Is dialogue with Islam possible? Yes, Vatican says

[TruthBearer]

I wonder how can you speak for all Sunni schools? Can you show some proofs from at least some, and how these are more authoritative than others or differing?

I don’t care if you believe me or not.

Prove that there is a difference opinion concerning this between the schools.** And I might look it up. ** If you quote some no name scholar from a particular school, **I won’t research it. I know enough about the four schools of fiqh, to know the authorities of each school. Currently I am unaware of any difference of opinion concerning this between the schools. ** So I am not going to research it for you.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I don’t care if you believe me or not.

Prove that there is a difference opinion concerning this between the schools.** And I might look it up. ** If you quote some no name scholar from a particular school, **I won’t research it. I know enough about the four schools of fiqh, to know the authorities of each school. Currently I am unaware of any difference of opinion concerning this between the schools. ** So I am not going to research it for you.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Charity please

**Moderators have a tendency to get a little miffed when warnings are issued and promptly ignored.
Follow the debate guidelines. **

 

[Mount_Carmel]

Dialogue is possible with ‘Islam’, but due to its nature and origins, only by massive (name removed by moderator)ut from the Holy Spirit - as and when the Good Lord deems fit.

Please be mindful that according to the Qur’an ‘Allah’ is the lord of deception, and that indeed Muhammad was supposedly deceived into endorsing the ‘Satanic Verses’ in order to give Islam a ‘kick start’ - and that ‘Allah’ appears to play fast and loose with ‘truth’ in the employment of abrogation and taqiyya and kitman {in effect ‘lying for Islam’].

 

[Servant19]

Please be mindful that according to the Qur’an ‘Allah’ is the lord of deception…

If one were to look at how God has created a world FULL of things to distract us from the spiritual world and the Kingdom and has “veiled” the Kingdom from the eyes of mortal man, one could easily see how he has created the best deception Creation ever known…

.

 

[TruthBearer]

Please be mindful that according to the Qur’an ‘Allah’ is the lord of deception, and that indeed Muhammad was supposedly deceived into endorsing the ‘Satanic Verses’ in order to give Islam a ‘kick start’ - and that ‘Allah’ appears to play fast and loose with ‘truth’ in the employment of abrogation and taqiyya and kitman {in effect ‘lying for Islam’].

If you DON’T want Muslims to have dialogue with Christians, then continue misrepresent what they believe about the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, as you have done above.

 

[TruthBearer]

Dialogue between Christians and Muslims have happened in the past. An example of such is between Orthodox Christians and Sunni Muslims in a book entitled,

**“Paths to the Heart” **(Sufism and the Christian East) Contributors include Bishop Kallistos Ware, Seyyed Hossein Nasr and Huston Smith.

On the Back of the Book:

What do the mystical traditions of the Christian East and Sufism have in common?
Is there a dialogue that can promote a deep and lasting bond between Christianity and Islam?

***“Written by authors who are at once eminent scholars and earnest souls, the essays in Paths to the Heart evince a rare combination of intellectual rigor, breadth of spirit and deep personal faith. Together these writers confirm for us the genuine love of the other is as much mediated by wisdom and truth as are wisdom and truth by this love.” ***- Scott C. Alexander, Director of Catholic-Muslim Studies, Catholic Theological Union

---

“The peace of the world in the new century may depend in no small measure on the ability of the Islamic world and historically Christian countries to communicate with one another. Perhaps the best hope for deeper understanding between Christians and Muslims lies in the fact that the finest in both religions have drawn on a common pool of imagery – language of the heart – as they try to describe what is ultimately beyond words: the human encounter with God.” ***Bruce Clark, International Security Editor, The Economist

 

[Reuben_J]

Just because there is a rule in Islam that states a Muslim can lie about their religion, when threatened with death,** doesn’t mean they will lie in a causal dialogue.**

Is this exclusively Sunni’s teaching? Because this is not what I heard. A Muslim actually is permitted to make that small lie if it is for the good of the family or to achieve harmonious relationship (with your spouse).

 

[Matthew_Light]

Dialogue is possible with ‘Islam’, but due to its nature and origins, only by massive (name removed by moderator)ut from the Holy Spirit - as and when the Good Lord deems fit.

Please be mindful that according to the Qur’an ‘Allah’ is the lord of deception, and that indeed Muhammad was supposedly deceived into endorsing the ‘Satanic Verses’ in order to give Islam a ‘kick start’ - and that ‘Allah’ appears to play fast and loose with ‘truth’ in the employment of abrogation and taqiyya and kitman {in effect ‘lying for Islam’].

Dialogue with someone you believe is worshiping Satanic deception is essentially impossible. And that is basically what some Muslims believe about Christians, and some Christians believe about Muslims. And that belief is itself a catastrophic barrier to creating peace.

Fortunately, this is not what the Pope and the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[rose_kelly]

Yes it is possible, and an absolute necessity.

Muslim-Christian Dialogue. oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t236/e0567
Note the reference to Pope John Paul 11.

 

[TruthBearer]

Is this exclusively Sunni’s teaching? Because this is not what I heard. A Muslim actually is permitted to make that small lie if it is for the good of the family or to achieve harmonious relationship (with your spouse).

These things are the exception, NOT the general rule.

Yes it is permitted for a Muslim not to call her wife fat, if she is indeed fat. But I do not see anything in Islamic law where it would be permitted to lie in a dialogue between a Christian and Muslim.

The general rule for a Muslim, is they have to be truthful at all times. Except for when it is reasonable to lie, when your wife who is pregnant ask you, “Does this dress make me look fat?” It is permitted to say “No.” At war, when ones life is in danger. Or, settling family disagreements.

Lying is forbidden in almost every other case. ** In Business, it is forbidden for a Muslim to lie.** If a Muslim sales man, is trying to sell a shirt, and his customer puts it on and ask, does this shirt look good on me, and it makes the customer look ugly, it is forbidden for a Muslim to say it looks nice, just to sale a shirt. If he is selling a car, and he knows that it is broken, he has to be truthful about it. This is how Malaysia and Indonesia was converted to Islam, because of the truthfulness of Muslim merchants. Local traders would mix water in with the milk and other bad things merchants do to make money. Muslim merchants are not permitted to do so, unless they tell you.

**Muslims cannot lie to you, regarding their religion. ** They cannot lie to you about what they believe or practice. a Muslim can choose not to discuss it with you, but they cannot lie to you about it. It is forbidden to lie about religion, except when there is no fear of death, and that would only be on the battlefield. And this is an exception, it is not obligatory for a Muslim to lie on the battlefield.

To me it is wrong, to suggest that its normal for Islamic scholars to lie about Islam. There are countless stories of scholars in Islamic history who were tortured because they refuse to say what they didn’t believe. ** Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal**, was imprisoned and tortured by Muslim rulers of his time because he would not say “the Quran is created.” **He would rather die than say the Quran was created. **

There is a saying among the Muslims, “the good deeds of the common people are the bad deeds of the righteous.” Which is to say just because certain deeds are permissible by Islamic Law, doesn’t mean they are desirable deeds.

 

[Reuben_J]

These things are the exception, NOT the general rule.

Yes it is permitted for a Muslim not to call her wife fat, if she is indeed fat. But I do not see anything in Islamic law where it would be permitted to lie in a dialogue between a Christian and Muslim.

The general rule for a Muslim, is they have to be truthful at all times. Except for when it is reasonable to lie, when your wife who is pregnant ask you, “Does this dress make me look fat?” It is permitted to say “No.” At war, when ones life is in danger. Or, settling family disagreements.

Lying is forbidden in almost every other case. ** In Business, it is forbidden for a Muslim to lie.** If a Muslim sales man, is trying to sell a shirt, and his customer puts it on and ask, does this shirt look good on me, and it makes the customer look ugly, it is forbidden for a Muslim to say it looks nice, just to sale a shirt. If he is selling a car, and he knows that it is broken, he has to be truthful about it. This is how Malaysia and Indonesia was converted to Islam, because of the truthfulness of Muslim merchants. Local traders would mix water in with the milk and other bad things merchants do to make money. Muslim merchants are not permitted to do so, unless they tell you.

**Muslims cannot lie to you, regarding their religion. ** They cannot lie to you about what they believe or practice. a Muslim can choose not to discuss it with you, but they cannot lie to you about it. It is forbidden to lie about religion, except when there is no fear of death, and that would only be on the battlefield. And this is an exception, it is not obligatory for a Muslim to lie on the battlefield.

To me it is wrong, to suggest that its normal for Islamic scholars to lie about Islam. There are countless stories of scholars in Islamic history who were tortured because they refuse to say what they didn’t believe. ** Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal**, was imprisoned and tortured by Muslim rulers of his time because he would not say “the Quran is created.” **He would rather die than say the Quran was created. **

There is a saying among the Muslims, “the good deeds of the common people are the bad deeds of the righteous.” Which is to say just because certain deeds are permissible by Islamic Law, doesn’t mean they are desirable deeds.

Thank you for the clarification that Muslims are indeed allowed to lie in the exceptional situations that you mentioned. I just wanted to qualify your earlier statement that Muslims do not lie in casual dialogue. From a Christian’s point of view this is important qualification in Islamic belief. A Christian who would not know of this exception would think that Muslims cannot lie in all situations. Lying is a sin and there is no compromise in it in Christianity. So I hope you understand why I brought up the issue.

There is another aspect where Muslim leaders in the past did lie in time of war in order to deceive the enemies to subdue/kill them. There were Hadiths testifying to this but I am not sure whether you would consider this as genuine or not, and I would not force the issue if you disagree.

 

[TruthBearer]

Thank you for the clarification that Muslims are indeed allowed to lie in the exceptional situations that you mentioned. I just wanted to qualify your earlier statement that Muslims do not lie in casual dialogue. From a Christian’s point of view this is important qualification in Islamic belief. A Christian who would not know of this exception would think that Muslims cannot lie in all situations. Lying is a sin and there is no compromise in it in Christianity. So I hope you understand why I brought up the issue.

A Muslim cannot lie in a casual dialogue with people, a Muslim cannot lie even when joking. Even though lying is permitted in certain those situations that I mentioned in my previous post, the truth is always preferred over lying.

There is another aspect where Muslim leaders in the past did lie in time of war in order to deceive the enemies to subdue/kill them. There were Hadiths testifying to this but I am not sure whether you would consider this as genuine or not, and I would not force the issue if you disagree.

Please provide the proof and provide the hadiths. I don’t know where it would be permitted for a Muslim leader to lie in war, except that he makes a public statement that he will be attacking the enemy from the east and he attacks the enemy from the west instead.

Because a Muslim cannot lie when surrendering or making treaties with the enemy because treachery is forbidden in Islam. It is forbidden for a Muslim create distrust with the enemy. Treaties are legally binding and cannot be broken in Islam.

 

[TruthBearer]

Thank you for the clarification that Muslims are indeed allowed to lie in the exceptional situations that you mentioned. I just wanted to qualify your earlier statement that Muslims do not lie in casual dialogue. From a Christian’s point of view this is important qualification in Islamic belief. A Christian who would not know of this exception would think that Muslims cannot lie in all situations. Lying is a sin and there is no compromise in it in Christianity. So I hope you understand why I brought up the issue.

There is no situation that Sunni Muslim could lie to a Christian except in war, that would only be if he/she felt his life was threatened. Thus it is impractical for a Christian to be worrying about whether a righteous Muslim would lie to him regarding a religious dialogue.

 

[TruthBearer]

Thank you for the clarification that Muslims are indeed allowed to lie in the exceptional situations that you mentioned. I just wanted to qualify your earlier statement that Muslims do not lie in casual dialogue. From a Christian’s point of view this is important qualification in Islamic belief. A Christian who would not know of this exception would think that Muslims cannot lie in all situations. Lying is a sin and there is no compromise in it in Christianity. So I hope you understand why I brought up the issue.

.

Another thing, its not an Islamic belief, It is such an exception that most Muslims probably don’t know of these exceptions. As Muslims are encouraged to be truthful.

 

[quantum_star22]

And WHO speaks for Islam???

"*He (Mohammed) seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh urges us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected; he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity.

He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the Contrary, Mohammed said that he was sent in the power of his arms - which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning (1). Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Mohammed forced others to become his follower’s by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimony of the Old and the New Testaments by making them into a fabrication of his own, as can be seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place faith in his words believe foolishly.*" - Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 1, Chapter 16, Art. 4. Footnote: 1. Sura 21:5, Sura 44:14; Sura 16:103, Sura 37:36 -St Thomas Aquinas

 

[quantum_star22]

“You are quite right saying that I am a Saracen by blood, born into that race on both father’s and mother’s side. I was educated in the religion of Muhammad, and lived according to it as long as I remained in ignorance. But when the Almighty had mercy on me and selected me from among my brothers and relatives and saved me through His Son Jesus Christ my God, and granted me a more perfect understanding, then I quitted my former faith, as being a manmade creed based on fables thought up by human subtlety and invention. So now I cling to the true faith of the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, as revealed to us by Jesus Christ. In that faith I have been baptized and now worship, for this is the True God, and now I am a Christian un-wavering in my conviction.”-St Abo of Baghdad

 

[quantum_star22]

"We have come to preach faith in Jesus Christ to you, that you will renounce Mohammad, that wicked slave of the devil, and obtain everlasting life like us.”-St Francis of Assisi

 

[quantum_star22]

"But the present circumstances are forcing me to think differently about our way of life, for why are [so many] wars being fought among us? Why do barbarian raids abound? Why are the troops of the Saracens attacking us? Why has there been so much destruction and plunder? Why are there incessant outpourings of human blood? Why are the birds of the sky devouring human bodies? Why have churches been pulled down? Why is the cross mocked? Why is Christ, who is the dispenser of all good things and the provider of this joyousness of ours, blasphemed by pagan mouths so that he justly cries out to us: “Because of you my name is blasphemed among the pagans,” and this is the worst of all the terrible things that are happening to us. That is why the vengeful and God-hating Saracens, the abomination of desolation clearly foretold to us by the prophets, overrun the places which are not allowed to them, plunder cities, devastate fields, burn down villages, set on fire the holy churches, overturn the sacred monasteries, oppose the Byzantine armies arrayed against them, and in fighting raise up the trophies [of war] and add victory to victory. Moreover, they are raised up more and more against us and increase their blasphemy of Christ and the church, and utter wicked blasphemies against God. Those God- fighters boast of prevailing over all, assiduously and unrestrainably imitating their leader, who is the devil, and emulating his vanity because of which he has been expelled from heaven and been assigned to the gloomy shades.”-St Sophronios Patriarch of Jerusalem

 

[quantum_star22]

“They also accuse us as idolaters for reverencing the Cross, which they despise. And we say to them, “Why, therefore, do you rub yourselves against the stone by your Khabathan, and love kissing the stone?” And some of them say Abraham had relations with Hagar upon it, and others that he tied up the camel around it when about to sacrifice Isaac. And we respond to them, “The Scripture says that there was a mountain like a grove, and wood from which also Abraham cut for the whole burnt offering on which he laid Isaac, and that he left the donkeys with the servants. Therefore, from what source is your foolish saying? For there is no wood of a forest lying in that place, nor travelling by donkeys.” They are indeed ashamed. Nevertheless, they say the stone is of Abraham. Then we say, “If it is of Abraham, as you foolishly say, therefore are you not ashamed, kissing this thing only because Abraham had relations with a woman upon it, or that he tied up a camel? But you censure us because we show reverence to the Cross of Christ through which the strength of the demons and the deceit of the Accuser is destroyed?” And this thing which they say is a stone is the head of Aphrodite which they reverenced, who they also called Khabar, upon which also even up to now the shadow of an inscription appears to careful observers.”-St John of Damascus