Is Darwin's Theory of Evolution True? Part 4.0

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I love the way evolutionists can determine what an entire creature looked like from a tiny fragment of bone or a tooth. Their imaginations are superhuman! But it is their obvious devotion to strict scientific rigour that I admire most about these charlatans and dreamers.
 
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In the journey from a single cell to a man, there must have been many false starts and poor choices.

Where are they?

The picture you paint portrays all the good choices staying and all the bad being gone in a couple of generations.

Even if if this were the case, where are all the mistakes?
Yes, and what about all the intermediate or transitional forms from one species to another? Included in the transitional forms, I think would be some very weird or monster like creatures, such as half giraffe and half cow for instance. The fact is the fossil record paints a very different picture from the one that would be expected if evolution were true but it is consistent with progressive creationism and Genesis 1. Two factors run consistently throughout the fossil record, namely, the abrupt appearance of many different groups of complete and fully formed organisms (plants and animals) and stasis. There is a complete absence of so-called transitional or intermediate forms (forms we would expect if evolution happened) among the billions of fossils except for a few disputed and inconclusive fossils or species the evolutionists like to bring forward in support of their theory.

It appears the fossil record alone should lay to rest any further discussion of evolutionism at least of the macro variety unless substantial evidence, if there is any, is uncovered from the earth which til this day the rocks have not produced. Otherwise, I think we might be just talking in circles.
 
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The exodus story was not written by eye witness accounts.
It wasn’t? And you have proof of this yes? You ever here of Moses? You know the main character of the exodus story? Yeah, Moses wrote the Book of Exodus and the rest of the Pentateuch, what the Israelites called the Law. He even says so right there in the Pentateuch. God commanded Moses to put the Law down in writing and Moses recorded all the places them encamped throughout their 40 year journey in the wilderness. Yes, I know about the Documentary Hypothesis and the supposed JEPD sources that have never been found, another theory without evidence and I don’t buy it.
 
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I don’t have a problem with that.
My point was to the other poster, which I think even you would agree.
My point was that the evidence for the Gospels is much stronger than the evidence for book of Exodus. That’s all. For starters The book of exodus itself does not claim it was an eyewitness account but the Gospel does.

But perhaps I should have said, some would questioned that exodus was not an eyewitness account. But not even unbelievers would questioned that the gospels were not an eyewitness or close to eyewitness account. (Ie no one is suggesting they were written centuries later)
 
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Only a few?
Only a very small proportion of animals ever get fossilised. There are whole phyla with no fossil record at all.
Perhaps you do not understand the immense amount of time and the sheer number of generations.

Shouldn’t there be examples of mistakes everywhere?
What do you mean by “mistake”? Were Trilobites a mistake? They were very successful for a very long time and we have a great many fossils of Trilobites. They eventually went extinct; does that make them a “mistake”?

Perhaps you do not understand natural selection. The more obvious ‘mistakes’ are reduced by natural selection while the correct versions are increased by natural selection. Hence their fossils are rare.
Why only examples of the right mutation but none of the wrong?
Because natural selection increases the proportion of the “right” mutation and reduces the proportion of the “wrong”. If your Cytochrome C gene has a bad mutation, then you will not survive past a few days after fertilization and will have no chance at all of becoming a fossil.

rossum
 
How the posts pour in while I’m asleep!

Ratio1:
If during his lifetime, Jesus miraculously demonstrated, publicly and to thousands of people, that he was able to produce unlimited food from nothing, then it is strange that a year or so later not a single one of them defended his execution as a common criminal apart from a few friends. If this was a miracle, it didn’t create much permanent faith among its witnesses.

If, after his death, Jesus ‘got better’ and continued his teaching career, or stayed dead but simply disappeared, then it is strange that hundreds of years later, thousands of people were prepared to die in his defence. If this was not a miracle, then surely its long term effect certainly was.

Miracles are interesting concepts, and much thought has been given to them. Glark, who equates his personal conviction with Catholic dogma, declares infallibly that miracles are by definition irrational, but I disagree with him. I don’t think my views are contrary to Catholic teaching, but I don’t want to explore them further here, which will simply distract from the main topic, but might leave the sub-subject with the observation that although miracles are actual events to the people who witness them, they are accounts of events to the much greater number of people who don’t, and so the effect of the account, in terms of the strengthening of faith, can be much greater that the effect of the event.

The theology of evolution revolves around the rationality of God, and whether he interferes with it. When Pope Benedict gave his celebrated speech at Regensburg University he was at pains to point out that Catholicism is founded in rationality. He was amused to quote (ironically, of course) that “there was something odd about our university: it had two faculties devoted to something that did not exist: God.” He went on to expound on the idea that: “The decisive statement […] is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God’s nature.” The subject is capable of discussion, and is certainly not black and white. I am comfortable with the idea that certain things have occurred which I cannot explain rationally, but that do have rational explanations.

Your response to my “rule of thumb” was, I thought, weak. Try not to use the word “proof” in scientific contexts. Science doesn’t do ‘proof’. It doesn’t, sensu stricto, begin with assumptions; it begins with observations. Evolution does not “start with a false premise”; it does not start with any premise at all, true or false. It starts with observations, and attempts to link them rationally. In so far as those attempts appear, to the ‘scientific community’, to be coherent, then we call it science. Science is not a dogma, or a proof, or even fact; it is a set of coherent explanations which fit observations. It has only one axiom, which is held as strongly by atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Catholics and Jedi Knights, namely: “not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God’s nature”.
 
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Is hard to reason with a someone whose aptitude for honesty is as questionable as their aptitude for science and theology … or someone who runs away when their idiotic claims are challenged. Some people are just pretentious and “full of it” to bother with.
The swiftest solution is to conclude the discussion and move on. I did. I thought may be it was just me, but now I see others having the same taste in the mouth as I did.
 
Glark:
Your increasingly intemperate remarks are getting wearisome. If your arguments have strength, they do not need unpleasantness to support them, so why use it? People clinging to arguments they know lack coherence, support or intelligibility often resort to sarcastic one-liners, personal abuse and deliberate obfuscation as a kind of smoke-screen to hide the weakness of their position. You cannot be upset if, by using such strategies yourself, your own arguments, even if sound, are perceived as unstable by those who read your posts. What is unfortunate is firstly that others holding similar views, with sensible arguments to support them, will find their positions seriously weakened by association, and secondly, that by behaving as you do, you are actively proselytising for the credibility of evolution.

For what its worth,
  1. Yes, humans and pineapples certainly and apparently share a common ancestor.
  2. I continue to think that your selection of a quote from an evolutionist to support a creationist view was indeed a cynical attempt to show that evolutionists secretly do not believe in evolution. Please refrain.
  3. “Historical fact” and “Myth” are not dichotomous, so to demand a choice between them is unreasonable. Most, perhaps all, myths are attempts to recall or explain historical or observed facts. I don’t know enough about the book of Exodus to distinguish.
  4. I believe in all the Biblical miracles, but none, I suspect, in the same way as you.
  5. The sneaky association of “Myths” with “Lies” is deliberately dishonest. Please refrain.
  6. “With God all things are possible” - Fact.
  7. “It’s a strange fact of life that the most intelligent poeple can also be the silliest and least wise.” At least I can spell “people”.
  8. The late Paula Haigh, bless her, was not a theologian of any kind, by education, qualification, or experience. She was a librarian, and a staunch denier of the heliocentric solar system instead of the old Ptolemaic one. She earnestly and publicly sought support from theologians, but failed.
  9. I believe everything I say is either supported by, or at least not incompatible with, the orthodox teaching of the Catholic Church.
  10. By claiming that various popes are “barking up the wrong tree”, you (unwittingly no doubt) imply a contempt for the Catholic Church to which you profess adherence. True, their personal teaching is not infallible, but as the elected leaders of that church, under the influence of God, I don’t think they should be dismissed so cavalierly.
  11. “According to fellow Catholc, Hugh F., God’s book is full of silly childish myths.” You know this isn’t true. You are being deliberately dishonest. Please refrain.
 
Because natural selection increases the proportion of the “right” mutation and reduces the proportion of the “wrong”.
But won’t you have many “wrongs” before you arrive at the “right” mutation? I’d expect high body count before achieving the correct mutation. We are missing the high body count thus rendering current theories suspect. Nature in itself will just churn out mutations lethal, neutral and beneficial without preference. Unless the beneficial mutation gets fixed in the population, nature will just regress towards its norm leaving high body counts as evidence. But the stats are just not there. We should also see substantial evidence of the various stages of evolving from A to B which we are not. In nature it is unlikely for B to replace completely all the transitional stages of specimens even when B is already attained. So even when homo sapiens became dominant, we should continue to see some surviving variants of pre-homo sapiens. We don’t . And given the geographical dispersion of the precursor of homo sapiens, we should see such variants profusely. It takes many many generations for a complete extinction of the pre-homo sapiens and therefore we should see coexistence with the homo sapiens for a period of time. We should see co-mingling of bones.
 
As I see it, what is called evolution was spitting out organisms at a relatively rapid rate - as we are told - and it seems we should have a pile of bones that represent those mistakes. Gross errors in body construction and the absence of features necessary for survival.
Yeah… we should see generations of the so-called die out transitional stages for every creature on the planet .
 
But won’t you have many “wrongs” before you arrive at the “right” mutation?
The majority of mutations are neutral, neither right nor wrong. Of the non-neutral mutations, most are indeed deleterious.
I’d expect high body count before achieving the correct mutation. We are missing the high body count thus rendering current theories suspect.
There is a high body count. Between 10% and 30% of fertilized zygotes fail to develop and result in a miscarriage. Others develop further, but result in a stillbirth. Many of those failed developments are due to genetic defects in the zygote/embryo. That is one of the ways that natural selection removes ‘incorrect’ mutations from the gene pool.
Nature in itself will just churn out mutations lethal, neutral and beneficial without preference. Unless the beneficial mutation gets fixed in the population, nature will just regress towards its norm leaving high body counts as evidence.
Nature includes natural selection. Natural selection preferentially spreads the beneficial mutations through the population and preferentially reduces the deleterious mutations: “If your parents didn’t have any children then the chances are you won’t have any either.”
But the stats are just not there. We should also see substantial evidence of the various stages of evolving from A to B which we are not.
We are seeing the evidence. We have fossil evidence and genetic evidence. Do not trust creationist and ID websites, they lie by omission.
In nature it is unlikely for B to replace completely all the transitional stages of specimens even when B is already attained. So even when homo sapiens became dominant, we should continue to see some surviving variants of pre-homo sapiens. We don’t.
We overlapped with earlier members of Homo: Neanderthals, Denisovans and perhaps Floresiensis. Some people today have DNA from Neanderthals (most Europeans do) and from Denisovans. Linnaeus originally classified Chimpanzees as members of genus Homo, though that was later changed.
And given the geographical dispersion of the precursor of homo sapiens, we should see such variants profusely. It takes many many generations for a complete extinction of the pre-homo sapiens and therefore we should see coexistence with the homo sapiens for a period of time. We should see co-mingling of bones.
We do. There are caves with both H. sapiens and H. neanderthalensis bones present, though IIRC the two species were in different layers as different groups moved in and out of the caves. As I previously mentioned, the presence of a little Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA in some modern humans confirms that the species overlapped and interacted. Dating the remains shows that H. sapiens and H. neanderthalensis overlapped in Europe by over 5,000 years. I do not have dates for the overlap in Asia where some Neanderthals also lived.

rossum
 
Yeah… we should see generations of the so-called die out transitional stages for every creature on the planet .
Absolutely. After the single pair of each Biblical ‘kind’ left the Ark we need to see all the transitionals between that original pair and every species alive today. And the remains have to be dated at less than about 4,500 years old.

Better get looking. 😀

rossum
 
It has the advantage of tying everything together in a way which allows for further study and insight. Does ID actually add anything to our understanding of anything?

Nope.
 
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Glark:
Denying the miracles described in Scripture is very typical of someone who is losing their faith.
I don’t think he has any in the first place, the Christian type I mean.
If you don’t believe in the supernatural ,the devil has got you right where he wants you.
 
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Techno2000:
Yeah… we should see generations of the so-called die out transitional stages for every creature on the planet .
Absolutely. After the single pair of each Biblical ‘kind’ left the Ark we need to see all the transitionals between that original pair and every species alive today. And the remains have to be dated at less than about 4,500 years old.

Better get looking. 😀

rossum
Lol… you had a 4 billion year head start where are your transitional fossils? 🤔
 
Because natural selection increases the proportion of the “right” mutation and reduces the proportion of the “wrong”
Billions of years.
Countless life forms.
Where are the mistakes?

If random mutation is going on, then chances are pretty high that we will find errors.

Where are they?
 
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