Is Double Predestination compatible with a belief in purgatory

[Latin]

Latin:

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The Church uses the word salutary for that which is meritorious. All that is good is not salutary.

There are actually four related dogmas the Ludwig Ott lists in that section of Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, at page 233 and following. There is a distinction between morally good action and salutary.

§ 9. Human Nature’s Capacity to Act without Grace, and the Limits of This Capacity
a) Even in the fallen state, man can, by his natural intellectual power, know religious and moral truths. (De fide.)
b) For the performance of a morally good action Sanctifying Grace is not required. (De fide.)
c) The Grace of Faith is not necessary for the performance of a morally good action. (Sent. certa.)
d) Actual Grace is not necessary for the performance of a morally good action. (Sent. certa.)

Jesus said: … Without Me you can do nothing (John 15:5). .

nothing​

Also found in: Thesaurus , Legal , Acronyms , Idioms , Encyclopedia , Wikipedia .
noth·ing

(nŭth′ĭng)

pron.

1. No thing; not anything: The box contained nothing. I’ve heard nothing about it.

2. No part; no portion: Nothing remains of the old house but the cellar hole.

3. One of no consequence, significance, or interest: The new nonsmoking policy is nothing to me.

n.

1. Something that has no existence.

2. Something that has no quantitative value; zero: a score of two to nothing.

3. One that has no substance or importance; a nonentity: "A nothing is a dreadful thing to hold onto" (Edna O’Brien).

nothing

Definition, Synonyms, Translations of nothing by The Free Dictionary

www.thefreedictionary.com

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God bless

 

[Vico]

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The teachings of the Catholic Church distinguishing between morally good and salutary (meritorius) are in accord with John 15:5.

 

[Latin]

Latin:

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The teachings of the Catholic Church distinguishing between morally good and salutary (meritorius) are in accord with John 15:5.

I’m sorry Vico, for me our debate on the meaning of nothing is closed.

If you like to debate on predestination that is fine with me.

Bod bless

 

[Vico]

…
I’m sorry Vico, for me our debate on the meaning of nothing is closed.

If you like to debate on predestination that is fine with me.

Bod bless

It is not a debate, I am just posting what the Church teaches. But I don’t know what you mean by "the meaning of nothing ".

 

[Latin]

I’m agree it is not really a debate, rather a teaching process because we are learning from each-other.

It refers back to: Jesus said: … Without Me you can do nothing (John 15:5).

The Canons of the Council of Orange (529 AD)

CANON 20. That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.
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If we combine together John 15:5 with cannon 20 we get the statement as follows:

Man can do NOTHING without God, for this very reason, God is RESPONSIBLE for EVERYTHING man does by permission or by elicitation. – The buck stops with God.

With other words:
Grace always PRECEDES actions, grace given for action to be done.

NO grace NO action. We can do NOTHING without the grace of God.

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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES , and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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Because God is the cause of action in every agent, even man’s free will determination to do good comes from God. ST, Pt I, Q 23, Art 5.
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Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3: God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. …

Phil.2:13; For it is God who works in you both to will and to act in order to fulfil his good purpose.

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MEANING

If God would stop working in us, we could will NOTHING and we could do NOTHING.

So there is NO such thing as will and action without grace, because grace always PRECEDES will and action. – This is the teachings of the Catholic Church which overrides all other opposing theories!

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We are not puppets because God gives us different alternatives to choose from.

The key to understand is:
God gives us the alternatives to choose from which alternatives are in line with God’s Eternal Design/Plan for the universe was created.
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We CAN NOT chose from alternatives which would contradict with God’s Eternal Design/Plan for the universe was created, because that kind of alternatives does not exists. – If would exists God would contradict Himself, because that would against His Eternal Design/ Plan which cannot be frustrated.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

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So there is NO such thing as will and action without grace, …

Only actions performed justified are salutory (meritorius), and there are actions done without grace which are naturally good. Posted before from St. Thomas Aquinas, S.T.:

“And thus without grace man cannot merit everlasting life; yet he can perform works conducing to a good which is natural to man, as “to toil in the fields, to drink, to eat, or to have friends,” and the like, as Augustine says…”.

The Catholic Church uses very specific meaning for grace. Modern Catholic Dictionary has this explanation: “As the Church has come to explain the meaning of grace, it refers to something more than the gifts of nature, such as creation or the blessings of bodily health. Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation.”

So you can understand that morally good acts can occur before justification (obtaining sanctifying grace through cooperation with actual grace).

Catholic Encyclopedia:

Not less reasonable an attitude was assumed by the Church respecting the moral capabilities of fallen man in the domain of natural ethics. Against Baianism, the forerunner of Jansenism, she adhered in her teaching to the conviction confirmed by healthy experience, that natural man is capable of performing some naturally good works without actual grace, and particularly without the grace of faith, and that not all the deeds of infidels and pagans are sins. This is evidenced by the condemnation of two propositions of Baius by Pope Pius V in the year 1567: “Liberum arbitrium sine gratiae Dei adjutorio nonnisi ad peccandum valet” (“Free will without the aid of God’s grace avails for nothing but sin.” — Prop. xxvii), and again: “Omnia opera infidelium sunt peccata et philosophorum virtutes sunt vitia” (“All the acts of infidels are sins, and their virtues are vices.” — Prop. 25). The history of paganism and everyday experience condemn, moreover, with equal emphasis these extravagant exaggerations of Baius. Among the duties of the natural moral law some — as love for parents or children, abstention from theft and drunkenness — are of such an elementary character that it is impossible to perceive why they could not be fulfilled without grace and faith at least by judicious, cultured, and noble-minded pagans. Did not the Saviour himself recognize as something good natural human love and fraternal greeting, such as they exist also among publicans and pagans? He denied to them only a supernatural reward (mercedem, Matthew 5:46 sq.). And Paul has explicitly stated that “the Gentiles, who have not the [Mosaic] law, do by nature [naturaliter, physei] those things that are of the law” (Rom., ii, 14). The Fathers of the Church did not judge differently

Pohle, J. (1909). Actual Grace. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689x.htm

 

[Vico]

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No, actual grace does not precede every good act rather every salutary act, per the Magisterial document posted before. Pope Pius V condemned that statement that “Free will, without the help of God’s grace acts only in order to sin.”

And even from St. Thomas posted before, S.T.:

“And thus without grace man cannot merit everlasting life; yet he can perform works conducing to a good which is natural to man, as “to toil in the fields, to drink, to eat, or to have friends,” and the like, as Augustine says…”.

 

[Latin]

The following theological facts condemns the theory that actual grace does not precede every good act.

1. Jesus said: Without Me you can do nothing (John 15:5).
2. Canon of the Council of Orange 20. Man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.
3. St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
4. Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3: God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. …
5. Phil.2:13; For it is God who works in you both to will and to act in order to fulfil his good purpose.
6. St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
7. Council of Orange Canon 25 states, "In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us." (#329.2)
8. The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.
9. Canon of the Council of Orange 22; Concerning those things that belong to man. No man has anything of his own but untruth and sin.
10. ST. AUGUSTINE; De gratia Christi 25, 26: "For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it."
11. ST. AUGUSTINE; De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL."
12. Canon of the Council of Orange 23; Concerning the will of God and of man. Men do their own will and not the will of God when they do what displeases him; but when they follow their own will and comply with the will of God, however willingly they do so, yet it is his will by which what they will is both prepared and instructed.

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The whole Catholic Soteriology condemns the theory that actual grace does not precede every good act.
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Do you still believe Vico that actual grace does not precede every good act?

Thank for your answer in advance.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

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Yes, I gave you the magisterial statements before that show it.

The Church teaches that actual grace precedes all salvific acts, but is not necessary for a good act. Remember that “Free will without the aid of [God’s grace] avails for nothing but sin.” is condemned, therefore there can be acts of free will without the aid of God’s grace that avail good.

 

[Latin]

Latin:

…

Yes, I gave you the magisterial statements before that show it.

The Church teaches that actual grace precedes all salvific acts, but is not necessary for a good act. Remember that “Free will without the aid of [God’s grace] avails for nothing but sin.” is condemned, therefore there can be acts of free will without the aid of God’s grace that avail good.

Jesus said: Without Me you can do nothing (John 15:5),

Phil.2:13; For it is God who works in you both to will and to act in order to fulfil his good purpose, etc, etc.
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Christ’s statement and the Scripture OVERRIDES EVERY opposing statements.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Latin:

…

Yes, I gave you the magisterial statements before that show it.

The Church teaches that actual grace precedes all salvific acts, but is not necessary for a good act. Remember that “Free will without the aid of [God’s grace] avails for nothing but sin.” is condemned, therefore there can be acts of free will without the aid of God’s grace that avail good.

Jesus said: Without Me you can do nothing (John 15:5),

Phil.2:13; For it is God who works in you both to will and to act in order to fulfil his good purpose, etc, etc.
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Christ’s statement and the Scripture OVERRIDES EVERY opposing statements.

The meaning of that quote is not contrary to the teaching of the Church that man can do good without actual grace, but must have grace first for justification and merit. There is no override. [EDIT following] The Church had to put down the idea expressed by Jansenius which denies the doctrine of sufficient grace. His teaching lead to the conclusion that Christ did not die for all men and that the Holy Trinity does not wish all men to be saved.

 

[Latin]

Latin:

Vico:

Latin:

…

Yes, I gave you the magisterial statements before that show it.

The Church teaches that actual grace precedes all salvific acts, but is not necessary for a good act. Remember that “Free will without the aid of [God’s grace] avails for nothing but sin.” is condemned, therefore there can be acts of free will without the aid of God’s grace that avail good.

Jesus said: Without Me you can do nothing (John 15:5),

Phil.2:13; For it is God who works in you both to will and to act in order to fulfil his good purpose, etc, etc.
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Christ’s statement and the Scripture OVERRIDES EVERY opposing statements.

The meaning of that quote is not contrary to the teaching of the Church that man can do good without actual grace, but must have grace first for justification and merit. There is no override.

So, when Jesus say NOTHING His word doesn’t mean NOTHING.

When the Scripture proclaims: It is God who works in you both to will and to act, doesn’t say It is God who works in you both to will and to act.
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Looks like it is a new religion.

 

[Vico]

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One that does not have grace is not abiding in Christ and that one does not bear the fruit spoken of: merit. Nobody merits without sanctifying grace.

John 15

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

Catechism

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace . The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

In the prior post I added:

The Church had to put down the idea expressed by Jansenius which denies the doctrine of sufficient grace. His teaching lead to the conclusion that Christ did not die for all men and that the Holy Trinity does not wish all men to be saved.

The reasoning of Jansenius is that fallen man cannot help sinning continually because he is deprived of grace and that is because his nature is essentially corrupt, but the Catholic Church teaches that the nature is not essentially corrupt, contrary to Jansenius:

Catechism

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

 

[Latin]

Thank you Vico for your post, I understand what you have written and I’m fine with it.
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What I don’t understand is:
Why the non-Christians can do what the Christians cannot?
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THE ONLY WAY THE CHRISTIANS ABLE TO WILL GOOD AND DO GOOD AS FOLLOWS

ST. AUGUSTINE; De gratia Christi 25, 26: "For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it."
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ST. AUGUSTINE; De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: "It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL."
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Phil.2:13; For it is God who works in you both to will and to act in order to fulfil his good purpose.

Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3: God effects everything, the willing and the *achievement.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.
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Thus things happen contingently as well as of necessity (I, Q. xxii, a. 4), for God has given to different things different ways of acting, and His concurrence is given accordingly (I, Q. xxii, a. 4).
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Yet all things, whether due to [necessary] causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by [God] and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.
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Hence Providence is at once universal, immediate, efficacious, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him (I, Q. xxii, a. 3; Q. ciii, a. 6); efficacious, in that all things minister to [God’s] final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated (Contra Gent., III, xciv);

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According to the above teachings of the Church, the Christians even to will good and to do good MUST BE aided by God’s graces and before their act, must receive God’s grace of the powers of operation from God which enables them to act.

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And yet, those who are still not yet Christians, they can will good, they can do good without receiving God graces which would enable them to will good and to do good.

They also, don’t need the grace of the powers of operation from God which enables the Christians to will good and to do good.

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Could you please Vico explain with your own words how it is possible:

The Christians can do NOTHING WITHOUT GOD’S GRACES, they cannot even will good, yet the non-Christians can will good, they can do good without God’s graces, even without the grace of the powers of operation which enables the Christians to act.

Thank you in advance.
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God bless.

 

[Vico]

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It is the same for Christians and non-Christians. The distinction is between natural and supernatural. Mankind can do good naturally without supernatural help, however cannot save himself, which requires supernatural grace. Together these provide the dogmas that reject Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism, and of the errors of Michael DuBay and of Jansenism (that supernatural grace was part of the very essence of man and other conclusions from it). Note what was stated in the Catechism “but human nature has not been totally corrupted”.

From Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 254:

Baius, Jansenius, Quesnel

a) Michael Baius (d. 1589), appealing to St. Augustine like Luther denied the supernaturalnature ofthe gifts of man in the state of innocence, holding them to be things pertaining to the perfection of human nature. Like Luther, he equated original sin and habitual concupiscence. According to him, the will has become intrinsically unfree. All actions of men proceed either from cupiditas, i.e., evil concupiscence, or from the charity infused by God. The former actions are morally bad, the latter morally good. In the year 1567, Pope Pius V condemned 79 propositions from the wtitings of Baius (D 1001-1080).

b) The error of Comelius Jansenius (d. 1638) is alogical extension of Baianism. According to Jansenius, man’s will, in consequence of the Fall, is not free and is incapa»le of any goodness. All man’s actions proceed either from earthly desires which stem from concupiscence (delectatio terrena sive carnalis) or from heavenly desires, which are produced by grace (delectatio coelestis). Each exercises an urgent influence on the human will, which in consequence of its lack of freedom always follows the.pressure of the stronger desire (delectatio vietrix). According therefore as the earthly or the heavenly desire preponderates in a man so his actions are sinful or morally good. If the delectatio coelestis is victorious, it is called gratia efficax or irrestibilis; if it be overcome by earthly desire it is gratia parva or mere sufficiens. In the year 1653, Pope Innocent X condemned five propositions of ]ansenius, taken from the latter’s work “Augustinus.” D 1092-96.

c) Paschasius Quesnel (d. 1719) popularised the views of Baius and Jansenius and specially stressed the irresistibility of the Grace of Christ. In the year 1713, Pope Clement XI in the Bull Unigenitus" condemned 101 propositions from Quesnels writings. D 13S1-14S1.

 

[Vico]

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Do you believe Vico, in the way described above if God would will, He could save the entire human race?
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No. Some are destined by their own free will to hell.

• God, by an Eternal Resolve of His will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to etenal rejection. (De fide.) - Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. Summarized from The Synod of Valence III (855 A.D.), canon 3 (see below).

Can. 3. But also it has seemed right concerning predestination and truly it is right according to the apostolic authority which says: “Or has not the potter power over the clay, from the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor, but another unto dishonor?” (Rm 9,21) where also he immediately adds: “What if God willing to show His wrath and to make known His power, endured with much patience vessels of wrath fitted or prepared for destruction, so that He might show the riches of His grace on the vessels of mercy, which He has prepared unto glory” (Rm 9,22 f.): faithfully we confess the predestination of the elect to life, and the predestination of the impious to death; in the election, moreover, of those who are to be saved, the mercy of God precedes the merited good. In the condemnation, however, of those who are to be lost, the evil which they have deserved precedes the just judgment of God. In predestination, however, (we believe) that God has determined only those things which He Himself either in His gratuitous mercy or in His just judgment would do * according to Scripture which says: “Who has done the things which are to be done” (Is 4 Is 5,11, LXX); in regard to evil men, however, we believe that God foreknew their malice, because it is from them, but that He did not predestine it, because it is not from Him.

Matthew 22:14 Many are invited, but few are chosen.

Luke 13:27 Then he will say to you, ‘I do not know where [you] are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers!’

Romans 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the Israelites were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved;

2 Thess 2: 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord [Jesus] will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming, 9 the one whose coming springs from the power of Satan in every mighty deed and in signs and wonders that lie, 10 and in every wicked deceit for those who are perishing because they have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved. 11 Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie, 12 that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.

 

[Vico]

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Do you believe Vico, in the way described in my post 79, if God would will, could He save the entire human race?
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We have hope that unbaptized infants will be saved but without certainty. We pray in general for the salvation of the whole human race. We are not dogmatically required to believe that any particular human is in hell. We know that the fallen angels are cast to hell. Possible means within the power or capacity of someone. If each individual choose charity then it could happen, but God could not make it happen as an override of free will for that would be contrary to dogma of resistible grace.

 

[Vico]

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Some are predestined to eternal rejection, through their own free will.

There is a double will of the Holy Trinity:

a) God’s general (universal) will of salvation which wishes the salvation of all men on the condition that they die in the state of grace (voluntas antecedens et conditionata).

b) God’s special (particular) will of salvation which, in consideration of the moral state of each person at the hour of death, unconditionally desires the salvation of all those who depart this life in a state of grace (voluntas cosequens et absoluta). This coincides with predestination. In so far as the consequent. unconditional will of God refers to the exclusion of a person from eternal bliss. it is called reprobation. Cf. St. John Damascene. De fide orth. II 29.

Ref: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 238-9

The Catholic Church has given us a few dogmas:

• Despite men’s sins God truly and earnestly desires the salvation of all men. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
• God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufliciens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
• God gives all the faithful who are sinners sufficient grace (gratia saltem remote sufficiens) for conversion. (Sent. communis.)
• God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.)
• God, bv His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness. (De fide.)
• God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection. (De fide.)
• The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible. (De fide.)
• There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere sufficiens). (De fide.)

 

[Vico]

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Council of Lateran IV, 1215 A.D. using the present tense, there are people in hell:

And finally the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ, incarnate by the whole Trinity in common, conceived of Mary ever Virgin with the Holy Spirit cooperating, made true man, formed of a rational soul and human flesh, one Person in two natures, clearly pointed out the way of life. And although He according to divinity is immortal and impassible, the very same according to humanity was made passible and mortal, who, for the salvation of the human race, having suffered on the wood of the Cross and died, descended into hell, arose from the dead and ascended into heaven. But He descended in soul, and He arose in the flesh, and He ascended equally in both, to come at the end of time, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to each according to his works, to the wicked as well as to the elect, all of whom will rise with their bodies which they now bear, that they may receive according to their works, whether these works have been good or evil, the latter everlasting punishment with the devil, and the former everlasting glory with Christ.