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edwest211
Guest
On a Catholic forum, I should point out that all of creation was affected after The Fall. You don’t have to believe that but I have to say it.
Romans 8:21
New International Version
“that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.”
New Living Translation
“the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.”
English Standard Version
“that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”
Romans 8:21
New International Version
“that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.”
New Living Translation
“the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.”
English Standard Version
“that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.”
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buffalo
Guest
The Origin at 150: is a new evolutionary synthesis in sight?
The summary of the state of affairs on the 150th anniversary of the Origin is somewhat shocking: in the post-genomic era, all major tenets of the Modern Synthesis are, if not outright overturned, replaced by a new and incomparably more complex vision of the key aspects of evolution (Box 1). So, not to mince words, the Modern Synthesis is gone.
The summary of the state of affairs on the 150th anniversary of the Origin is somewhat shocking: in the post-genomic era, all major tenets of the Modern Synthesis are, if not outright overturned, replaced by a new and incomparably more complex vision of the key aspects of evolution (Box 1). So, not to mince words, the Modern Synthesis is gone.
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edwest211
Guest
That was very helpful. Thanks.
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J_the_Centrist
Guest
You should argue only with those fighting against Christianity. Just because one believes in evolution doesn’t mean we are denying God in any way whatsoever. Popes, Metropolitans, Pastors and so on that accept evolution as a science never deny God for the very reasons you stated, or that I stated yesterday.
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J_the_Centrist
Guest
I don’t think that anyone is denying this. I suggest you read the Wisdom of Solomon chapters 18-21 as they reference exactly what is supposed to have happened in evolution. It is absolutely amazing and I should’ve mentioned it yesterday. The question really isn’t how but Who and that is the most important point of all.
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mVitus
Guest
Thank for finally openly agreeing that Catholics may accept evolution as fact.
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edwest211
Guest
I understand you. What I do not understand is literally years of threads like this. Why? What is the point? I am not trying to pressure anyone to feel like they are less Catholic if they believe or that they shouldn’t, but why the intense focus on this?
Speaking personally, my long years of study of military history eventually led to a solid understanding of how psychological warfare works. I’m seeing all of the same elements here. I’m just being honest. I’m not trying to offend.
Speaking personally, my long years of study of military history eventually led to a solid understanding of how psychological warfare works. I’m seeing all of the same elements here. I’m just being honest. I’m not trying to offend.
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edwest211
Guest
“evolution as fact” What is so important about this that years have been spent discussing it here? I’m not agreeing with anything. No one needs my permission to believe what they want.
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J_the_Centrist
Guest
You likely already know why and it was more to do with our Sola Scriptura Evangelical brethren and their culture wars over the years that has made this debate so intense, even among non-Christians. Muslims and Jews are also embroiled in this debate now. The debate itself can be divisive by the very nature of evolutions claims.
Who said you were offending? I don’t think you were at all. You’re stating your opinion and so am I and that is how dialogue is supposed work. All I care about is whether or not evolution is used as a source of morality or presented as all that can be known about the natural world and I summarily reject both of those claims. God is all that matters and as scripture states, who is man that He should think of him. Who are we indeed and so the debate continues and will so as long as people walk the earth.
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Techno2000
Guest
Yeah… those wonderful and magical environmental pressures, too bad evolution is too slow to keep up with them.
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edwest211
Guest
Oh great. Here comes Part 17,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Ed
Ed
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edwest211
Guest
Yep. I wonder how many have yelled out: "Hey! Evolution! I need food now! And I need more fur! Now!!
And a few weeks later. Dead. Evolution is a secular miracle story that happens to work the right way every time. Even if it takes millions of years.
Ed
And a few weeks later. Dead. Evolution is a secular miracle story that happens to work the right way every time. Even if it takes millions of years.
Ed
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J_the_Centrist
Guest
I have to concur. Despite that this is such a hot topic I don’t understand it either, really I don’t. Other than the Evangelicals popularizing it I can’t think of why we at part trillion, or whatever number that is. 
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edwest211
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I guess I’ll never get an answer to that question. As more people stop believing in the theory, maybe the earth explodes. Or more likely, nothing.
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J_the_Centrist
Guest
If I have reason to dismiss it I would be more than happy to. In the face of global destruction though then I suppose we’d just have to evolve again. Sorry, I couldn’t resist that.
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J_the_Centrist
Guest
That was just a joke, no offense intended. Just a little levity, which never hurt anyone. 
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mVitus
Guest
^This. That is part of why the evolution debate is important to me. In this year’s iteration we’ve had people claiming evolution to be of the devil. That the Church’s openness to it is of the devil. While not all of the 6-day creationists have claimed this, the ones that have, some of them Catholics, those that have speak to me of that solar scriptural fundamentalism. I started earlier in this thread my severe distaste with fundamentalist “you MUST believe in a literal 6-day creation” ideology and how I believe it drives people away from faith. People who, had they not been taught falsehoods (the idea of absolute necessity for 6-day) may not have left. So when I see people speaking in the style of the fundamentalists and saying things like “evolution denies God” it makes me want to correct.
Now let me restate that I would also be loathe of someone to false state you cannot believe in a literal 6-day. But with that said, a part of me does want to correct in terms of facts, much as I would if someone said the moon is made of cheese, and that’s why I got involved with one of this thread’s iterations initially. But as time goes on that reason has waned in its importance to me in this thread in favor of the first.
And with the environmental pressures,when they occur slowly, natural selection can occur, as evidenced by the fossil record over many many many environmental changes. And while I haven’t looked this next statement up, I would hazard a guess that evolution probably occurred at a quicker pace in the pass. That guess is based on how radiation can cause random mutations and given radiation decays, I’d imagine the earth was more radioactive in the past. Adding that together to get more mutations for more chances of a neutral/beneficial (alibi also an increased rate of detrimental).
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edwest211
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Radioactivity is a tricky thing. Above the level of background radiation, there is a limit as to how much radiation humans and insects can handle without developing radiation sickness. Many years ago, fruit flies were exposed to radiation, but remained fruit flies. Some of their genetic material was altered but, as I recall, they would not have survived in the wild.
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J_the_Centrist
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I prefer speciation, which suggests that before any major evolutionary event(s) can take place there must be an extinction event where new populations can exploit new environs and adapt to them. An example of this can be the event that removed dinosaurs from the fossil record and allowed humans to eventually exist or the other five major extinction events in the fossil record prior to that. Mutations, particularly after these cataclysmic events may or may not be possible. They may and very likely did remove more life than add to it but I see the point you’re making.
I am more interested in history personally and Ancient Rome in particular and that is what I studied. One of the reasons I study science whenever possible is because of the reasons you mentioned. This biblical literalism and the legalism behind it makes me feel all too uncomfortable. Some of these people even attack Easter and Christmas. They are basing their Christianity on something completely unhistorical and within their own minds.
Personally, I don’t care if a person believes in evolution or not but please I ask that they don’t do a few things along with our atheist friends. Don’t turn it into a means of acquiring morality. Don’t make it the only answer because it isn’t. Don’t use it to attack God because this is simply foolish as God is beyond the bounds of a nature He created. Don’t call it the devil because this is foolish. Don’t say that it claims there is no God because it does no such thing, nor does it have the scope to do so. Don’t use the Bible to contradict it because Sacred Scripture is better used as a book of faith and morals and it doesn’t address these issues anyway on how the earth was made and there are two Creation accounts in Genesis. I think that’s all I can hope for but I’ll be disappointed that’s for sure. The Sola Scriptura stuff is a huge problem for all Christians, particularly our Evangelical brethren that are being the most deprived by it.
I am more interested in history personally and Ancient Rome in particular and that is what I studied. One of the reasons I study science whenever possible is because of the reasons you mentioned. This biblical literalism and the legalism behind it makes me feel all too uncomfortable. Some of these people even attack Easter and Christmas. They are basing their Christianity on something completely unhistorical and within their own minds.
Personally, I don’t care if a person believes in evolution or not but please I ask that they don’t do a few things along with our atheist friends. Don’t turn it into a means of acquiring morality. Don’t make it the only answer because it isn’t. Don’t use it to attack God because this is simply foolish as God is beyond the bounds of a nature He created. Don’t call it the devil because this is foolish. Don’t say that it claims there is no God because it does no such thing, nor does it have the scope to do so. Don’t use the Bible to contradict it because Sacred Scripture is better used as a book of faith and morals and it doesn’t address these issues anyway on how the earth was made and there are two Creation accounts in Genesis. I think that’s all I can hope for but I’ll be disappointed that’s for sure. The Sola Scriptura stuff is a huge problem for all Christians, particularly our Evangelical brethren that are being the most deprived by it.
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