal with my coworkers harassing me daily.

This environment is entirely different from what you’ve described in your nation. Now once one is out of the “bible belt” states there is less pressure to conform.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Oh, I would hesitate to call it an enjoyable book - instructive, most certainly, but I found that my reading of it (even when I had a very limited understanding of its message about the nature of totalitarianism) was quite distressing :sad_yes:

This comment, of course, assumes that your post was not intended to be ironic! If so, I concur :idea:

You’re right, “enjoyable” is a poor choice of words on my part as the over all theme and ending to the book were rather depressing. Nevertheless it is a book I’ve read many times and I’ve recommended it to others. I probably should have said that it was a creative metaphor for presenting a concept in a manner that I think to be easy for many to grasp.

 

[Sair]

[No message]

 

[levinas12]

I keep asking for love to be defined but no one has dared to make themselves vulnerable.

Actually, in response to questions raised by Sair, I’ve just opened a new thread, Does Agape Require Eros?

 

[Sair]

Perhaps.

Christianity, then, took the word and baptized it, giving it sanctity. I don’t have a problem with that. That has been the modus of Christianity in all sorts of areas.

Take, for example, festivals. They are pagan in origin and Christianity “hijacked” them and made them holy days. Or holidays.

So now we know what agape means since Christianity has taken it and elevated it.

Oh, brilliant! Now we can celebrate those aspects of human nature that were there all along, but have now been culturally sanctioned by Christianity. What a stroke of genius on the part of those who want to exert totalitarian control.

 

[Sair]

Considering the remark to which I was responding, it seemed entirely appropriate. If there is a tendency in society to sympathise with offenders rather than victims, it cannot be claimed to be a purely secular tendency.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Would “selfless love” risk one’s life for friends?

And how would we know if it were just lip service? What if somebody actually did it?

How about this dog, who does not share our Christian faith? Is this an example of selfless love? If not, then what is this we’re seeing?

Instinct? If so, then how is Selfless Love via Christian faith, any better than “instinct?”

There are no right or wrong answers for me at this point. I just wanted to ask the questions.

Alan

 

[tonyrey]

Indeed. Although I think you’ll find that it’s not just secularists who are good at exalting compassion for criminals, if the relative treatment of the nine-year-old girl and her raping stepfather are any indication…nor, for that matter, if one takes into account the treatment of child-raping priests within the loving fold of the Catholic church.

It is evident that not everyone is aware of the significance of the phrase Corruptio optima pessima.

The issue is whether the Christian **faith is **necessary for Selfless Love not the way individual Christians behave. Obviously if one doesn’t believe in the soul on the ground that persons are biological machines there is no reason to believe there is a “self”. What would it consist of? Molecules? Electrical impulses?

Materialists definitely believe in selfless love! The question is whether it makes sense to refer to the “love” of one selfless machine for another…

 

[PRmerger]

But hey, I’ll have your back any day of the week

:tiphat:

I should add I’m not normally ‘‘sensitive’’ to such things, I think I’m just tired. I said two hours ago I was going to bed but I’m still up frustrated trying to get a piece of work finished.

That’s exactly what I was thinking. I try to be patient with hyper-sensitive people, but, really, it’s quite tiresome having to tiptoe around these types of people,. trying to make sure you don’t offend them.

I didn’t imagine you were that type. And I guess I was right.

I have a few friends whom I love because I can tell them, “That dress looks horrid on you. What were you thinking?” And they will simply respond with, “You think? Hmm…maybe I will go change!” And not a single hurt feeling to apologize for. And they would do the same to me and I’d kiss them for telling me so.

Much easier that way.