Is "Common Sense" a Valid Source for Atheist Moral Norms?

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Ha. A colleague of mine just showed me that the “appeal to common sense” is listed as a logical fallacy in contemporary text. I was unaware as I studied the classic fallacies, mostly.
I think the appeal to common sense is not so much a fallacy as an argument limited by the possibility of exceptions or errors in evaluating the evidence. Common sense usually appeals to the self-evident nature of a truth, but some truth are more self evident than others.

I’m speculating here that to list Common Sense as a fallacy in a modern textbook may well stem from the tendency today by liberal authors of academic textbooks to regard any kind of traditional thinking as fallacious or suspect. Chesterton regarded some types of common sense as universal and absolute, such as that “a man cannot jump down his own throat.”
 
I think the appeal to common sense is not so much a fallacy as an argument limited by the…
I think the underlying problem is that it can refer, as an appeal, to literally anything. It is limited only by the appellant’s imagination.
 
Ha. A colleague of mine just showed me that the “appeal to common sense” is listed as a logical fallacy in contemporary text. I was unaware as I studied the classic fallacies, mostly.

That kind of settles it, doesn’t it? The answer is “no”.

Welp, good enough. Lock thread!👍
Whoa there. You wouldn’t want to give the impression you’re suddenly rather anxious to close the debate.

Are we allowed to see this text? Is it in a blog? Any man and his dog can write a blog. Let’s see the definition. And please say how you think it applies to what anyone has claimed. Then we can decide whether it’s settled.
 
I appreciate your view, but tribalism only promotes that good within the tribe. If a rival tribe is moving in on your turf, it is often conveyed as “righteousness” to perform any number of wrongs to those rivals that would be verboten among members of the same tribe. If you succeed in killing them or running them off, your tribe is more ecologically secure as a result.

In short, tribes may not kill within the tribe (aside from occasional leadership disputes and deliberate tribal culling when over-large) but they have displayed unquestioned willingness to kill members of other tribes for the same reason you provide - common benefit. This isn’t even limited to people. Dolphins and chimps have been documented displaying the same behavior.

“This guy is my kinsman. We will help provide for each other. That guy over there is stealing food from our land! Get him!” said in a tone of righteous indignation

Tribalism, verily, is blood-soaked.
Sorry, I’m in a bit of a hurry, but there’s something that I wanted to contribute.

A great many things, including morality, can be understood by following your line of reasoning. And by understanding why some things survive, and some don’t.

Our ancestors likely began as small familial groups. With shared histories, experiences, and codes of conduct. These shared identities are what held these families together as a group. But when faced with an adversary, a group…in the majority of cases, is only as strong as the numbers that it can bring to bear against that adversary. The greater the numbers, the greater the likelihood of success. Thus a group’s strength, and its survivability, is measured by it’s ability to instill a shared sense of identity. Marked in almost all cases by a shared sense of truth and morality as well. Not only is such unity necessary for the groups protection from outside agents, but such shared morality also acts as an arbiter of internal conflicts as well. Keeping the group together, and protecting it from fragmentation and the vulnerability that such fragmentation ultimately produces. The survival of a group is determined by its size, and its size is determined by its ability to unify people under a shared identity or code of morals and truths. Thus as groups evolved, they carried with them the same set of moral truths. Because such truths facilitated the survival of the group.

Thus family groups, gave rise to tribal groups, which gave rise to ethnic groups, which gave rise to cultural groups, which gave rise to what were historically some of the most powerful groups of all…religious groups. Each group successively adhering to the same underlying set of moral standards, from which it had arisen. For the simple reason that those standards worked. Subgroups occasionally deviated from the larger group but never completely abandoned its underlying moral codes.

Religions were successful because they could unify people across families, and tribes, and ethnicities, and cultures. And thus they could create a larger group than could be created by any of the other groups alone. But religions carried with them a set of moral standards that weren’t of their own creating, but were instead a product of those groups which had preceded them.

Morals aren’t the product of religion, or God, they’re the product of survival. The larger the group that you can hold together under a given set of moral standards, then the more likely you were to survive. Standards that work…equal survival…standards that don’t…equal annihilation.

This being the case, it’s easy to see how religion prospered, but it’s also difficult to see how it will survive with its fundamental premises being subjected to greater and greater skepticism. Religion should in some sense be applauded for what it’s passed on to us, but it should also be recognized for what it is, a means of unifying one group of people against another, and amongst themselves.

I don’t think that religion needs to die, but I think that it needs to change. It needs to realize that the morals that they gave us are more important than the Gods that they gave us.
 
When confronted with “for-instances” concerning right and wrong, atheists will often appeal to “common sense” as a metric for providing a solution for resolve.

However, how does an atheist explain when my “common sense” yields a different answer from their “common sense” for the same problem? And when that exists, how can it possibly be a valid metric by which we determine what’s morally “right”?

Is an appeal to “common sense” merely a more authoritative-looking version of “well, I think…”? After all, it was “common sense” to the Aztecs that human-sacrifice was the solution for a poor harvest.

How do I confirm the truth of “common sense” in a way that is more independently and materially reproducible than the way I confirm religious truth that atheists eschew?
Do what is good for you and others. That is related to prisoner dilemma.
 
I don’t think that religion needs to die, but I think that it needs to change. It needs to realize that the morals that they gave us are more important than the Gods that they gave us.
Well, now at least we know you are an atheist/agnostic.

It is the fallacy of begging the question to say that morals are more important than God, since there is no way you can prove that except to say that God is not important at all because he doesn’t exist. But where’s the proof for that?
 
How does evidence provide a moral norm?
That wasn’t the question you asked. You wanted a ‘more independent and materially reproducible’ method of confirming if common sense is true in any particular case. Evidence is how you do that.
“It is wrong to steal.” How is that concept proofed by evidence in the atheist worldview?
I was going to spend some time expounding on this, but I see that StKate and EnosJaden to a greater extent have already gotten there before me.
It comes from years of social norms being established as well as seeing what benefits the group as a whole. As we evolved humans found that it is far more beneficial to not kill each other. Yes we developed a tribal mentality but for the good of the tribe we saw things like stealing to not benefit. Those that did these things usually were pushed out and left to fend on their own.
And to summarise EnosJadon’s position, which mirrors mine:
Morals aren’t the product of religion, or God, they’re the product of survival. The larger the group that you can hold together under a given set of moral standards, then the more likely you were to survive. Standards that work…equal survival…standards that don’t…equal annihilation.
I see that as being self evident.
It is the fallacy of begging the question to say that morals are more important than God, since there is no way you can prove that except to say that God is not important at all because he doesn’t exist. But where’s the proof for that?
I personally would have no problem in anyone claiming that God suffered those who did not follow moral laws (as perhaps He designed) such as ‘do not steal’ to die. As a result of being ostracised at a time when that would have been considered a life and death situation. Hence all those who felt is was the right thing to do (and reciprocal altruism and empathy leads to those sort of decisions) would survive to pass on those traits to further generations.

With the odd exception, we all have a natural tendency to help our fellow man. It’s inbuilt. Installed by evolutionary processes, so that even very young children exhibit it. And the process designed by God? Well, if you wish…
 
That wasn’t the question you asked. You wanted a ‘more independent and materially reproducible’ method of confirming if common sense is true in any particular case. Evidence is how you do that.
Yours is a good meta- so I’ll respond to more than just you by responding to yours:

Not allowed to ask follow-ups?
Appeals to common sense are logical fallacies. And I’ve yet to see evidence of any objective moral virtue. I am begging for one.

In that way they are more “buzzwords” for the circular reasoning that delays the question. “The common sense of theft being wrong as evidenced by the thief going to jail because theft is against the law as a matter of common sense.”

You still haven’t shown, objectively, why theft is wrong. In this same vein, human sacrifice can be defended by poor harvests.
I was going to spend some time expounding on this, but I see that StKate and EnosJaden to a greater extent have already gotten there before me.
The societal evolution of tribe to ethnicity to culture to religion is true. Dr. Jordan Peterson expounded on it masterfully in his “Maps of Meaning”.

What you’re leaving out is that the benefits of these groups require membership in them as well. And when you eschew subservience to the dominant arch-types of these social dominance hierarchies, you also eschew the benefits of membership. In the case of religion, you lose the engine that drives the personal meaning and societal morality they provide when you reject the top-authority that enforces it.

You can’t “have your cake and eat it too”, I’m afraid.
I see that as being self evident.
What you’re deliberately ignoring is that the morality provided by the tribal group was purely relative. Murdering a productive tribe member over a squabble hurt the tribe as a whole. Murdering the leader of the rival tribe got you in bed with the lady(ies) of your choice as well as the admiration of the other men in the group. Hero status via murder.
Murder wasn’t wrong.
Murdering "US" was wrong.
With the odd exception, we all have a natural tendency to help our fellow man. It’s inbuilt. Installed by evolutionary processes, so that even very young children exhibit it. And the process designed by God? Well, if you wish…
Flatly wrong. Your “natural tendency to help” is absolutely learned.

Young children (the least trained, normed humans on earth) are the most vicious of all when placed in large groups and left to themselves. Jockeying for pecking order, envy of the leaders and ostracization of perceived inferiors happens*** immediately***. Young children have absolutely killed other young children in an unsupervised group setting…

Good grief. What a total fantasy you believe in.
 
Appeals to common sense are logical fallacies. And I’ve yet to see evidence of any objective moral virtue.
Appeals to common sense can be, and often are wrong. I have lost count of the number of times that I have heard that an argument proposed by any given Catholic is correct simply because it is based on common sense (and this in regard to scientific matters). The argument is often, in those cases, fallacious.

So it should be the first stage in deciding whether something is true or not, especially if the matter is important enough, not the only method. Hence the requirement for evidence.
You still haven’t shown, objectively, why theft is wrong. In this same vein, human sacrifice can be defended by poor harvests.
In regard to why we class theft as being morally wrong, it’s relatively straight forward. If you have enough food for yourself and your family and someone steals it, then you go hungry (we’re talking hunter gatherer times). So you naturally feel hard done by. You have to spend more time hunting and gathering and there is a danger you will fail and you and family members could die. You conclude that it is wrong to have someone steal your food.

If the thief is a member of your group and the whole group suffers, then everyone feels hard done by and the thief, if discovered, is ostracised. Which could well lead to an early grave. So he doesn’t get to pass on his less than beneficial genes. Hence stealing is seen as wrong. It becomes what we describe as morally wrong. If you want to know why everyone doesn’t steal, then you need to read up on game theory.

You, however, discover that if you share your food with others, then they will reciprocate when you don’t have much. Because they realise that they will generally benefit if they are short and you have an excess. Those who don’t share are removed from the gene pool and those who do get to pass on this trait to their offspring and it becomes what we describe as altruistic behaviour.

And if you mean that theft is objectively wrong, then I must disagree. It is relative to the situation: ‘Stealing is wrong IF…’.

As to human sacrifice and harvests, then we’re back to evidence. If killing X amount of people did improve the harvest, then we’d have a problem. But it doesn’t take a great deal of record keeping to know that it doesn’t. Hence we don’t. Human sacrifice was about power: ‘We decide who lives and dies, so don’t mess with us. And oh yeah, it’ll make the corn grow better as well, so you’ll all benefit (if there’s a bad harvest, we either killed the wrong people or not enough people or we killed them at the wrong time or…whatever…
What you’re deliberately ignoring is that the morality provided by the tribal group was purely relative. Murdering a productive tribe member over a squabble hurt the tribe as a whole. Murdering the leader of the rival tribe got you in bed with the lady(ies) of your choice as well as the admiration of the other men in the group.
It doesn’t seem obvious to me that killing a member of another tribe is a zero sum exercise. In fact, the downside could be considerable. Again, it doesn’t take a Rhodes Scholar to realise that if you stop killing the other guys, they may well stop killing you. And in fact, if one of your daughters marries one of their sons, then it could be beneficial all around. This is pretty basic stuff.
Young children (the least trained, normed humans on earth) are the most vicious of all when placed in large groups and left to themselves. Jockeying for pecking order, envy of the leaders and ostracization of perceived inferiors happens*** immediately***.
There is more expert literature on reciprocal altruism that I could poke a stick at. This example showing a child helping an adult stranger with no prompting is a good example. And yes, there are studies that suggest that if a child actually has a connection with the stranger, however tenuous, it increases altruistic behaviour. That doesn’t preclude innate altruistic behaviour in itself and simply reinforces the presence of reciprocal altruism without it needed to be taught. youtube.com/watch?v=aS-QLB8ELyk
 
Common sense simply refers to the set of ideas that are common at a certain place and a certain period of time.

So common sense changes.

In Nazi Germany or North Korea today common sense would be different to what people in western countries would think it is.

Common sense can be manipulated by media and education as we have seen in the west quite dramatically over the last 100 years.
 
Appeals to common sense are logical fallacies.
I asked you to cite a source for this claim, can you do so? Declaring something a fallacy by fiat doesn’t make it so!
Flatly wrong. Your “natural tendency to help” is absolutely learned.
Young children (the least trained, normed humans on earth) are the most vicious of all when placed in large groups and left to themselves. Jockeying for pecking order, envy of the leaders and ostracization of perceived inferiors happens*** immediately***. Young children have absolutely killed other young children in an unsupervised group setting…
Good grief. What a total fantasy you believe in.
Please cite evidence for this claim, which is the opposite of studies showing altruism and cooperation are natural in small children:

news.stanford.edu/news/2008/november5/tanner-110508.html
youtube.com/watch?v=Z-eU5xZW7cU

Although, contrary to common sense, children with religious parents may be less altruistic and more judgmental:

news.uchicago.edu/article/2015/11/05/religious-upbringing-associated-less-altruism-study-finds
 
I asked you to cite a source for this claim, can you do so? Declaring something a fallacy by fiat doesn’t make it so!
Quick google search yielded on the first page:
corkskeptics.org/2011/05/03/the-common-sense-fallacy/
mcckc.edu/longview/socsci/psyc/westra/CommonSense/cs4.html
logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/15/Alleged-Certainty
Please cite evidence for this claim, which is the opposite of studies showing altruism and cooperation are natural in small children:
Sure. It’s called “bullying”. You’ve heard of it, I’m sure. A few from the Google Scholar
tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00094056.2002.10522721
link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-9116-7_5

And I’ll just provide one on bullying deaths from the sad bevy I have to choose from:
degruyter.com/view/j/ijamh.2008.20.2/ijamh.2008.20.2.235/ijamh.2008.20.2.235.xml
Although, contrary to common sense, children with religious parents may be less altruistic and more judgmental:
Perhaps so! Although I offer the notion independent of religious schema.
 
The appeal to common sense might or not be a fallacy, depending on the self-evident nature of the appeal. Again, citing Chesterton, it is common sense that one cannot jump down one’s own throat. Only an insane person would allege this is possible.

Simply put, the appeal to common sense is not an automatic fallacy and should not be regarded as such since that in itself would be the fallacy of hasty generalization (the notion that all appeals to authority are fallacies because some are).
 
Appeals to common sense can be, and often are wrong.
I’m glad you agree. It’s apparently fallacious for everyone, Catholic and atheist alike.
…And if you mean that theft is objectively wrong, then I must disagree. It is relative to the situation: ‘Stealing is wrong IF…’.
The question was about why theft was objectively wrong. You attempted to justify it, gave some weird notion that thieves don’t pass on their apparent “thieving-gene”, then transitioned to “wrong-ness” of theft actually being subjective.

So, then, theft is not objectively wrong? The end justifies the means?
This leads to, “Who/What determines if the “end” is good?” Egoism? (I hear “Right of Might” creeping up). This is yet another delay of the same question…

I hope you understand “theft” was an arbitrary stand-in for any moral construct.
…Human sacrifice was about power: ‘We decide who lives and dies, so don’t mess with us. And oh yeah, it’ll make the corn grow better as well, so you’ll all benefit (if there’s a bad harvest, we either killed the wrong people or not enough people or we killed them at the wrong time or…whatever…
Excellent treatise on social dominance hierarchies and the rule of law.
…Again, it doesn’t take a Rhodes Scholar to realise that if you stop killing the other guys, they may well stop killing you.
It also doesn’t take a Rhodes scholar to see that if they choose not to see it your way (as they freely can in a perfectly relative worldview) you’ll be killed and what was previously yours will become theirs, increasing their security even further (which was their aim all along).
There is more expert literature on reciprocal altruism that I could poke a stick at.
Crud, I answered the same question somewhere else first. It’s called “bullying”. Please see:
Click the blue arrow
 
We can all do a quick google search. Which definition in which of those links do you claim applies here? I asked you (post #23) to please say how you think it applies to what anyone has claimed. This is the third time of asking.
Sure. It’s called “bullying”. You’ve heard of it, I’m sure. A few from the Google Scholar
tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00094056.2002.10522721

link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-9116-7_5
And I’ll just provide one on bullying deaths from the sad bevy I have to choose from:
degruyter.com/view/j/ijamh.2008.20.2/ijamh.2008.20.2.235/ijamh.2008.20.2.235.xml
Let’s try again.

Brad (post #27): “With the odd exception, we all have a natural tendency to help our fellow man. It’s inbuilt. Installed by evolutionary processes, so that even very young children exhibit it.”

You (post #28): “Flatly wrong. Your “natural tendency to help” is absolutely learned.”

I asked you for evidence for your claim, because all the studies I’ve seen demonstrate that altruism and cooperation are natural, not learned. Your links don’t mention anything about your claim, nor do they even say bullying is natural rather than learned. We’re all aware that children of racists learn to bully, but other children play together happily. Can you please cite evidence for your claim that “natural tendency to help” is absolutely learned?
 
The appeal to common sense might or not be a fallacy, depending on the self-evident nature of the appeal. Again, citing Chesterton, it is common sense that one cannot jump down one’s own throat. Only an insane person would allege this is possible.

Simply put, the appeal to common sense is not an automatic fallacy and should not be regarded as such since that in itself would be the fallacy of hasty generalization (the notion that all appeals to authority are fallacies because some are).
👍 (:))
 
We can all do a quick google search. Which definition in which of those links do you claim applies here? I asked you (post #23) to please say how you think it applies to what anyone has claimed. This is the third time of asking.
As they are all providing the roughly the same definition - minor wording differences notwithstanding - your request has been provided. They’re all from organizations or colleges, so they’re a bit more “legit” than a “Youtube” link (which is held in similar academic regard as “wikis” - dubious).

You ask again because you don’t like the answer, I presume? If that’s the case, “trying again” would be a waste of time. The problem isn’t one of “fact”, it’s of “acceptance”. I can’t help you with that.
I asked you for evidence for your claim, because all the studies I’ve seen demonstrate that altruism and cooperation are natural, not learned. Your links don’t mention anything about your claim, nor do they even say bullying is natural rather than learned. We’re all aware that children of racists learn to bully, but other children play together happily. Can you please cite evidence for your claim that “natural tendency to help” is absolutely learned?
I’ll concede that my wording could have been better. So let’s be “pedantic”, to use a word others may prefer.

I’ve seen no proof for the existence of “innate altruism”. None.

There are, however, veritable oceans of examples where we will willingly help others for either direct, material benefit or in accordance with our learned behavior (religious or otherwise).

While I have ZERO logical obligation to prove you wrong, here’s an article rebuking innate altruism from Stanford I found in seconds:
news.stanford.edu/news/2014/december/altruism-triggers-innate-121814.html

Kids have a social dominance hierarchy just like everything else. They provide one example of the “micro” that matches the “macro” of tribal behavior that dominated prehistoric humanity and is still observable in humanity to this very day - as we can see every autumn when Michigan and Ohio State play each other on the football field.
 
I’ll concede that my wording could have been better. So let’s be “pedantic”, to use a word others may prefer.

I’ve seen no proof for the existence of “innate altruism”. None.
Would you distinguish between “innate altruism” and “natural altruism?”

For me an innate trait would be one which cannot be altered.

For example, aging is an innate trait.

A natural trait is found everywhere among humans but can be altered (increased, decreased) at will or even as the result of a learning process. For examples: altruism, greed, aggression, etc.

So altruism seems to be a natural as opposed to an innate trait.
 
Crud, I answered the same question somewhere else first. It’s called “bullying”. Please see:
The one doesn’t preclude the other. You need to show that reciprocal alteuism is learned as opposed to innate. All the evidence points to it being innate.
 
Would you distinguish between “innate altruism” and “natural altruism?”
For me an innate trait would be one which cannot be altered.
Honestly, no. They’re the same idea, perhaps used in different technical contexts.

Something that can’t be altered would probably be “fixed”.
A natural trait is found everywhere among humans but can be altered (increased, decreased) at will or even as the result of a learning process. For examples: altruism, greed, aggression, etc.

So altruism seems to be a natural as opposed to an innate trait.
Your examples might be better described as “behaviors”. As to whether any particular one is learned or innate, welcome to the social sciences of Sociology and Psychology.

The Stanford study (one of, I’m sure, many) seem to disagree with the innateness of altruism.
The one doesn’t preclude the other. You need to show that reciprocal alteuism is learned as opposed to innate. All the evidence points to it being innate.
You obviously didn’t read the study. I found an exception suggested by credible academy on the first page of a Google search.

“All the evidence points to it being innate.” - Factually incorrect and demonstrably so with almost no effort. Irrationally claimed.

The echo-chamber returns.
 
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