Is eternal suffering pointless?

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  1. Why is Augustine so wrong?
Silence.
  1. If Augustine (among many other saints/council fathers/popes) is so wrong about this issue, why is he held in such high esteem as a council father, saint, bishop, and doctor? Why hasn’t the magisterium come out with a statement disavowing Augustinian theology in this area? Why hasn’t a modern Pope apologized to the world for Augustine’s mistakes (they have apologized for much less)?
Silence.
  1. If everyone has always believed that unbaptized infants go to heaven, why has there been no formal, infallible declaration of such a thing in 16 centuries?
Silence.
  1. If it is so obvious that infants go to heaven, why doesn’t the magisterium settle it conclusively? Afterall, they have made confident, infallible proclamations about things which are certainly more doubtful.
Silence.
  1. If the conciliar phrase “those who die in original sin alone” doesn’t really refer to children below the age of reason and simpletons without use of reason, then who does it refer to?
Silence.
 
The link you provided is an anti-Catholic website designed to misrepresent what the Catholic Church has actually taught.
OK, so read it with the recognition of that bias. It is mostly direct quotes of saints, popes, councils, doctors, bishops, and famous theologians. Surely you don’t mean they are anti-Catholic? Just ignore the website creator’s commentary, or account for the bias, and go ahead and refute the direct quotes or explain how they don’t represent Catholic teaching or beliefs.

Is the logic flawed? Are the quotes mistranslated? Are the quotes made-up? Are they incorrectly attributed? You have accused this website of misrepresentation. Please specify the nature of the misrepresentation and we can examine it.
 
Those who are not with me are against me.

Would imply a conscious decision is necessary, against him.

Would imply a sufficiently complete understanding to make the decision.

The procedure beyond the grave is not known but implied ‘nothing is impossible’, and ‘world to come’ suggest possibilities and possibly thats all we are going to get while Dogmatic statements like ‘unless you be baptised’ are equally true on earth as they may be in the ‘world to come’.
 
What is the implication of not being in heaven? Salvation is mainly liberation from sin and its consequences. From ITC we see that there is hope for unbaptized infants to have salvation:37. c) In the documents of the magisterium in the Middle Ages, the mention of “different punishments” for those who die in actual mortal sin or with original sin only (“As for the souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, they go down immediately to hell, to be punished, however, with different punishments")[66] must be interpreted according to the common teaching of the time. Historically, these affirmations have certainly been applied to unbaptised infants, with the conclusion that these infants suffer punishment for original sin. It must be observed however that, in a general way, the focus of these Church pronouncements was not on the lack of salvation for unbaptised infants, but on the immediacy of the particular judgment after death and the assignment of souls to heaven or hell. These magisterial statements do not oblige us to think that these infants necessarily die with original sin, so that there would be no way of salvation for them.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html#_ftn41
According to Dr. Ludwig Ott in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:“The clear teaching of Holy Writ and Tradition is that after Christ, and the Apostles who proclaimed the message of Christ, no further Revelation will be made.”
Also, the progress in dogmas follows in this way:1) Truths which formerly were only implicitly believed are expressly proposed for belief. …
  1. Material Dogmas are raised to the status of Formal Dogmas.
  2. To facilitate general understanding, and to avoid misunderstandings and distortions, the ancient truths which were always believed, e.g., the Hypostatic Union (unio hypostatica), Transubstantiation, etc., are formulated in new, sharply defined concepts.
  3. Questions formerly disputed are explained and decided, and heretical propositions are condemned. Cf. St. Augustine, De civ. Dei 2, 1 ;* ab adversario mota quaestio discendi existit occasio* (a question moved by an adversary gives an occasion for learning).
Are you saying the set “those who are in heaven” is a subset of “those who have attained salvation?” Can you point me to a magisterial, infallible statement showing that? The ITC is theological speculation.
 
I glanced at the link. It looks like a bunch of garbage to me written by people who have an axe to grind. For instance they call limbo pelagianism, which means the authors do not understand pelagianism or limbo. They are just trying to make Catholicism look bad. They are not interested in truth. I would not believe anything they had to say. My experience with rabid anti-Catholicism is it is full of misunderstandings and falsehoods. And I have neither the time or inclination to chase down every one.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=853882

articles.latimes.com/2007/apr/21/world/fg-limbo21
The surest sign of one disinterested in the truth is the unwillingness to confront error.

If their aim is to make Catholicism look bad, what does it say that most of the text is direct quotation of popes, saints, councils, fathers, mystics, visionaries, and highly esteemed theologians?
 
Those who are not with me are against me.

Would imply a conscious decision is necessary, against him.

Would imply a sufficiently complete understanding to make the decision.

The procedure beyond the grave is not known but implied ‘nothing is impossible’, and ‘world to come’ suggest possibilities and possibly thats all we are going to get while Dogmatic statements like ‘unless you be baptised’ are equally true on earth as they may be in the ‘world to come’.
I don’t disagree with your reasoning from scripture, but the RCC doesn’t care about our reasoning from scripture. Infallible statements of councils must be believed by all Catholics. To deny these statements is to be cursed by the Church.

I do not think Catholics have the freedom to believe that unbaptized babies are going to heaven. If they did have that freedom, the Church would make an infallible statement about it. Catholics are obligated to believe many more outrageous and doubtful things, and it would be effortless for a Pope to simply proclaim that all unbaptized babies go to heaven.

If a Pope were to do such a thing, it would be incontrovertible evidence that the Church has contradicted herself, and everyone knows it. I believe this is why the modern Church makes ambiguous statements about “hope” and “trust.” They’re between a rock and a hard place. If they affirm that unbaptized infants go to heaven, they contradict themselves and call into question all the doctrines arising from “original sin.” If they finally specifically define that unbaptized babies go to hell, they make God look like an evil monster. They can’t admit they’ve ever been wrong about this, or else they will lose credibility and contradict “infallibility.” I do not envy their position, but at the same time, this comes to mind:

“Whoever sows injustice reaps calamity, and the rod they wield in fury will be broken.”
Proverbs 22
 
Why would Augustine, the one who introduced the doctrine of original sin into Christianity in the first place, teach that infants were damned, if he didn’t believe it to be necessarily and logically implied?
Actually, the first Church Father known to have at least alluded to the doctrine of original sin is Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho 88:4 (A.D. 155). There were three prevalent theories between the East and West by the time of Augustine, and they were all based on the teachings of St. Paul (Rom. 5:12-21; 1 Cor. 15:22).

St. Augustine:

"Who can doubt that non-baptized infants, having only original sin and no burden of personal sins, will suffer the lightest condemnation of all? I cannot define the amount and kind of their punishment, but I dare not say it were better for them never to have existed than to exist there"

In Contra Julianum 5.11


Much of what Augustine wrote on salvation was prompted by his controversy with Pelagius and his heretical teachings. He was defending the theology of original sin in its fundamental form which included the necessity of infant baptism as a means of removing the stain of original sin. Unfortunately, to be consistent, he felt compelled to maintain that an unbaptised infant which died was eternally damned.

Augustine’s soteriology depended on the fundamental Catholic belief that no human being can merit the initial grace of justification and forgiveness. And this grace, which cannot be received by any preceding natural merit of ours, can only be received through baptism. This explains why Augustine was so theologically strict and legalistic in his views.

True, he did accept the idea of baptism of desire and of blood, but it seems he did not see these informal baptisms as applying to infants. Still he was disconcerted by the thought of unbaptised infants being punished along with unrepentant sinners. Thus he believed that these infants would somehow face the least punishments. But these sufferings wouldn’t be so harsh that it would have been better for these infants to never have existed at all. Anyway, the Church has rejected Augustine’s rigid views in this matter, as theological opinions are prone to be.
(Pope Zosimus at the Council of Carthage XVI, Canon 3, Denzinger, 30th edition, p.45, note 2).
Of course, Trent > Pope Zosimus. But, it demonstrates that this belief in infant damnation went right to the top in the western church by the 5th century.
The Council of Carthage ?:

"It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: “In my house there are many mansions”: that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where happy infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is life eternal, let him be anathema."

This definitely is not an infallible statement about the eternal fate of unbaptized infants, but rather a condemnation of anyone who uses this Scriptural passage of"many mansions" to mean baptism is unnecessary.

The Council of Carthage was a regional council which consisted of African bishops. It rejected the teaching of Pelagius. In these words, it condemned his opinion that infants “do not contract from Adam any trace of original sin, which must be expiated by the bath of regeneration that leads to eternal life”. The council declared that “even children who of themselves cannot have yet committed any sin are truly baptised for the remission of sins, so that by regeneration they may be cleansed from what they contracted through generation”. It was also added that there is no “intermediate or other happy dwelling place for children who have left this life without Baptism, without which they cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, that is, eternal life” on the grounds of Pelagius’ belief. Meanwhile, this council did not explicitly endorse all aspects of Augustine’s stern view about the destiny of infants who die without Baptism. Pope Zosimus only ratified the council’s condemnation of Pelagius and his heretical views on the necessity of Baptism.

Keep in mind that when the Church acknowledges a baptism of desire or baptism of blood, it isn’t teaching something “in addition” to water baptism. Rather, the Church acknowledges that there are other means by which God may effect the equivalence of grace imparted at baptism by the soul’s desire or martyrdom. Further God is free to effect the graces of baptism onto a “formally” unbaptized infant. Thus such an infant will have been baptized by God in an extenuating way even if the formal rite had not been performed upon the birth of the infant. Meanwhile, in all cases of baptism, God sanctifies the soul with His healing and regenerating grace, without which no soul can enter Heaven (cf. Rev. 21:27).

Moreover, it’s questionable that this text is actually from the Council. As the Catholic Encyclopaedia points out immediately preceding that paragraph: “The following, says Surius, is found in this place in a very ancient codex. It does not occur in the Greek, nor in Dionysius. Bruns relegates it to a foot-note.”

newadvent.org/fathers/3816.htm

The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

‘The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.’ [n.1257]

:heaven:
 
Our fellow Christians in the ME and Africa are being persecuted for their faith as I type this. They are the most persecuted group in the Islamic ME and African wars. Our western governments should be rescuing all Christians in these wars as a matter of priority. Yes, we should help the Muslims as well but we should help the most oppressed first. I apologise for bringing this into the debate but I feel very strongly that the bedrock of western nations is Judeo Christianity and we should act accordingly to save our Christian brothers and sisters.
You are right. It is absolutely terrible what is happening to Christians in the ME and Africa. Muslims, Hindus, and religious believers of every kind are oppressed and victimized by other believers and non-believers of every type. I am leaving right now to help settle some refugees from Congo. More arrive here from all over the world every day. I am so grateful to God for the religious freedom we have in the USA, it is truly one of the greatest achievements of our civilization, in my opinion. We must all support religious freedom and tolerance, or we’ll never have peace in the world!
 
I don’t disagree with your reasoning from scripture, but the RCC doesn’t care about our reasoning from scripture. Infallible statements of councils must be believed by all Catholics. To deny these statements is to be cursed by the Church.

I do not think Catholics have the freedom to believe that unbaptized babies are going to heaven. If they did have that freedom, the Church would make an infallible statement about it. Catholics are obligated to believe many more outrageous and doubtful things, and it would be effortless for a Pope to simply proclaim that all unbaptized babies go to heaven.

If a Pope were to do such a thing, it would be incontrovertible evidence that the Church has contradicted herself, and everyone knows it. I believe this is why the modern Church makes ambiguous statements about “hope” and “trust.” They’re between a rock and a hard place. If they affirm that unbaptized infants go to heaven, they contradict themselves and call into question all the doctrines arising from “original sin.” If they finally specifically define that unbaptized babies go to hell, they make God look like an evil monster. They can’t admit they’ve ever been wrong about this, or else they will lose credibility and contradict “infallibility.” I do not envy their position, but at the same time, this comes to mind:

“Whoever sows injustice reaps calamity, and the rod they wield in fury will be broken.”
Proverbs 22
Part of what I had meant to say is that there is a difference between knowing and believing.

We know Dogmatically that baptism is necessary to enter.

We are free to believe him when he said nothing is impossible for him.

What the church possibly may not do is state Dogmatically as specific knowledge something which is suggested as possible in general.

If he had said specifically all babies go to heaven then that would be a Dogma.

I think the church, if I was the church, would state the truth. Somethings are Dogma because they have been transmitted directly and specifically and others are implied or suggested from more general thoughts.
 
Your argument isn’t with me my friend, you disagree with the saints/popes/councils/infallible statements/private revelations/miracle-workers/fathers/doctors of the Roman Catholic Church. I’m right there with you, we’re on the same side! It is all ridiculous and cruel nonsense. However…Pope St. Gregory the Great doesn’t agree with us unfortunately:
St Gregory was humble enough to admit he was fallible:
Code:
  BOOK XXXV.
   	 	 
  In which many  	things already said are repeated in recapitulation, 
  and this  	immense work is brought to a close by a most lowly 
  confession of  	human infirmity.
And though I do not find that I have said any things that are wrong, yet I do not maintain that I have not said any at all.
lectionarycentral.com/GregoryMoralia/Book35.html

We should follow his example…
 
Here is a treatment on unbabtized babies on Vatican website that is worth reading. It covers the views of the Fathers, the historical view as well as why we can be hopeful for their salvation.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
I have read this many times and studied it carefully for years. It is essentially an exercise in futility and frustration. The commission openly acknowledges that Catholic teaching has recently “matured” in this area, but shrinks from manful contradiction of the prior infallible statements of the magisterium. Think about it: they’re arguing that we should be confused and doubtful (disguised as “hope”) about the fate of unbaptized infants. I thought that Jesus placed the Church here to clarify, instruct, and teach humanity the truth. Why the obfuscation, the hedging, the avoidance of clarity and hesitation? Where is the strong and bold Roman Catholic Church which used to shout anathemas while she burned and tortured heretics? Where is the roar of the pontifex maximus, who proclaimed with absolute certainty many finer points of much more subtle difficulties? Indeed, it seems as if he has abdicated his throne, both literally and metaphorically.
 
Indeed, it seems as if he has abdicated his throne, both literally and metaphorically.
To clairfy: I meant Benedict XVI since he reigned during the conclusion of this commission. I am not suggest that there is no Pope now or something like that.
 
I have read this many times and studied it carefully for years. It is essentially an exercise in futility and frustration. The commission openly acknowledges that Catholic teaching has recently “matured” in this area, but shrinks from manful contradiction of the prior infallible statements of the magisterium. Think about it: they’re arguing that we should be confused and doubtful (disguised as “hope”) about the fate of unbaptized infants. I thought that Jesus placed the Church here to clarify, instruct, and teach humanity the truth. Why the obfuscation, the hedging, the avoidance of clarity and hesitation? Where is the strong and bold Roman Catholic Church which used to shout anathemas while she burned and tortured heretics? Where is the roar of the pontifex maximus, who proclaimed with absolute certainty many finer points of much more subtle difficulties? Indeed, it seems as if he has abdicated his throne, both literally and metaphorically.
The article talks about the maturing of Catholic doctrine. The historical position is limbo. But, even Augustine had some concession for unbabtized infants. For instance, although he taught they went to hell because they still had Original sin, he said because they have not committed any actual mortal sins they would not experience punishment like those in hell who had committed mortal sins. In other words Augustine thought the punishment of a lack of sanctifying grace was enough for original sin. But that they deserved no further infliction.

It was later in the 13th century that the view of limbo was brought in. This view placed unbabtized babies on the very outskirts of hell and a natural paradise where they experienced perfect joy and happiness, but without the beatific vision. This more merciful view is what became standard teaching in the middle ages. In opposition to this view rose the jansenists in the 16th century who rejected limbo in favor of the extreme view that unbabtized babies suffered in the fires of hell along with all those who committed mortal sin.

It seems that the area in which change and development is the slowest is religion. This may be why the Jansenists opposed limbo. They were opposed to any change even at the cost of unbabtized babies. But according to the article while there were some Fathers who were rather extreme in their views there was also some who had a different view. While Augustine’s view became dominant in the Latin Church up until Limbo, the Eastern Father’s did not. Thus Augustine’s view was not universal.

It seems that because change is resisted in religion that is why doctrine like this is difficult to progress. The Jansenists and others like them retard it. In my opinion it is better to error on the side of mercy as Jesus said with the mercy we show others will we be shown mercy. If Jesus expects us to be perfectly merciful as is the Father then we can expect God to do no less. Because the Church prays for the souls of the Holy innocents that should give us hope for their cause. As well as the prayers of Mary and the Saints.
 
To say more about Augustine’s concession, the article states Augustine’s reasoning as such:

“God is just. If he condemns unbaptised children to hell, it is because they are sinners. Although these infants are punished in hell, they will suffer only the “mildest condemnation” (“mitissima poena”),[33] “the lightest punishment of all”,[34] for there are diverse punishments in proportion to the guilt of the sinner.[35]These infants were unable to help themselves, but there is no injustice in their condemnation because all belong to “the same mass”, the mass destined for perdition.”

Now, when you consider Augustine you also have to consider that not everything Augustine said is considered true by the Church. For instance in some of his writings he seems to advocate double predestination, that some are predestined for hell. This goes against the Church teaching. Thus, not everything every Church Father said is considered true. And especially in subjects where there is no consensus by different Fathers.
 
No where does the Church say that every bishop, Saint or even Pope is going to always have a correct theory or theological opinion on matters of debate.
 
No where does the Church say that every bishop, Saint or even Pope is going to always have a correct theory or theological opinion on matters of debate.
Never suggested that was the case, just that they claim ecumenical councils, popes under certain conditions, and the ordinary magisterium have the charism of infallibility (i.e. they’re never wrong about matters of faith and morals).

Again, if Augustine is so wrong about something so important and so central to his theology, then why didn’t someone censor him? Why doesn’t the Church come out and publicly disavow his theological opinions? An apology would be in order as well, to all the generations of bereaved parents whose children were denied funerals and burials in Christian cemeteries.
 
The surest sign of one disinterested in the truth is the unwillingness to confront error.

If their aim is to make Catholicism look bad, what does it say that most of the text is direct quotation of popes, saints, councils, fathers, mystics, visionaries, and highly esteemed theologians?
Hogwash. Others have addressed that page in the links I provided. The page from the Vatican is much more informative and scholarly. If your statement is true then no one is interested in the truth. Since no one has the time to seek out and refute all errors throughout history. Besides what they were saying didn’t even make philosophical sense. They were saying that limbo was pelagian. Yet limbo isn’t even in heaven. Not only that the Church accepted limbo during the middle ages. So it can’t be pelagian. Right there that is enough to refute them as they started off on the wrong foot. I don’t need to read the rest of it when their course already starts off wrong.
 
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