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BobCatholic
Guest
The joy is supposed to happen after this life is done, after the test is complete.
There is no cap and gown until after the tests are complete.
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There is no cap and gown until after the tests are complete.
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BobCatholic
Guest
OK, so how does one know whether the spiritual desolation is a “Dark Night of the Senses” versus God rejecting people?
The Dark Night, I was told, has a period of time of intense joy where God made his presence known in a pleasant consolation. If that is missing, it is not a Dark Night.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
Anyways, yes we are mostly in agreement now. But, let me clarify that the thing about being free, as I had mentioned, is that you have to actually achieve the choice you make. That is why the more difficult a choice the less free you are because there is an increased chance it will not come true.
That is the reason why virtue is highly prized in Christianity. Virtue can be roughly defined as a habitual disposition to do good. Thus, virtue makes doing good easy, and therefore a virtuous man is a free man.
Sacrifice on the other hand (as you noted) is a free choice: to sacrifice is to be willing to suffer, to deprive oneself of a good, so that a greater good can be achieved. And the great thing about Catholicism which is unique to it is that any suffering, even unavoidable suffering, can be made a sacrifice. Anyone can unite his or her suffering with the suffering of Christ, so that one’s suffering can save the world.
That is why I said:
A Christian’s joy is invincible: he is joyful not only in spite of his sufferings but because of them.
I’m sorry for the delay in answering this post, personal life interfered to the point that I was too tired to post for a couple of days
Anyways, yes we are mostly in agreement now. But, let me clarify that the thing about being free, as I had mentioned, is that you have to actually achieve the choice you make. That is why the more difficult a choice the less free you are because there is an increased chance it will not come true.
That is the reason why virtue is highly prized in Christianity. Virtue can be roughly defined as a habitual disposition to do good. Thus, virtue makes doing good easy, and therefore a virtuous man is a free man.
Sacrifice on the other hand (as you noted) is a free choice: to sacrifice is to be willing to suffer, to deprive oneself of a good, so that a greater good can be achieved. And the great thing about Catholicism which is unique to it is that any suffering, even unavoidable suffering, can be made a sacrifice. Anyone can unite his or her suffering with the suffering of Christ, so that one’s suffering can save the world.
That is why I said:
This is because a Christian can always freely offer his suffering as a sacrifice for the world alongside Christ’s, and this will always give joy to the proportion he freely offers his suffering.
A Christian’s joy is invincible: he is joyful not only in spite of his sufferings but because of them.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
You can have joy right here, right now. We will not have the fullness of happiness here on Earth, in that we will not be fully comfortable, secure, nor contemplative on this side of heaven, but joy we can always have here.
Why can I say this with confidence? It is because God cannot command us to do something impossible.
John 16:33 I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
The apostles have shown it.
Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Acts 5:41 The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.
One of the criteria for canonization in the Catholic Church is evidence of “heroic virtue”, of which one sign is the presence of joy in the prospective saint’s life.
St. Thomas Aquinas said: “Man cannot live without joy. That is why one deprived of spiritual joys goes over to carnal pleasures” (II–II, q. 35, art. 4, ad. 2); since we cannot have carnal pleasures in the afterlife he must be talking about joy in this side of life.
Peter Kreeft wrote this whole essay on joy in this life, which he has experienced personally: peterkreeft.com/topics/joy.htm
There is overwhelming testimony from the Church about the abundance of joy in this side of life.
Nope
You can have joy right here, right now. We will not have the fullness of happiness here on Earth, in that we will not be fully comfortable, secure, nor contemplative on this side of heaven, but joy we can always have here.Why can I say this with confidence? It is because God cannot command us to do something impossible.
John 16:33 I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
The apostles have shown it.
Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Acts 5:41 The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.
One of the criteria for canonization in the Catholic Church is evidence of “heroic virtue”, of which one sign is the presence of joy in the prospective saint’s life.
St. Thomas Aquinas said: “Man cannot live without joy. That is why one deprived of spiritual joys goes over to carnal pleasures” (II–II, q. 35, art. 4, ad. 2); since we cannot have carnal pleasures in the afterlife he must be talking about joy in this side of life.
Peter Kreeft wrote this whole essay on joy in this life, which he has experienced personally: peterkreeft.com/topics/joy.htm
There is overwhelming testimony from the Church about the abundance of joy in this side of life.
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MTarcisius
Guest
Your biggest mistake is that you are not providing a credible sourced definition for free or freedom. This means that you are arguing for your own personal interpretation of these concepts.
Webster’s dictionary defines free as “enjoying personal liberty; not enslaved”. You do not actually have to “achieve” the choice you make.
For example, if I choose to climb to the top of a mountain, then I made that choice through freedom. If near the top I encounter a dangerous section then I make another choice by either exercising my freedom and turning around; or by exercising my freedom and continuing forward. The entire time I was “free” to climb to the top of the mountain. The fact that I did not “achieve” the top of the mountain does not mean I was not free to achieve the top of the mountain. (For this example it should be assumed that I was “capable” of reaching the top.)
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MTarcisius
Guest
Exactly! My point is that sacrifice is a free and conscious choice.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ
Uhm didn’t I say I used St. Thomas Aquinas’ theology from the very first post? Why are you now showing me Webster’s definition when from the very beginning I said I am using St. Thomas Aquinas’? Read all about St Thomas Aquinas’s definition and discussion of free will through this link.
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MTarcisius
Guest
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MTarcisius
Guest
You provided your interpretation of Saint Thomas’ theology. You did not provide Saint Thomas’ definition or idea of freedom. Quotes and citations are still relevant on forums.
For the third time: my point is that sacrifice is a free and conscious choice.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
Yet there is the question why anybody would want to make a sacrifice. As we had agreed on, freedom is all about making free and conscious choices. And yet the free will, even if it is not coerced, has to make the best possible choice. Yet if the will judged a choice to be the best choice but it cannot attain this choice, can you call it free?
And yet all I am saying is that it is hard to do, especially the more you have to sacrifice: time, comfort, resources, etc. That’s why it is called a sacrifice. The greater the sacrifice, the less your freedom is because there is a greater chance for you to not be able to do the sacrifice. However if you can do a great sacrifice then your freedom is great.
Yet there is the question why anybody would want to make a sacrifice. As we had agreed on, freedom is all about making free and conscious choices. And yet the free will, even if it is not coerced, has to make the best possible choice. Yet if the will judged a choice to be the best choice but it cannot attain this choice, can you call it free?
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MTarcisius
Guest
I am talking about freedom. You are talking about difficulty. Apparently we are talking about different things.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
Since counsel is part and parcel of free will and thus freedom, if one judges a choice as the best one to choose but it is too difficult to attain, then that person is not free.
Of course I have to talk about difficulty. If you have read from the link I have given, St Thomas Aquinas said this about free will: it is written (Sirach 15:14): ‘“God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel”; and the gloss adds: “That is of his free-will.”’ Free will is based on man’s own counsel, on what he judges is the best choice to pick. “[O]therwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain.”
Since counsel is part and parcel of free will and thus freedom, if one judges a choice as the best one to choose but it is too difficult to attain, then that person is not free.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
Why do you think I posted the following?
+JMJ+
Nope
Why can I say this with confidence? It is because God cannot command us to do something impossible.
John 16:33 I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!
The apostles have shown it.
Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Acts 5:41 The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.
One of the criteria for canonization in the Catholic Church is evidence of “heroic virtue”, of which one sign is the presence of joy in the prospective saint’s life.
St. Thomas Aquinas said: “Man cannot live without joy. That is why one deprived of spiritual joys goes over to carnal pleasures” (II–II, q. 35, art. 4, ad. 2); since we cannot have carnal pleasures in the afterlife he must be talking about joy in this side of life.
Peter Kreeft wrote this whole essay on joy in this life, which he has experienced personally: peterkreeft.com/topics/joy.htm
There is overwhelming testimony from the Church about the abundance of joy in this side of life.
No. Never did say I am one.
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MTarcisius
Guest
You posted that in response to Bob Catholic. It was not necessarily a clarification for realtiger.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
This is realtiger’s thread. Everything in this thread is for his benefit. Of course it is ultimately a clarification for him even though I addressed to BobCatholic. This whole thread is the OP’s.
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MTarcisius
Guest
Sorry for the confusion. The point is not how you clarified your statements. The point is that Catholics are supposed to lead by showing not by telling and also that Catholics are supposed to live through love. I will admit that showing rather than telling is a very difficult prospect on internet forums.
It is my opinion that red bold letters that say “you are doing something wrong” is not love filled. It is however up for debate as to whether it is showing or telling (however I will not debate this at this time).
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
Alright then, if the red highlighted statements are less then charitable then I apologize to you and everyone here. I will inform the moderators about it and I will let them decide on the matter.
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MTarcisius
Guest
Lol, I was only showing you my opinion. There is no reason to become offended or call upon the authorities.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
EDIT: To make things clear I am not offended, but I want to clear the possibility that I made uncharitable statements that might harm other people, which is why I informed the mods.
Too late, already sent the request to the mods.
EDIT: To make things clear I am not offended, but I want to clear the possibility that I made uncharitable statements that might harm other people, which is why I informed the mods.
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MTarcisius
Guest
Haha, that’s epic. I don’t know why they would care…unless they want to stifle freedom of expression…
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