Is Depression a Sin?

[SeekerJen]

Mandi:

In other words if you are looking to man for the cures of what ails you than you do not possess supernatural faith. It is also interesting to note here that if you want to also compare this to physical health - there are many, many Saints who refused to seek medical attention - because they possessed supernatural faith and wanted to suffer for their eternal reward. Their desire was not earth bound but heaven.

So…you wouldn’t seek medical treatment for cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc.? Never pop an aspirin for a migraine, or Rolaids for a case of heartburn? How 'bout penicillin if you had a bacterial infection that could go into the bloodstream and kill you if not treated? Or a Tylenol for a child with a high fever that if not brought down could cause brain damage?

Gosh. As a scientist in the field of medical research, I assumed God put us here to find treatments for diseases because He wants us to use the brains He gave us and the resources He provided on this good earth. I’m not disputing that the pharmaceutical companies are on overload: do we really need more prescription drugs for indigestion or Type 2 diabetes, as evidenced by the drug commercials (always followed up by ads for the latest greasy, fatty treat or sugary soda)? But legitimate medical treatment for a serious condition or an occasional aspirin for a headache doesn’t seem at all unreasonable.

Hmm. Now I’m thinking about all the pioneering Catholic hospitals that have managed to save so many lives. I wonder what God thinks of them.

 

[Mandi]

SeekerJen:

So…you wouldn’t seek medical treatment for cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc.? Never pop an aspirin for a migraine, or Rolaids for a case of heartburn? How 'bout penicillin if you had a bacterial infection that could go into the bloodstream and kill you if not treated? Or a Tylenol for a child with a high fever that if not brought down could cause brain damage?

I am not a Saint! I would never presume to put myself in their category!

Gosh. As a scientist in the field of medical research, I assumed God put us here to find treatments for diseases because He wants us to use the brains He gave us and the resources He provided on this good earth.

Faith and Science
Although reson cannot comprehend everything faith believe faith never contradicts reason. Neither does faith contradict science, for a science is a branch of human knowledge which has been investigated and systematized by human reason. True science and true faith are never opposed to one another, for although science studies human and material things, while faith is concerned with what is divine and spiritual, they are both rooted in God.

But legitimate medical treatment for a serious condition or an occasional aspirin for a headache doesn’t seem at all unreasonable.

Doesn’t seem unreasonable to me either, than again suffering is not an easy thing to do - I am quite sure there are very few St. Bernadettes amoung us!

Hmm. Now I’m thinking about all the pioneering Catholic hospitals that have managed to save so many lives. I wonder what God thinks of them.

God is not interested in saving lives ---- He is interested in saving souls. This is what I am talking about “Supernatural Faith” We are not here to concern ourselves with “the qualitiy of life” We are here to save our immortal soul!

Are we of this world or are we for the next!

 

[Charlemagne]

I believe that there is so much depression in the world today because people turn everywhere but to God to look for happiness and “fulfillment”. There really is something to the saying “slow down and smell the roses”, especially when the “Rose” is God. Having said that, I think depression is a real illness. I think true depression occurs at a much lower rate than what we see in the world today. If we continue to rely on secular, atheistic psychologists and psychiatrists, that won’t change anytime soon. If you do go to one of these doctors, you should ask what they think about religion in general and Catholicism in particular. The whole idea of building ones “self esteem” denies Original Sin and denies that man has the capacity to sin. It says “if it feels good, do it.” Materialism and the quest for happiness on Earth spring from these beliefs. Depression results when people chase these things, and suddenly come to realize that they don’t lead to happiness and fulfillment. Then they ask “what else is there?” Often, since they’ve rejected God, they believe nothing remains for them.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

NM2:

And taking an SSRI or other anti-depressant to try to resolve the chemical imbalance in one’s brain is no different from a diabetic taking insulin to try to resolve the chemical imbalance in his blood.

EXACTLY correct!!!

 

[Mandi]

darcee:

No one in their right mine would so arrogant and self righteous as to claim that anyone who is on medication for depression must lack faith in God.

Natural Faith

If we believe something because of the word of a human being, we have natural faith. for example, we accept the verdict of a doctor when he diagnoses a case, or we believe a scientest who says the earth is round, or that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away. We believe a historian when he tells us that Caesar lived two thousand years ago. We believe a friend when he tells us he will help us. All this based on natural faith.

The Virtues of Supernatural Faith

True faith is firm: Real faith is as firm and sturdy as bed-rock. It never doubts, even if a thousand difficulties assail it. Firm and unsaken faith is a consequence of our motive or reason for faith —the authority of God, who is eternal and infallible Truth. He has spoken, and therefore, we believe with an absolute certainty everything He has revealed.

True faith is constant: True faith is constant as well as firm. In times of prosperity as well as in times of trial or difficulty, real faith abides. It remains throught life: childhood, youth, maturity, and old age. Constant faith is steadfast in the face of ridicule, torment, and even death itself. It was such persevering constancy that won for the martyrs their glorious crowns.

True faith is universal. Further, true faith is universal or all embracing. It accepts all the truths revealed by God and taught by His Church. We may not except or omit a single one. If we"pick and choose" among God’s truths, we prove that we are not believing on the authority of God, but relying on our own human judgment. This would not be the supernatural virtue of faith. Either we believe everything god wishes us to believe, or we do not possess the virtue of faith.

True faith is living. Finally, true faith is living; that is if it is accompanied by sanctifying grace. If a person is in the state of mortal sin he may still have faith, but it is dead. Mortal sin drives sanctifying grace and charity from the soul, but it does not expel faith unless the sin is one directly opposed to faith, such as heresy. Dead faith, however, can produce no fruit for eternity. It is as useless as a body with a soul.

In order that our faith be firm, constant, universal, and living we ought often to repeat, fervently and deliberately, the Act of Faith.

At the risk of sounding rude, ignorant and self rightous this board is full of “love of God” but at the very least 75% of it is totally surfuce and lacks any depth what so ever. And instead of being outraged at my “holier than thou” attitude - for the benefit of each and every soul I strongly encourage that some deep self reflection is in order - How strong is my faith? - Because if it is the supernatural faith I am required to have - it is NOT coming across on this board. (This is not directed at darcee but to people in general)

That others may be chosen and I set aside, Jesus grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may be preferred to me in everything, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.
That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should, Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

 

[baltobetsy]

Natural Faith

If we believe something because of the word of a human being, we have natural faith. for example, we accept the verdict of a doctor when he diagnoses a case, or we believe a scientest who says the earth is round, or that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away. We believe a historian when he tells us that Caesar lived two thousand years ago. We believe a friend when he tells us he will help us. All this based on natural faith.

Are you saying that natural faith is opposed to supernatural faith? I don’t think this is a reasonable assumption. There’s a time and place for natural faith and a time and place for supernatural faith.

Mandi:

At the risk of sounding rude, ignorant and self rightous this board is full of “love of God” but at the very least 75% of it is totally surfuce and lacks any depth what so ever. And instead of being outraged at my “holier than thou” attitude - for the benefit of each and every soul I strongly encourage that some deep self reflection is in order - How strong is my faith? - Because if it is the supernatural faith I am required to have - it is NOT coming across on this board. (This is not directed at darcee but to people in general)

As one of the “people in general,” I can only say, “How dare you?” The way to win souls for God is not to accuse and criticize. It is to show forth His love in your words and actions. To put it in a “natural” sort of way - You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. To put it in a “supernatural” way - Treat others as you would have them treat you.

And, Mandi, do you have a spiritual director? If not, I recommend getting one. It’s extremely helpful to have someone help you apply the teachings of the Church to real life. There’s nothing like obedience to increase one’s humility, and I see that you like to pray the Litany of Humility very much.

Betsy

 

[darcee]

Mandi.

Not to sound harsh but, I think you need some help.
I think you honestly misunderstand faith. You read all the words take the ones you like ignore the rest and then pronounce your own judgement to be the will of God. At the very least you misunderstand what is required of Catholics in general and Saints in particular.

Many of us have been given trials, physical trials or mental trials. Some of these are trials meant to show the glory of God in his ability to heal others are meant to give the sufferer humility in some other way, to teach a lesson or to be born heroically. YOU are not the one who gets to decide if a person should lay their trial to God’s feet and suffer redemptively with Christ or if they should humble themselves and seek out the help of their fellow men. Which can be VERY difficult for a person of faith to do. It can be VERY hard to stop and say… “yes, God is asking for my humility here”.

Take for instance the fact that after almost 11 years with no medication I am now actively seeking a pharmaceutical option for my autistic daughter. Is this a lack of faith in God? No, this is me having to be humble enough to go ask another person to help me because things are getting beyond my ability to cope with and God knows I need to learn to reach out beyond myself. Not that I don’t honestly believe that God is in the picture but because I, in prayer, realized that God needs me to do something here… I need to stop thinking that I can pray hard enough or fast long enough or believe hard enough and she will be fixed. I need to drop my pious arrogance and realize that sometimes… most times… God’s hands are US. We serve one another as the body of Christ and that sometimes that means medical help TOO.

Yes, some Saints did turn over their physical suffering to God… but God is also a God of healing and it is up to each individual to discern if God wants their suffering or wants them to seek out medical help and take from that help other lessons that they will use to go on and better serve Him.

Your one size fits all version of the truth seems to be the really shallow thing in this dicussion, not the faith of those here.

-D

 

[loyola_rambler]

Mandi, the two most glaring contradictions between your posts and reality are that: 1. You say the Church is not made for theologians, yet you only quote theologians and dismiss the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the official documents of the Vatican on this issue, and 2. you not only quote Alphonsus and use one of his isolated sermons to support your theory, but you fail to acknowledge and admit that he himself suffered from depression and sought treatment from physicians…yet you would claim anyone doing so does not possess sufficient faith in God…a conclusion you draw from Alphonsus’ sermon and in spite of his own maladies…and then claim that many saints have suffered from depression…yet that’s something you claim is a sign of poor faith.

Tha’ts the worst of bad circular logic. Read more on the topic before claiming it’s God who wants depressed people to turn to Him at the exclusion of all others. God wants people to be happy, healthy and well-adjusted. If we can find that help through doctors (whose gifts humbly come from God, thank you), then your point is moot. Most importantly, you’re contradicting the Magisterium. Is that really a good, orthodox Catholic position?

 

[loyola_rambler]

Mandi:

I’m sorry I thought the quote was self explanitory!

I do not recommend anyone on medication to stop taking thier pills and find God because they simply do not possess what is needed and that is “supernatural faith” we define "supernatural faith as a theological virtue, a free gift of God, consisting in an infused supernatural habit or permanent capacity for believing, by which man is disposed to accept as true everything God has revealed solely because of the authority and truthfulness of God who reveals it. In addition to natural habits or virtues, there are the supernatural virtues which enable us to act in a supernatural manner. Acts done through their motivation are supernatural acts.

In other words if you are looking to man for the cures of what ails you than you do not possess supernatural faith. It is also interesting to note here that if you want to also compare this to physical health - there are many, many Saints who refused to seek medical attention - because they possessed supernatural faith and wanted to suffer for their eternal reward. Their desire was not earth bound but heaven.

To believe “supernatural faith” is the cure, is to deny that healing is a gift that comes from God through man. Better said, isn’t it odd that one of the Gospels was written by a physician? Or that when the Pope was shot, he was taken to a hospital for blood transfusions, surgical intervention and extensive medical care…including medications…instead of being taken to the nearest church (which was right around the corner) for a good old-fashioned prayer service?

Reality check. God heals…through men and women. If you’re believing that only prayer is needed for healing, then you need to convert to Christian Science. We Catholics are deeply rooted in the medical field and run some of the major hospitals in the world. We believe in physicians, medications, surgery, and even (gasp) psychiatry to heal both the human body and the human spirit. As the Vatican document notes above, the body and the spirit are inseparable and the Vatican calls upon the health professionals of the world to threat both.

 

[Mandi]

loyola rambler:

1. you not only quote Alphonsus and use one of his isolated sermons to support your theory, but you fail to acknowledge and admit that he himself suffered from depression and sought treatment from physicians…yet you would claim anyone doing so does not possess sufficient faith in God…a conclusion you draw from Alphonsus’ sermon and in spite of his own maladies…and then claim that many saints have suffered from depression…yet that’s something you claim is a sign of poor faith.

Either I’m not clear or you do not understand! So I will take it that I am not clear.

First of all I can only take your word for it that Alphonsus suffered from depression because I have not read anywhere that he did or exactly what treatment he sought but the one thing I am sure of if he sought treatment the prescription was not anti-depressants.

Secondly depression is not a sign of poor faith - Faith is the remedie for depression

Thirdly (and this is the point that has somehow gotten lost) Despair is a sin against the Holy Ghost - what does this mean… we are NOT ALLOWED to wallow in depression … which means if you fall easily towards depression - (which by the way is the tendency for those with a melancholie temperment) Then you must not remain there. The Saints, and the more I think about it the more I believe that more saints than not, suffered from depression - because saints are usually very scrupulous - they never believe they are “holy enough” infact it is common for them to believe they are nothing but the most wretched sinner that walked the face of the earth. Now thats gotta be some depressing to constantly think that. But what makes saints, saints is that with total confidence they give themselves to God.

God who wants depressed people to turn to Him at the exclusion of all others.

God wants EVERYBODY to turn to Him at the exclusion of all others.

God wants people to be happy, healthy and well-adjusted.

God wants people to love Him above all things and be happy with Him forever in heaven… We were not made for this world!

If you would like to view some different Catholic thoughts on Depression I recommend you go to this Board to read what others have to say
catholic-dispatch.com/cathnow/index.php?topic=20.0

 

[Mandi]

baltobetsy:

Are you saying that natural faith is opposed to supernatural faith? I don’t think this is a reasonable assumption. There’s a time and place for natural faith and a time and place for supernatural faith.

Natural Faith and Supernatural Faith are not opposed to one another they are two different things. What I am telling you is from
From The Following of Christ
“He is a vain man that putteth his hope in man, or in things created. Trust not in thine own knowledge, nor in the cunning of any man living, but rather in the grace of God, who helpeth the humble and humbleth them that presume upon themselves”

A smart man puts hes faith in God alone!

As one of the “people in general,” I can only say, “How dare you?”

This is Unlimited Confidence

Blind trust in God’s mercy, unlimited confidence in His love, is one of the secrets to obtain sanctity. The Holy fathers have always taught that the measure of our hope and confidence is the measure of the graces which we receive from heaven. They have realized that, through our unreserved confidence, God is most honored and glorified. Nothing will be denied to an unlimited confidence. Our Lord revealed: “It is impossible that anyone should not receive all that he has believed and hoped to obtain. it gives Me real pleasure when men hope great things from Me and I will always grant them more than they expect.”

“O Jesus, what should I add to these prayers to make them yet more efficacious?” St. Gertrude once asked. Turning to her with a countenance full of sweetness, Our Savior replied, Confidence alone easily obtains all things!..Once when St. Gertrude was troubled with temptations, she implored the Divine assistance. Our Lord, in His exceeding mercy, spoke thus to her: “Anyone suffering from human temptations, who flees to My protection with firm confidence, belongs to those of whom I can say: ‘One is My dove, My chosen one out of thousands, who has pierced My Heart with one glance of her eyes.’ And this confidence wounds My Heart so deeply that were I unable to relieve such a soul, it would cause My Heart a sadness which all the joys of heaven could not assuage… The confidence that I truly have the power, the wisdom and the goodness to aid a soul faithfully in all her miseries, is the arrow which pierches My heart, and does such violence to My love that I can never abandon her.”

There’s nothing like obedience to increase one’s humility, and I see that you like to pray the Litany of Humility very much.

So very true, it is absolutely one of my favourites!

 

[felra]

Mandi:

The Virtues of Supernatural Faith

True faith is firm: Real faith is as firm and sturdy as bed-rock. It never doubts, even if a thousand difficulties assail it. Firm and unsaken faith is a consequence of our motive or reason for faith —the authority of God, who is eternal and infallible Truth. He has spoken, and therefore, we believe with an absolute certainty everything He has revealed.

True faith is constant: True faith is constant as well as firm. In times of prosperity as well as in times of trial or difficulty, real faith abides. It remains throught life: childhood, youth, maturity, and old age. Constant faith is steadfast in the face of ridicule, torment, and even death itself. It was such persevering constancy that won for the martyrs their glorious crowns.

True faith is universal. Further, true faith is universal or all embracing. It accepts all the truths revealed by God and taught by His Church. We may not except or omit a single one. If we"pick and choose" among God’s truths, we prove that we are not believing on the authority of God, but relying on our own human judgment. This would not be the supernatural virtue of faith. Either we believe everything god wishes us to believe, or we do not possess the virtue of faith.

True faith is living. Finally, true faith is living; that is if it is accompanied by sanctifying grace. If a person is in the state of mortal sin he may still have faith, but it is dead. Mortal sin drives sanctifying grace and charity from the soul, but it does not expel faith unless the sin is one directly opposed to faith, such as heresy. Dead faith, however, can produce no fruit for eternity. It is as useless as a body with a soul.

In order that our faith be firm, constant, universal, and living we ought often to repeat, fervently and deliberately, the Act of Faith.

At the risk of sounding rude, ignorant and self rightous this board is full of “love of God” but at the very least 75% of it is totally surfuce and lacks any depth what so ever. And instead of being outraged at my “holier than thou” attitude - for the benefit of each and every soul I strongly encourage that some deep self reflection is in order - How strong is my faith? - Because if it is the supernatural faith I am required to have - it is NOT coming across on this board.

Mandi,

You certainly do not leave much room or offer any remedy using your scheme for those folks (myslef included) who reside somewhere between the “supernatural” and “dead” faith. In your either/or, all/nothing, polaristic depiction of faith, what would you have us/me do in your scheme of salvation? Do we/I simply offer up our suffering and affliction until we become infused with the “supernatural” and then register as a true/real faith believer? Sounds cold and lacking in God’s compassion for those of us still growing in our ability to open up to and receive the fullness of the faith that God wants to give me/us. . Please take a moment to clarify how I may have misread your elitist sounding version of living and saving faith.

Felra

 

[Mandi]

felra:

Mandi,

You certainly do not leave much room or offer any remedy using your scheme for those folks (myslef included) who reside somewhere between the “supernatural” and “dead” faith. In your either/or, all/nothing, polaristic depiction of faith, what would you have us/me do in your scheme of salvation?

Sorry to mislead you to the fact that that is my definition of faith - it is not - It comes from a Grade nine religion book called Our Quest for Happiness.

Do we/I simply offer up our suffering and affliction until we become infused with the “supernatural” and then register as a true/real faith believer? Sounds cold and lacking in God’s compassion for those of us still growing in our ability to open up to and receive the fullness of the faith that God wants to give me/us.

Supeprnatural Faith

The faith we are talking about, however, is far superior to merely natural faith. When we consider faith as the master guide to our goal, we have reference not to human, natural faith, but to divine, supernatural faith. Supernatural faith, from one point of view, is an act of the intellect under the dominion of the will, by which, with the help of grace, we assent with complete certainty to the truths God as revealed. From another point of view it is a supernatural habit, enabling these supernatural acts.

In this latter sense we can define supernatural faith as a theological virtue, a free gift of God, consisting in an infused supernatural habit or permanent capacity for believing, by which man is disposed to accept as true everything God has revealed solely because of the authority and truthfulness of God who reveals it.

To change this capacity into a facility or ease in our daily actions, we must make repeated acts of faith until, with the assistance of the infused virtue, we develop the acquired habits of a life of faith. special attention is drawn to the fact, therefore, that faith is both a supernatural virtue, or habit infused into the soul at Baptism, and also a set of acquired habits wihci are developed by repeated acts springing from the infused virtue. It is not enough that we were baptized and are in the state of grace. With the assistance of actual grace we must exercise ourselves in acts and practices of faith so that the supernatural capacity given us by the infused virtue produces all of its wonderful effects in our daily lives.

This once again is from the same book.

My words would pale in comparison

Offering up suffering and afflictions is what makes us holy … easier said than done but true!

 

[felra]

Mandi:

Sorry to mislead you to the fact that that is my definition of faith - it is not - It comes from a Grade nine religion book called Our Quest for Happiness.

Supeprnatural Faith

The faith we are talking about, however, is far superior to merely natural faith. When we consider faith as the master guide to our goal, we have reference not to human, natural faith, but to divine, supernatural faith. Supernatural faith, from one point of view, is an act of the intellect under the dominion of the will, by which, with the help of grace, we assent with complete certainty to the truths God as revealed. From another point of view it is a supernatural habit, enabling these supernatural acts.

In this latter sense we can define supernatural faith as a theological virtue, a free gift of God, consisting in an infused supernatural habit or permanent capacity for believing, by which man is disposed to accept as true everything God has revealed solely because of the authority and truthfulness of God who reveals it.

To change this capacity into a facility or ease in our daily actions, we must make repeated acts of faith until, with the assistance of the infused virtue, we develop the acquired habits of a life of faith. special attention is drawn to the fact, therefore, that faith is both a supernatural virtue, or habit infused into the soul at Baptism, and also a set of acquired habits wihci are developed by repeated acts springing from the infused virtue. It is not enough that we were baptized and are in the state of grace. With the assistance of actual grace we must exercise ourselves in acts and practices of faith so that the supernatural capacity given us by the infused virtue produces all of its wonderful effects in our daily lives.

This once again is from the same book.

My words would pale in comparison

Offering up suffering and afflictions is what makes us holy … easier said than done but true!

I appreciate your taking the time to clarify holy assent and the transformation/divinization process. Sounds a bit heady, dry, and theologically steeped, but coherent and substantial at its core. Thanks!

 

[darcee]

Mandi,

You are confusing despair and depression.

They are two separate things.

-D

 

[Lilyofthevalley]

I don’t see why you folks are wasting your time on someone who possesses poor logic and reasoning. Didn’t Jesus say something about casting pearls to the swine?

 

[darcee]

shhhhh you are sounding like my DH

-D

Lilyofthevalley:

I don’t see why you folks are wasting your time on someone who possesses poor logic and reasoning. Didn’t Jesus say something about casting pearls to the swine?

 

[baltobetsy]

Lilyofthevalley:

I don’t see why you folks are wasting your time on someone who possesses poor logic and reasoning. Didn’t Jesus say something about casting pearls to the swine?

Yes but He also said the Good Shepherd leaves the ninety-nine and goes after the lost one.

Betsy

 

[Lilyofthevalley]

People who believe depression is a sin aren’t lost, they just hold an uneducated opinion. Unfortunately, to use religion to hide such a baseless opinion is tacky, but what can a body do about that?

 

[naprous]

Mandi:

Secondly depression is not a sign of poor faith - Faith is the remedie for depression

Thirdly (and this is the point that has somehow gotten lost) Despair is a sin against the Holy Ghost - what does this mean… we are NOT ALLOWED to wallow in depression … which means if you fall easily towards depression - (which by the way is the tendency for those with a melancholie temperment) Then you must not remain there.

Mandi,

I can’t remember if you’ve ever suffered from depression, but if you have, it sure wasn’t the kind of depression I suffer from. Can you understand that what you are recommending is simply impossible for many depressed people? They aren’t wallowing in self-pity – they are simply UNABLE to “snap out of it.” According to you, if I have a melancholic temperament (you’re not talkiing the medieval theory of the four humors here, are you? because if so, we need to have a chat about more modern medical ideas, ok?), I “must not” remain in depression. It’s not a question of will, Mandi. No one “wills” to suffer from depression.

How I wish it were so easy as to simply decide not to be depressed any more! But it just isn’t.

And as everyone else has already pointed out, depression and despair are not the same thing. But depression can lead to despair – I’ve been there, and it’s not pretty. I don’t go there any more, thanks to medication.

Naprous