Is conversion the only way to becoming a nun? (Sorry about the length, its important)

[odubhghail]

There are nuns in non Catholic forms of Christianity, notably the Eastern Orthodox. There are also Anglican nuns. There are one or two Lutheran orders of nuns-but the only one whose name I know would be the Ecumenical Sisters of Mary, founded, I believe, by Mother Basilea Schlinck at the end of World War II. Their charism is atonement for the Holocaust (I think), but they do engage in active ministry. So, no, conversion to Catholicism is not required to be a ‘nun’-in the loosest sense, as referring to all female religious-but conversion to a group that has religious life would be required. Most important, though, is the conversion of heart required of every Christian.

 

[JReducation]

There are nuns in non Catholic forms of Christianity, notably the Eastern Orthodox. There are also Anglican nuns. There are one or two Lutheran orders of nuns-but the only one whose name I know would be the Ecumenical Sisters of Mary, founded, I believe, by Mother Basilea Schlinck at the end of World War II. Their charism is atonement for the Holocaust (I think), but they do engage in active ministry. So, no, conversion to Catholicism is not required to be a ‘nun’-in the loosest sense, as referring to all female religious-but conversion to a group that has religious life would be required. Most important, though, is the conversion of heart required of every Christian.

Catholics have to be careful. The outside of the Catholic Church, the only vows that the Church recognizes as valid are two:

Ecumenical communties approved by the Church and all Orthodox religious orders.

The Orthodox have apostolic succession; therefore, they can receive the profession of religious. The Orthodox do not have sisters or communities with simple vows, because they separation came before the birth of this form of religious life. All religious in the Orthodox Church are monastic and make solemn vows. They follow the same rule as religious in the Eastern Catholic Church, the rule of St. Basil.

There were other communities among the Anglicans and Lutherans, such as Franciscans. However, the Franciscans reduced the Protestant Franciscans to a Society. They are no longer a religious order. Many rules require that the religious vow obedience to the Pope and the major superior. The required obedience to the Pope is the big bump on the road. Most of these rules that require obedience to the Pope were written after the separation between east and west to preserve the fidelity of the religious communities.

The ecumenical communities such as the Brothers of Taize and others fall under a different category. I’m not sure what that is. I believe that their vow of obedience is to the major superior and to legitimate eccesial authority. I would suspect, please don’t take this to the bank, that this means that a Catholic would be bound to obey the Holy Father, but not a non Catholic member.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[odubhghail]

I am not sure that many groups must take a vow of obedience to the pope-in fact, I believe this is unique to the Jesuits. Not all Jesuits make this fourth vow.
If a Lutheran or Anglican wishes to be a consecrated person within their own ecclesial communities, there are opportunities to do so. We do not recognize their ordinations as valid, but we do recognize them as fellow travellers on the road to Christ, and there are more than a few holy people within their boundaries.

 

[JReducation]

I am not sure that many groups must take a vow of obedience to the pope-in fact, I believe this is unique to the Jesuits. Not all Jesuits make this fourth vow.
If a Lutheran or Anglican wishes to be a consecrated person within their own ecclesial communities, there are opportunities to do so. We do not recognize their ordinations as valid, but we do recognize them as fellow travellers on the road to Christ, and there are more than a few holy people within their boundaries.

All religious in solemn vows are bound by obedience to the pope. The obedience is part of the rule that religious in solemn vows live by. Religious in simple vows vary because their statutes may or may not explicitly mention obedience to the pope. However, it is understood that a vow of obedience by Catholic religious include obedience to the Major Superior, local superior, the community chapter, the General Chapter, the constitutions of the community, the local bishop in matters of diocesan ministries, and the Holy See.

As I mentioned in the above paragraph, some communities assume that the vow of obedience is clearly understood to include all legitimate ecclesial and cival authourity. But some founders such as Francis of Assisi, Ignatius of Loyola, Mother Teresa of Calcutta and St. Clare specifically mention the Pope in their statutes.

Franciscans, by default, make a solemn vow of obedience to the Holy Father, St. Francis, his successors and to their brothers or sisters in community. The Jesuits actually have a fourth vow. The effect is the same.

The Benedictines make only one vow, Obedience. No chastity or poverty. These are included in the Rule of St. Benedict and so is obedience to the pope. To obey St. Benedict and hsi rule includes obedience to the pope.

Each community words it differently, but as long as they make a solemn vow or they are a community with simple vows, but of Pontifical Right, they are bound by obedience to the Pope.

That being said, there are ordinary situations of everyday obedience, such as when the Pope makes a decree for the entire Church and then there are situations that are under obedience. These are situations when the Pope orders a religious or a community under pain of sin, to obey. This is rarely used, but the Pope has the authority to invoke it. He is the highest ranking Major Superior of all religious communities in the Catholic Church.

Without the papacy, the vows would not be valid, because the vows of a religious are received by the Church and authorized by the Church. Public vows can only be made with the approval of the Church. The person who receives the vows receives them in the name of the Church. Religious make public vows. Only secular institutes make private vows. Secular Orders also make public vows. Thus, they are bound to the Holy See as well.

Hope this helps.

JR

 

[graceandglory]

Why don’t you start by studying Sisters first?
Maybe check out a movie like “Therese” or “The Song of Bernadette” for starters. Read The Diary of Saint Faustina, for an example of what life in a convent is like.

Most Sisters spend much in prayer with their prayer books, or praying the 15 decade rosary.

You could start out by learning to pray the rosary, and praying it daily. You could take part daily in the Liturgy of the Hours, the “prayer of the Church.” You could pick up a copy of Introduction to the Devout Life by Saint Francis de Sales. That could get you on the road to living as a nun in your daily life.

You can consecrate yourself by making a permanent vow of chastity.

You really are going to have to narrow down the pantheism to the one true God who is the Creator of the Universe, and get to know his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, Jesus, that whosoever believeth in Him should not suffer eternal damnation, but have everlasting life in Heaven, eternal bliss with God.

 

[JReducation]

Why don’t you start by studying Sisters first?
Maybe check out a movie like “Therese” or “The Song of Bernadette” for starters. Read The Diary of Saint Faustina, for an example of what life in a convent is like.

Most Sisters spend much in prayer with their prayer books, or praying the 15 decade rosary.

You could start out by learning to pray the rosary, and praying it daily. You could take part daily in the Liturgy of the Hours, the “prayer of the Church.” You could pick up a copy of Introduction to the Devout Life by Saint Francis de Sales. That could get you on the road to living as a nun in your daily life.

You can consecrate yourself by making a permanent vow of chastity.

You really are going to have to narrow down the pantheism to the one true God who is the Creator of the Universe, and get to know his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, Jesus, that whosoever believeth in Him should not suffer eternal damnation, but have everlasting life in Heaven, eternal bliss with God.

This is good advice. Before you make a perpetual vow of celibacy, you should get good spiritual direction. If you change your mind, you are bound by the vow until you are dispensed by the proper ecclesial authority, even if the vow is private.

Another great classic on religious life for women (and men) is Teresa of Avila’s The Way of Perfection. She outlines the contemplative dimension of the religious life very well and in very easy to understand steps. The formation process for each community of women is different, but they all include a canonical year of novitiate, a period of temporary vows from three to five years and final vows for life.

You would have to narrow down a few communities of either sisters or nuns that interest you and begin to read about their formation program and their life.

There are many wonderful communities out there of both sisters and nuns. You should check out both, because sisters and nuns are not the same and do not make the same vows or live the same lifestyle. Sisters external and nuns are cloistered. Most nuns have no external apostolate. If you do want a cloistered community with an external apostolate I would recommend the Nuns of the Visitation. They run apostolates within the monastery.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[odubhghail]

Benedictines make three vows: stability (to the chosen house); conversion of manners (which involves embracing the monastic way, therefore poverty and chastity) and obedience.

 

[JReducation]

Benedictines make three vows: stability (to the chosen house); conversion of manners (which involves embracing the monastic way, therefore poverty and chastity) and obedience.

Thanks for that (name removed by moderator)ut. It is true that they do vow stability and conversion of manners. When I was posting, I was thinking of the traditional profession of vows, the evangelical counsels: chastity, poverty and obedience. I did not mean to ignore conversion and stability.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[GilChrist77]

I have been Catholic my whole life and have been called to be a nun. Being a nun is not only about the lifestyle, trust me if it were only about the lifestyle I would not be a nun, I would not live in NYC and I would not give up having kids, BUT I am going to do all these things because it is not about the lifestyle. To me being a nun is about two things, one, it’s about being asked, you can not chose to be a nun you have to be asked by God to be a nun. Two, it’s about being so in love with Jesus Christ that you can not find it in you to love one man above every other man the way a woman loves her husband. So I can’t see how you could hear the Lord asking you to marry Him if you don’t believe in Him, that just doesn’t make any sense to me. Maybe the Lord put this thought in your head as a way to invite you to find out more. I don’t know your life or your circumstances so I can’t say for sure but I would encourge you to think about maybe finding out more about the Catholic Faith.

JMJ+
~Betsy

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Without the papacy, the vows would not be valid, because the vows of a religious are received by the Church and authorized by the Church. Public vows can only be made with the approval of the Church. The person who receives the vows receives them in the name of the Church. Religious make public vows. Only secular institutes make private vows. Secular Orders also make public vows. Thus, they are bound to the Holy See as well.

I believe that the vows an Orthodox monk takes (this word, monk, really goes for both men and women) are seen as being valid.

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

I have been Catholic my whole life and have been called to be a nun. Being a nun is not only about the lifestyle, trust me if it were only about the lifestyle I would not be a nun, I would not live in NYC and I would not give up having kids, BUT I am going to do all these things because it is not about the lifestyle. To me being a nun is about two things, one, it’s about being asked, you can not chose to be a nun you have to be asked by God to be a nun. Two, it’s about being so in love with Jesus Christ that you can not find it in you to love one man above every other man the way a woman loves her husband. So I can’t see how you could hear the Lord asking you to marry Him if you don’t believe in Him, that just doesn’t make any sense to me. Maybe the Lord put this thought in your head as a way to invite you to find out more. I don’t know your life or your circumstances so I can’t say for sure but I would encourge you to think about maybe finding out more about the Catholic Faith.

JMJ+
~Betsy

I agree, Betsy! Being called to the religious life is SO much more than a lifestyle that we are choosing to live. It’s about living for Jesus Christ ONLY! If He hasn’t invited you to live as a nun, sister, brother, priest, etc. you will not be able to do it. With the invitation comes the graces necessary to live the life. I’ve even known people who I thought had the graces necessary, but it turned out, they did not. They tried to choose the life for themselves, and it did not work. I’m not going to say that Jesus is not trying to put this invitation in your heart, AngelFairy. I do not know that, but what I do know is that you must convert to Catholicism to be a Catholic nun. Whether or not you do that is ultimately your choice. I hope that whatever you choose gives you peace. God bless you!

 

[JReducation]

I believe that the vows an Orthodox monk takes (this word, monk, really goes for both men and women) are seen as being valid.

Yes, and I said that above somewhere. They are valid because the Orthodox Church has Apostolic Succession. Vows are received in the name of the Church and the Orthodox are valid Churches.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Sharon_xx]

Dear AF - Just to confirm what the others have already said no, you don’t have to convert to become a nun. I have stayed with a Poor Clare’s order of Anglican nuns in the past. I’m also about to start my discernment to become a Benedictine Oblate where you live the Rule of Benedict and adhere as closely as you can to the life of the community you’re affiliated to but remain in the secular world.

Although I am in the process of converting to Catholicism this is not a requirement to becoming an Oblate in all cases. The Abbey I’m linked to is a Catholic Benedictine Community but they welcome Oblates from all Christian denominations. So depending on what degree of vocational life you’re seeking cloistered, secular, catholic or christian there’ll probably be something out there to suit you as I know all these things are available in the States too.

Every blessing

Pax

Sharon xx

 

[JReducation]

Dear AF - Just to confirm what the others have already said no, you don’t have to convert to become a nun. I have stayed with a Poor Clare’s order of Anglican nuns in the past. Sharon xx

Editing is mine.

To become a Catholic or an Orthodox nun one must be a Catholic or Orthodox. Neither the Catholic Church nor the Orthodox accept vows from persons who are not in full communion with the Apostolic succession.

It is true that there are many religious communities that were split during the Anglican schism. But those communities are not juridically related to one of the Apostolic Churches. That is one problem that ecumenism is trying to solve. You may want to contact the Franciscans of the Atonement. They came over from the Anglican communion and they are experts in these matters. This is their mission. They are an independent Catholic Franciscan Congregation whose mission is to deal with inter-faith issues. By independent I mean that they are not one of the Franciscan Orders founded by Francis and Clare. But they are Catholic and follow the spirit of Francis and Clare.

For example, the Rule of St. Francis, which the Poor Clares vow to obey, says that all are bound to obey the Pope, Brother Francis and Sister Clare and all of their canonically elected successors. The Anglicans have struggled with that part of the rule. The Anglicans are not in communion with the Pope or have Apostolic succession and their superiors are not valid successors of St. Francis and St. Clare, because they are not canonically elected.

As to the Benedictine monastery that you mentioned. I’m a Franciscan and can’t speak to that. I’m not sure what the oblation consists in.

The Carmelite, Dominican and Franciscan Secular Orders do make profession of consecrated life and one must be canonically in full communion with the Catholic Church to join. They must meet the same requirements in formation and communion with the Catholic Church as candidates for the friars or the nuns.

That being said, there are non Catholics who are associates in the Franciscan Order, but they may not be members until they become Catholic. They are welcome to participate in community activities and are certainly our brothers and sisters, but they are not Franciscans.

I do not know if the Carmelites and Dominicans have such a custom. I believe that Joysong is a Carmelite and ByzCath is a Carmelite Friar. They would know better. You may want to PM Deacon Ed B who is a CAF member and a Benedictine Oblate. He can tell you more about the requirements for oblation in the American Bendictine federation. Do contact the Franciscans of the Atonement.

Fraternally,

JR

Link to Franciscan Friars of the Atonement

atonementfriars.org/index.html

 

[Sharon_xx]

Dear AF - Just to confirm what the others have already said no, you don’t have to convert to CATHOLICISM to become a nun.

Every blessing

Pax

Sharon xx

Words missing!! Editing my own!!

The Anglican Poor Clare’s that I stayed with had a few Sisters from America amazingly bearing in mind I’m from the UK.

 

[Augustine]

I do not know if the Carmelites and Dominicans have such a custom.

Nope, the constitutions of the Discalced Carmelites are specific that one must be Catholic (further understood as a Catholic in good standing or a Catholic who may receive the Eucharist with a clear).

 

[DL82]

It is true that there are many religious communities that were split during the Anglican schism. But those communities are not juridically related to one of the Apostolic Churches. That is one problem that ecumenism is trying to solve. You may want to contact the Franciscans of the Atonement. They came over from the Anglican communion and they are experts in these matters. This is their mission. They are an independent Catholic Franciscan Congregation whose mission is to deal with inter-faith issues. By independent I mean that they are not one of the Franciscan Orders founded by Francis and Clare. But they are Catholic and follow the spirit of Francis and Clare.

For example, the Rule of St. Francis, which the Poor Clares vow to obey, says that all are bound to obey the Pope, Brother Francis and Sister Clare and all of their canonically elected successors. The Anglicans have struggled with that part of the rule. The Anglicans are not in communion with the Pope or have Apostolic succession and their superiors are not valid successors of St. Francis and St. Clare, because they are not canonically elected.

Just as an aside, the Anglican Franciscans, Benedictines and Dominicans were not separated during the Anglican schism. All the religious orders in England were dissolved, the monks either martyred or laicised. For the first 300 years the Anglican church was firmly protestant, and had no monks or nuns. It’s only with the Oxford Movement, which attempted to re-introduce Catholic practices and orders into the Church of England in the 19th century, that the Anglican orders began to exist, and they have always been in a creative tension, as they are trying to balance their more liberal Anglican traditions with the charisms of orders which have their origins in Catholicism.

There are other non-Catholic Christian monastic orders, such as Taize in France or the Iona Community in Scotland, which takes Christians of all ecclesial communities. Importantly though, even for these more liberal communities, they would still expect that you would join because you felt called to live that way FOR CHRIST, and not just because you wanted to live that way as a lifestyle choice.

All the same, sometimes some people begin by wanting to behave in the way of a particular religion, and because we are embodied creatures, that behaviour is the gateway to believing and belonging to the Church. For example, I met one novice with the Anglican Franciscans who had originally tested out a vocation to be a Buddhist monk but had left Buddhism and found his call in Christianity. It sounds like you are seeking something, and I would urge you to pray about what it is you are seeking in the life of a nun. I believe somewhere deep down, the thing that’s drawing you in may be the peace of Christ, whether or not you’re ready to acknowledge it.

 

[JReducation]

Just as an aside, the Anglican Franciscans, Benedictines and Dominicans were not separated during the Anglican schism. All the religious orders in England were dissolved, the monks either martyred or laicised. For the first 300 years the Anglican church was firmly protestant, and had no monks or nuns. It’s only with the Oxford Movement, which attempted to re-introduce Catholic practices and orders into the Church of England in the 19th century, that the Anglican orders began to exist, and they have always been in a creative tension, as they are trying to balance their more liberal Anglican traditions with the charisms of orders which have their origins in Catholicism.

There are other non-Catholic Christian monastic orders, such as Taize in France or the Iona Community in Scotland, which takes Christians of all ecclesial communities. Importantly though, even for these more liberal communities, they would still expect that you would join because you felt called to live that way FOR CHRIST, and not just because you wanted to live that way as a lifestyle choice.

All the same, sometimes some people begin by wanting to behave in the way of a particular religion, and because we are embodied creatures, that behaviour is the gateway to believing and belonging to the Church. For example, I met one novice with the Anglican Franciscans who had originally tested out a vocation to be a Buddhist monk but had left Buddhism and found his call in Christianity. It sounds like you are seeking something, and I would urge you to pray about what it is you are seeking in the life of a nun. I believe somewhere deep down, the thing that’s drawing you in may be the peace of Christ, whether or not you’re ready to acknowledge it.

I don’t know the Iona community, but the Brothers of Taize are far from liberal and they are approved by the Sacred Congregation for Religious and Secular Institutes.

The Anglican communities are not. That’s the problem. Without the approval of the Sacred Congregation, no religious institute can accept vows in the name of God and the Church. A religious community that cannot accept vows in the name of God and the Church is in a bind or the individual is in a bind, unless the individual is a member of that particular ecclesial community.

For example, crossovers are not allowed into Catholic religious and secular orders or secular and apostolic institutes unless the person is in full communion with the Catholic Church.

If you’re considering religious life and you’re Anglican, then the Anglican communities are appropriate for you. However, if you are Catholic or considering becoming Catholic, you have to join a community approved that is in full communion with the Church or is approved by the Church, at least approved by the local bishop.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yes, and I said that above somewhere. They are valid because the Orthodox Church has Apostolic Succession. Vows are received in the name of the Church and the Orthodox are valid Churches.

Fraternally,

JR

I see that you say this but then you say…

The Anglican communities are not. That’s the problem. Without the approval of the Sacred Congregation, no religious institute can accept vows in the name of God and the Church. A religious community that cannot accept vows in the name of God and the Church is in a bind or the individual is in a bind, unless the individual is a member of that particular ecclesial community.

The Orthodox do not have the approval of the Sacred Congregation.

 

[Soterion]

To the original poster,

As were certain other people, I too was stunned when I read over your question, though for different reasons than they were.
Unlike yourself, I was raised Catholic and have been confirmed as such. In my youth, I was involved with the Church and served as an alter boy. My dream was to become a Priest.
Unfortunately, by the time I was 15, I found myself questioning core tenets of the faith and gradually moved away from Christianity. I went through a brief ‘neo-pagan’ phase and then moved on to the teachings of the Golden Dawn and Aleister Crowley. Over the last five years or so, I’ve developed more of an interest in psychology and western philosophy along with a concurrent distaste for modern occultism…though I do still use the so-called “literal” Qabalah constantly in my studies.
My problem is that, somewhere between the Golden Dawn and Plato, I lost all faith in any sort of objective, external deity. I consider myself the world’s most reluctant atheist, though maybe that’s a bit too arrogant.
As my screen name suggests, I am seeking salvation. Salvation from existential meaninglessness. Despite my loss of faith, the desire to join the Priesthood, particularly through a Religious Order, has not left me.
What I’ve found is that when I mention this urge to fellow philosophy majors and others of a philosophical mindset, there is a perfect understanding there. On the other hand, when I mention this urge to Christians, pagans, or what have you, I tend to be greeted by confused stares and phrases such as, “you’re crazy”.

Well, maybe so. Yet, when you have a calling, you have a calling. To ignore it is suicide. Unlike yourself, I am not celibate. I was recently in a very intense relationship…one which probably would have ended in marriage. Having that option right in front of me - that option which so many single people dream of and idealize - was a very good thing for me. It confirmed for me that my path lies elsewhere. I ended the relationship.
I know that I’m talking more at you than to you, and just babbling on about my own biography, but I’m doing it for a reason. Well, two reasons:

1. If you genuinely have a calling to live the life you are asking about, then you should go for it, as I am. From my understanding, you are not going to be asked to make permanent vows right off the bat anyway, so there is no reason why you shouldn’t at least give it a shot and see how it goes.
2. You aren’t crazy, even if other people think you are. The reality is that the Church simply offers the best way for people such as you and I to live our lives.

Personally, I truly hope that by the time my formation is done, that I can honestly say, for the first time in a long time, “yes, I believe”. But even if that does not happen, I strongly suspect that I will know I’ve made the right choice in my life.
Here’s hoping you do the same.

~ Steve