Is Christian Unity Really Possible?

[AlegreFe]

I have a good friend who is a Methodist pastor. His wife is a Catholic. He and his wife both pray for Christian unity, as I do as well. He has never tried to convert his wife, nor has she tried to convert him. I have a lot of respect for him. I was going through a difficult time in my life about 1 1/2 yrs. ago. I asked my Methodist minister friend to pray with me. He did, and I felt like a weight was lifted off of me immediately. He is a good man, and he has helped me much in my spiritual life. I am thankful for his prayers for me.

Wow, that’s great. It’s good to know that there are many non-Catholic Christians out there that pray for us and with us.

 

[AlegreFe]

He definitely did not pray in vain. Since Christ is God and with God all things are possible, I believe that Christian unity will happen. I do not know if it is God’s will that it happens in my lifetime or sometime in the distant future, but since He desires it, I believe that it will happen.

I agree. I also believe that it will happen. I doubt it will be while I’m still on this earth though.

 

[spauline]

End times speculation is not our way

"To speculate on the date of the Second Coming, even if it be only the year, is to seek to wrest a secret from God that Jesus explicitly states only the Father possesses. Therefore, speculating on the timing of our Lord’s return is arrogance bordering on blasphemy. As Bible commentator William Barclay explains, “It is not any man’s duty to speculate; it is his duty to prepare himself, and to watch.”…The aim of Jesus’ discourses on the Second Coming was always to one end: not to give us clues to dates His return, but to exhort us to be prepared.’ “Voice in the Wilderness”, Vol. 11, No.2 Apr-June 2003, p24 (published by Apostoliki Diakonia Committee Greek Orthodox Parish-Community of Saint George, Brisbane)

I am not at all speculating about the “time” of the Second Coming. This is a stigma caused by fundamentalists. Because fundamentalists, in general, ask the wrong TYPES of questions, it is common for the non-fundie to assume that is wrong to ask ANY questions about the apoc. The purpose of the apoc is not merely coded comfort preterism. It is about the MEANING of salvation history, and understanding it from a SPIRITUAL and PSYCHOLOGICAL point of view.

You are right, it is wrong to ask “when” (the day, month, and year) Jesus will return. It is also wrong to ask, “How will the various Gentile nations destroy one another at the very end of the world?” That is not the point. For when humanity will be in a practically incurable apostasy at the very end, it does not matter how the “political scenarios” work out, because, regardless, they will approach total destruction because of their sins. Knowing the details is fruitless.

But I do not ask these sorts of questions. I am asking spiritual questions: what remains for humanity in a SPIRITUAL sense? and why? How do we understand the MEANING of Salvation history? What will the fullness of Gentiles consist in from a spiritual standpoint? And these questions are inseparable from what will become of the gray area religions, such as the Muslims, Orthodox, Prots, Deists/Rationalists, as well as the full children of the devil, the secular messianists. These are the true apocalyptic questions, but again it seems you have completely misunderstood my post. (did you take the time to read it carefully?)

For more elaboration, i suggest you may read this: Intro to Apoc Essays.

blessings to you, Montalban.

 

[spauline]

"Ditto for Protestants. Indeed, their harm is worse, for not only will they not hear the Pope, they will neither hear the bishops in general, nor the Oral Tradition. But they will listen to Scripture."

In my experience, they do listen to scripture, but they twist it. Often it become anti-Catholic, often it becomes the core of a heretical teaching i.e. the apostle whom Jesus loved most etc . . .I agree with the statement, but I also hope that the poster meant that they sometimes take too much liberty with their redactions.For instance, the KJV, and thus the NKJV, were never sanctioned by the Catolic church, only the Anglican. For this reason, the translations often are biased in support of the reformation.

well, yes, admittedly, they do twist the Scriptures, at least objectively. But we need to be careful about classifying them as all ***formal ***heretics, for I think the Church recognizes that most modern Protestants who are devout are merely ***material ***heretics, meaning, they are not fully culpable for their errors, they are just following God as best they can, given what limited information and experience they have. Again, I just can’t see calling children of the devil. Not at all. Even the CCC, in the section on “Wounds to Unity”, points out that Christ is able to use the limited sacraments they have (Baptism and Marriage) and the Written Word of God (at least most of it) that they do have as a means to their salvation. It even goes so far as to say that they, in general, have a right to be called “Christians”. I think it’s just that the ones we tend to encounter on forums are more of the anti-Catholic persons who clearly have more than just an intellectual problem. But even in these cases, I don’t think we can judge them. Who knows why they are they are. Our job is to love them and share the beauty as best as we can.

But I would admit that perhaps some of them ARE formal heretics who are in sin. But who they are , I do not judge.

But anyway, blessings to you, friend of Rome!

 

[Ceil-1]

Jesus prayed for unity. It is clearly the Will of God. Since we must do the Will of God in order to enter the Kingdom, we had better be doing our part. We had better put ourselves far from division. We’d better be praying about it. I think a lot of us who think we’re sitting pretty are really in deep, deep, doo doo.

 

[Friend_Of_Rome]

Just some clarification . . . *The Church has stated that the only heretics of the Reformation were those who perpetuated its fall from the catholic church i.e. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Henry VIII. *The followers are not, nor can be considered heretics due to the fact that many know nothing else. this is where Catholic evangelization comes in. This is where we can really help the whole isue of chirstian unity.

 

[lak611]

Just some clarification . . . *The Church has stated that the only heretics of the Reformation were those who perpetuated its fall from the catholic church i.e. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Henry VIII. *The followers are not, nor can be considered heretics due to the fact that many know nothing else. this is where Catholic evangelization comes in. This is where we can really help the whole isue of chirstian unity.

My parish is having a speaker come in on 12 February to give a talk about what we as laymen should do to evangelize. I’ll post something about it in the Evangelization forums after I attend.

 

[spauline]

Just some clarification . . . *The Church has stated that the only heretics of the Reformation were those who perpetuated its fall from the catholic church i.e. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Henry VIII. *The followers are not, nor can be considered heretics due to the fact that many know nothing else. this is where Catholic evangelization comes in. This is where we can really help the whole isue of chirstian unity.

Yes, I fully agree. Many of them do not know any better, and they are seeking God as best as they can. They just need more information, like you said.

 

[Montalban]

Jesus prayed for unity.

And Jesus loves us all and wants all of us to turn to him.

Ain’t going to happen.

People are people
People are people so why should it be You and I should get along so awfully -Depeche Mode

 

[spauline]

And Jesus loves us all and wants all of us to turn to him.

Ain’t going to happen.

People are people
People are people so why should it be You and I should get along so awfully -Depeche Mode

yeah, well doesn’t this raise the whole apoc debate: in the Catholic Church, it is between the augustinian pessimists and those who favor the mystics, who prophesy of a glorious triumph of the Gospel before the final apostasy.

I think it really boils down to a debate between augustinians, who think the parable of the Wheat and Tares TRUMPS all other apocalyptic data, or whether the texts of Genesis and Revelation trump THAT parable.

In augustinianism, there is a field of weeds and wheat, which means, evidently, that there will always be alot of weeds because “people are people”. Hence, “There can never be an Age of Peace, as the Catholics mystics say, because, there must always be LOTS of weeds in the field.”

I don’t agree. For one, there is a harvest every “year” in this field, because INDIVIDUAL weeds and wheat die their SPECIFIC deaths and are judged PARTICULARLY. So who is to say that at different points in the history of the Church, there could be MORE wheat than weeds. That is, even though we know that at the final harvest , there will be only mostly weeds, how can one argue that the field must ALWAYS have a lot of weeds? What is wrong with believing that just as God gave the Jews a taste of their own medicine in the Babylonian exile and brought about a great restoration of the Jews back to God’s heart and homeland, that God couldn’t do the same with the Gentiles, abandoning this modern world into the consequences of its sins, and that because it will approach levels of disaster that are proportional the end of the world, that the Gentiles repent and are restored to faith?

Secondly, the analogy of the seven days of creation and the seven heads do not show similarity to the parable of the Wheat and Tares. Their imagery is not of a field of that is always GRAY (an even mixture of good and evil), but rather of an ALTERNATION between DARKNESS and LIGHT. That is, each “day” of Creation begins with darkness and ends with light, implying that Salvation history is not a big “gray”, but is rather the *constant alternation of prevalence of first sin, and THEN redemption, And this is how the OT went: the OT history is not structured like one big gray, rather, it ALTERNATES between sin and goodness; First there is the fall and darkness of Noah’s day. Then there is the light of the Flood. Then there is the darkness of Babel, its worldliness and arrogance, followed by the light of national division through confounding languages and the calling one nation, Abraham. Next is the darkness of Egypt and its enslavement, followed by the light of the Exodus. Next, there is the darkness *of the Jewish falling away, followed by the light of the Babylonian exile and Restoration to the Old Cov. Then the darkness of the OT antichrist, Antiochus, followed the light of the true Christ.

And after Christ, the same pattern continues! For no sooner is the Church founded than it passes through the darkness of pagan Rome and its horrific persecutions and resistance to conversion, which gives way to the* light* of Catholic Christendom, the glorious Remaking of man in the image and likeness of God in the order of grace.

And, again, if the general Catholic mystics are right, the pattern continues, for certainly the sun of justice has set again, for the peoples of Europe and her children societies that used to be mostly Christian are now in apostasy, but, again, the mystics prophesy the sun rising once again, through the minor chastisement and the glorious reunion of Christians, the extension of the Gospel in humanity in the Age of Peace, which will truly be a “Sabbath rest” from the sin of history (and note, if you’ve been counting this delineation, this is appropriately the Seventh Day). And, if that were not enough, as the Lord has said, “your Sabbaths are not acceptable to me”, the greater Sabbath follows in the eighth day, for the sun will set a final time in human history in the great apostasy that follows the Age of Peace, ultimately to give way to the “unending, ultimate sabbath”, the Second Coming and New Creation.
…continued below…

 

[spauline]

… continued from above…

is this a coincidence? Especially since this analogy already exists in several ECFs? Is it also a coincidence that the beast has seven heads that are extended to eight in Revelation 17, and that, as we observe below that there were “five” of these days in the OT, and that in that very Revelation 17, it says, “five have fallen”? I don’t think so.

In light of these things, I would say that Catholicism needs to reconsider the ancient tradition of the Fathers. For too long, it assumes that Augustine has solved everything, and that the Wheat and Tares trump the creation and beast.

In conclusion, I firmly believe the more appropriate map of Salvation is not the wheat and tares, but the beginning and end of Scripture: the seven successions of darkness followed by light, instead of a continuous gray.

 

[Contarini]

Frankly, this just sounds like a Catholic brand of dispensationalism. I’ll stick with Augustine any day!

Edwin

 

[spauline]

In fact, if you would like further argumentation, Montalban, you might consider reading the following essay I’ve written:

Christian Disunity and Christ’s Plan for Redemption

In it, I discuss how an augustinian versus a mystic age of peacer would interpret Christ’s Eucharistic discourse on the oneness He prays for. An augustinian says, “there is always great sin in history, there is always GRAY, hence, there will always be disunity”, versus the general mystic position:

“It is NOT gray, for FIRST comes ***sin ***(disunity), THEN comes Redemption (unity).”

 

[Mannyfit75]

I believe Christian unity is possible between Catholics and Orthodox. I doubt any unification with the Protestants.

Protestants will have to convert to Catholicism to truly united with Jesus Christ’s original Church.

 

[spauline]

Frankly, this just sounds like a Catholic brand of dispensationalism. I’ll stick with Augustine any day!

Edwin

Yes, but is fundie dispensationalism UTTERLY devoid of any truth? In Catholic prayers, we say, “from age to age.” I have seen a Catholic history book that uses words like “the AGE of the martyrs,… the AGE of the initial heresies, … the ‘Middle Ages’, the AGE of Protestantism.”

admittedly, fundie disp. is flawed on several counts, but does that necessarily mean that there cannot be understood, in ANY sense, PARTIAL SUB-ages within the two great ones: the Old and the New?

 

[Contarini]

Yes, but is fundie dispensationalism UTTERLY devoid of any truth? In Catholic prayers, we say, “from age to age.” I have seen a Catholic history book that uses words like “the AGE of the martyrs,… the AGE of the initial heresies, … the ‘Middle Ages’, the AGE of Protestantism.”

admittedly, fundie disp. is flawed on several counts, but does that necessarily mean that there cannot be understood, in ANY sense, PARTIAL SUB-ages within the two great ones: the Old and the New?

Well, I’ll let you Catholics fight this out among yourselves. But from my perspective, the Augustinian view you are so eager to reject was a path of liberation from the dispensationalism I grew up with.I shudder at the thought of going back to the world where you were always slooking over your shoulder in fear that the church you attended was too worldly or the pastor wasn’t preaching the truth or the Christian friends you had come to love were really serving the cause of false religion, because we were all on the cusp of apocalypse and the church age was ending and the only thing that mattered was to get in little groups of likeminded people and study the Bible so you would be among the few “overcomers.”
Admittedly, my folks were extreme that way. . . .

Edwin

 

[spauline]

Well, I’ll let you Catholics fight this out among yourselves. But from my perspective, the Augustinian view you are so eager to reject was a path of liberation from the dispensationalism I grew up with.I shudder at the thought of going back to the world where you were always slooking over your shoulder in fear that the church you attended was too worldly or the pastor wasn’t preaching the truth or the Christian friends you had come to love were really serving the cause of false religion, because we were all on the cusp of apocalypse and the church age was ending and the only thing that mattered was to get in little groups of likeminded people and study the Bible so you would be among the few “overcomers.”
Admittedly, my folks were extreme that way. . . .

Edwin

well, OK, but i’m not quite that extreme. I don’t think this is the VERY end. I believe we’re in the second to last great age of sin. In fact, if you read carefully, I believe we’re on the verge of the greatest time to be alive ever in the history of Salvation (before the end of time, that is), namely, the fullness of the Gentiles. It’s just that I’m being realistic about this: do you honestly think the modern world is going to come back to faith without a chastisement? I don’t see it. That is not to say that i don’t pray and do penance with the hopes that a chastisement can be averted. But let’s be realistic: do you see the world repenting before the consequences of its sins come? I just don’t see it happening. And, as I said earlier, it was the same with the Jews. Ultimately, they didn’t repent in time to avert the chastisement. I don’t think there is any difference in human nature between Jew and Gentile. Hence, “there is neither Jew nor Greek…”

But, no, please don’t misunderstand me. If you read carefully, I make it clear that this is NOT the VERY end. But it is looking like it will be DRESS-REHEARSAL for the very end.

But, look, I’m not saying, like a fundie, go run away from the world. We still need to work and live in this world and be Jesus to others, to be that light of love in the darkness. But I am saying, to be realistic, we should be aware of the possibility that we may traverse a period of horrors that is unimaginable, I mean like, possibly, nuclear weapons, etc. and to pray for the grace to endure sufferings and maybe even martyrdom.

But, again, ultimately, I’m optimistic, the age of peace comes, with or without a chastisement.

 

[happygal]

Christian unity could be possible. In fact today service, i had this wonderful message from a visiting Pastor from Sweden, he mentioned that they things that we protestant can learn from tradtion churches like the Catholics…blar…blar…Amen to that!!!

 

[Montalban]

In fact, if you would like further argumentation, Montalban, you might consider reading the following essay I’ve written:

More argument? I bearly understand what you’ve written so far

 

[Montalban]

Christian unity could be possible. In fact today service, i had this wonderful message from a visiting Pastor from Sweden, he mentioned that they things that we protestant can learn from tradtion churches like the Catholics…blar…blar…Amen to that!!!

Evryone forgets about us Orthodox!