Is Evolution official?

[Cling2Cross]

I have been tring to study the whole issue of creationism/evolution. I have noticed that everyone here at CA forums seems to dislike creationism (in any of its forms). Has the Church officially disavowed creationism (in any or all forms) for evolution taking a symbolic/allegorical look at Gen. 1 as it? Thanks and God bless.

The biblical explanation of creation does not at all match up with what scientists present in their findings regarding evolution. Many things are backwards in terms of what came before what and their are other major issues. You cannot marry the two and it is a grave error to try to do so.

The way I look at it is this…we do not have the whole of the evidence concerning origins and nobody can prove for or against the existence of God. Evolution is far from a fact and has many difficulties. The 7-year RATE project that you may have read about showed evidence that the earth is, indeed, a young earth. It all depends on what glasses you are using - biblical worldview glasses or humanistic/natural/godless worldview. The evolution proponents assume billions of years and that is what they are going to slant things towards. The ultimate tension in the whole debate is GOD. Include GOD and they say it is not science…this is how they run away from Him. And, because it would include GOD…then it cannot be in the public schools. Our children are being force-fed theory as fact…theory that continues to fall flat…where you see the simplest forms of life being irreducibly complex and you see, even at the molecular level, a vast gulf between each of the different kinds…no transitory evidence. To marry creation/evolution is to compromise with the “wisdom” and speculations of godless and depraved man.

Do you believe in an infinite material universe (which is a mathematical absurdity) or an infinite uncaused GOD who caused the universe to exist (anything that began to exist had a cause, the universe began to exist, therefore it had a cause). It is one or the other.

Genesis 1:3
Then God said, "Let there be glight”; and there was light.

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

God spoke and it was so…

 

[Cling2Cross]

So are you saying that when God in Genesis 1-11 tells us that He created in 6 24 hour perids of time He was not telling the truth. Every time the Bible used the word day in relation to night and day it referrs to a 24 hour period. This grammtically correct. Do you know that carbon dating is not exact in determining the age of anything. Carbon-14 only has a half life of around 7500 years.So nothing could be found to be older than 15,000 years onld using this method of dating.

 

[Cling2Cross]

Bible said…

Jeremiah 33:22
As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.

Science was counting and claiming…I am sure they were doing all that they could to push the Bible out of the world…BUT…once we were able to peer out into the universe, we found the Bible to be true!!! Why - because God wrote it!

The “theory” of evolution continues to suffer the same losses…assuming the simplest life to be simple they have found it to be extremely complex - irreducibly complex…and ultimately:

Philippians 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[PhilVaz]

DLC << Do you know that carbon dating is not exact in determining the age of anything. Carbon-14 only has a half life of around 7500 years. So nothing could be found to be older than 15,000 years old using this method of dating. >>

Yeah and not only that, there are fire-breathing dinosaurs in the book of Wisdom and Job!

First off, it clearly says in Genesis “God CREATED man and woman” - it does not say God EVOLVED man, and then woman from tadpoles!! God CREATED man and woman!

I also will not allow you “know it alls” to try shoving down my throat that the earth is billions of years old and that dinosaurs existed 100 million years ago before the dawn of man. It clearly states in the book of Job, Psalms, and Wisdom, that dinosaurs were sent by God to destroy the wicked in Noahs’ time. Of course now your argument will be that these “dinosaurs” were Rhinos and alligators, but not so - “Mr. Bubbles” - not so. And I call you all Mr. Bubbles since you are “all” so eager to proclaim being descendents of chimps!

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/dragon1.jpg

Funny - these giant fierce monsters who breathed fire and devoured the wicked with armor unable to be penetrated, doesn’t sound like some rhinos or alligators to me!! I really don’t think anyways that a herd of rhinos or even the fiercest alligators could destroy an entire population of humans. Neither do they breath fire! It also says in the Book of Job this…

The history of every culture is filled with stories of fire-breathing dragons. If you think about it, in all the past ages wouldn’t someone have made up a story of a fire-breathing lion or something? Nobody did because the dragon stories are based on truth, and only “dragons” breathed fire. It is easy to imagine Leviathan as a member of the dragon (tanniyn) family.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/dragonred.jpg

Many fossil dinosaur skulls contain unexplained, empty passages. Scientists have not been able to guess the reason for these passages. Would it make sense that some dinosaurs used these passages as “gas tanks” for the combustible mixture used to “breathe fire?”

So then Mr. Bubbles, dinosaurs are relatively young since they walked the earth in NOAH’S TIME!! They WERE SENT BY GOD to destroy the wicked. You can try all you want sending me link after link of what you deem “proof” that we as humans evolved from one single organism - but I won’t believe it! I will stand by my KNOWLEDGE and belief as a Christian that man and woman are an image of God, - not a zygote somehow evolved to where God said "Hey look! This thing here somehow resembles US!!

not Phil P

 

[MariaG]

So are you saying that when God in Genesis 1-11 tells us that He created in 6 24 hour perids of time He was not telling the truth. Every time the Bible used the word day in relation to night and day it referrs to a 24 hour period. This grammtically correct. Do you know that carbon dating is not exact in determining the age of anything. Carbon-14 only has a half life of around 7500 years.So nothing could be found to be older than 15,000 years onld using this method of dating.

Just curious, do you also believe in the Real Presence of Christ? Not wanting to get into a discussion on this and derail the thread but I am just curious if you insist on a literal interpretation of all scripture or just that which fits with your beliefs.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I would have thought that every Christian (Catholic or otherwise) on the forums believes in some form of creationism, since we all believe in a Creator.

So, what do you mean exactly by “creationism,” which you have put in opposition to “evolution”?

Actually most people, including even most scientists, are creationists where it matters.
Evolution doesn’t make a distinction between the brain and other organs. Therefore behaviour, as much as the human form, is a pure product of evolution. When this is pointed out it creates massive opposition, even from professional evolutionary biologists such as Stephen Gould.

However it is perfectly true, at least to a first approximation. Most people seek their adaptive interests, or rather what would be their adaptive interests if we still lived on the African savannah. Even your fondest moral and social values are in fact the calling of the genes, executing a blind and ulitmately pointless algorithm for their own propagation.

 

[Cling2Cross]

Just curious, do you also believe in the Real Presence of Christ? Not wanting to get into a discussion on this and derail the thread but I am just curious if you insist on a literal interpretation of all scripture or just that which fits with your beliefs.

John 6:63
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

He was speaking figuratively…but anyway - back to God’s creation of all things.

 

[Cling2Cross]

Actually most people, including even most scientists, are creationists where it matters.
Evolution doesn’t make a distinction between the brain and other organs. Therefore behaviour, as much as the human form, is a pure product of evolution. When this is pointed out it creates massive opposition, even from professional evolutionary biologists such as Stephen Gould.

However it is perfectly true, at least to a first approximation. Most people seek their adaptive interests, or rather what would be their adaptive interests if we still lived on the African savannah. Even your fondest moral and social values are in fact the calling of the genes, executing a blind and ulitmately pointless algorithm for their own propagation.

Thanks for the links!

 

[Cling2Cross]

DLC << Do you know that carbon dating is not exact in determining the age of anything. Carbon-14 only has a half life of around 7500 years. So nothing could be found to be older than 15,000 years old using this method of dating. >>

Yeah and not only that, there are fire-breathing dinosaurs in the book of Wisdom and Job!

First off, it clearly says in Genesis “God CREATED man and woman” - it does not say God EVOLVED man, and then woman from tadpoles!! God CREATED man and woman!

I also will not allow you “know it alls” to try shoving down my throat that the earth is billions of years old and that dinosaurs existed 100 million years ago before the dawn of man. It clearly states in the book of Job, Psalms, and Wisdom, that dinosaurs were sent by God to destroy the wicked in Noahs’ time. Of course now your argument will be that these “dinosaurs” were Rhinos and alligators, but not so - “Mr. Bubbles” - not so. And I call you all Mr. Bubbles since you are “all” so eager to proclaim being descendents of chimps!

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/dragon1.jpg

Funny - these giant fierce monsters who breathed fire and devoured the wicked with armor unable to be penetrated, doesn’t sound like some rhinos or alligators to me!! I really don’t think anyways that a herd of rhinos or even the fiercest alligators could destroy an entire population of humans. Neither do they breath fire! It also says in the Book of Job this…

The history of every culture is filled with stories of fire-breathing dragons. If you think about it, in all the past ages wouldn’t someone have made up a story of a fire-breathing lion or something? Nobody did because the dragon stories are based on truth, and only “dragons” breathed fire. It is easy to imagine Leviathan as a member of the dragon (tanniyn) family.

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/dragonred.jpg

Many fossil dinosaur skulls contain unexplained, empty passages. Scientists have not been able to guess the reason for these passages. Would it make sense that some dinosaurs used these passages as “gas tanks” for the combustible mixture used to “breathe fire?”

So then Mr. Bubbles, dinosaurs are relatively young since they walked the earth in NOAH’S TIME!! They WERE SENT BY GOD to destroy the wicked. You can try all you want sending me link after link of what you deem “proof” that we as humans evolved from one single organism - but I won’t believe it! I will stand by my KNOWLEDGE and belief as a Christian that man and woman are an image of God, - not a zygote somehow evolved to where God said "Hey look! This thing here somehow resembles US!!

not Phil P

Does the CC teach a theistic evolution?

 

[Cling2Cross]

I have no desire to rehash this for the fourth time or so here. So I will just say this:

1. The Church basically has admitted that evolution is a correct model for how life evolved on earth. God of course is the Creator of all that is seen and unseen. The Church has not been especially clear on this, but that seems to be the bottom line. It is lamentable that this is so. A very nice discussion of this can be found at my blog, yesterday’s post, look for the link to John Ferrell.
2. Most Catholics here who accept the evolutionary model do not care whether some Catholics wish to believe in YEC, concurrent dinosaurs with humans etc. We do object when they promote it as Church teaching. Why?
3. Because you place Catholics in the same boat with fundamentalists, who are just about the only other group of Christians who still argue literalness in reading Genesis. That has certain repercussions.
4. I want my Church to have a strong voice in the world on important issues regarding poverty, war, fair wages, and a myriad of other things. When the world says that Catholics don’t even believe in evolution, they aren’t worth listening to, I have a problem…
5. So if your faith is such that evolution if true destroys it, then believe what you wish, just realize that its your needs that you are placing paramount to the truth.

I guess it does…which is why I do not go to the Catholic Church. We ought not compromise with “science” built on assumptions and speculations using part of the evidence.

I went to a Catholic High School that even brought Carl Sagan into the classroom…a godless supporter of evolution who called it fact. How sad that he proclaimed it even at his death. Equally sad that it was in a Catholic classroom.

 

[PhilVaz]

John 6:63 – It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (NKJV)

Interpretation 1: It is the Holy Spirit who gives life; the carnal, fleshly, natural understanding of man will profit you nothing. The words I speak require the Spirit to be understood, and those words with the Spirit are life, and give life. The Holy Spirit gives you spiritual understanding and spiritual eyes to see and understand and receive my literal words to “eat my flesh and drink my blood” in the Eucharist, as St. Paul says (1 Corinthians 2:10-14; cf. 11:27-29) –

“…this God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God. Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually.” (NAB)

John 6:62 – What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
John 6:63 – It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (NKJV)

Interpretation 2: It is the Spirit who gives life, and it is the power of the Holy Spirit that will resurrect my body (Rom 8:11ff) and will ascend my flesh to heaven (John 6:62); my mere flesh or mortal humanity by itself profits nothing, but my resurrected flesh with the Holy Spirit gives life since it is my resurrected, ascended body you must eat in the Eucharist to have eternal life and communion with me (1 Cor 10:16-17), and the literal words that I speak to “eat my flesh and drink my blood” in the Eucharist have the power of that same Spirit that gives life, and they are life, as St. Paul says (Romans 8:5-11) –

“For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.” (NKJV)

Phil P

 

[PhilVaz]

Cling << Does the CC teach a theistic evolution? >>

Were there fire-breathing dinosaurs in the Book of Job and Wisdom and Psalms? Some Catholics seem to think so.

My real position is here

The CC allows for evolution (Catechism paragraphs 159, 283-284) since all the scientific evidence points that way, and none toward a young earth, none against evolution. No, I don’t think there were fire-breathing dinosaurs in the Bible.

I was copying from some oldies in here…

Also, your appeal to John 6:63 has been answered above. Either of those two interpretations I provide would be acceptable. Jesus still meant to “eat my flesh and drink my blood” literally and as referring to the Eucharist.

Phil P

 

[Donald45]

So are you saying that when God in Genesis 1-11 tells us that He created in 6 24 hour perids of time He was not telling the truth.

No, I’m saying that your interpretation of what God says in Genesis is untrue.

Every time the Bible used the word day in relation to night and day it referrs to a 24 hour period. This grammtically correct.

geocities.com/athens/thebes/7755/genesismetaphor.html
asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1990/PSCF3-90Fischer.html
upper-register.com/papers/framework_interpretation.html

Do you know that carbon dating is not exact in determining the age of anything. Carbon-14 only has a half life of around 7500 years.So nothing could be found to be older than 15,000 years onld using this method of dating.

First, even if true (it’s not), there are several other scientific methods for dating the past which are used to corroborate the results of C-14 tests. However, concerning your claim:

talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011.html

Blessings,

Don
+T+

 

[CherryBomb]

The Church certainly seems to have a strong preference for theistic evolution.

And uggh, evolution does NOT say we came from chimps. It states that we share a common ancestor with modern chimps, apes, etc. Not the same thing at all.

 

[Hebrews_4_12]

I find it interesting to say the least to read so many posts all over this forum downplaying the clarity of God’s Holy Word when it comes to creation. It does not matter that they are elevating the fallen creature’s notions above the clear specially revealed inerrant infallible word of God. Nope - man must have his sinful rebellious way and close his ears to God’s clear revelation. The creation ex nihilo of all that is in 6 literal days is quite clear from scripture when one uses grammar consistently. The worldwide flood of all the earth with God saving 8 people in an ark along with all non sea-life in that same ark roughly 4500 years ago is also quite clear and also quite clearly denied by the majority of evolutionary scientist.
Would any Christian deny the virginal conception of Jesus based on the science of man? His super natural healings and or abilities? Or worse his bodily resurrection? No!! True Christians humble themselves before God always remembering how great a God we serve and how sinful and deceptive are our hearts desires to rule this world without the sovereign.
Isn’t curious how strongly the Marian Dogmas will be defended on these boards. Arguments that have very little if any Biblical support will be dragged out as if they are the equivalent to informational nuclear bombs. Just think about the supposed necessity of the bodily assumption of Mary to preserve her from death which is, in contrast to the dogma itself, rightly discerned from the scriptures to be an effect of the fall and original sin. Are those who defend theistic evolution and the bodily assumption of Mary being consistent? No, they are not. Death is either an enemy conquered by Christ on the cross and a result of or sin, or it is creative method of the god of evolution. You can not have it both ways. BTW spritualizing the death that occurs in the garden is not being consistent if Mary has to be physically assumed and Christ has to physically die on the cross.
I prefer to get my doctrine from the scriptures and to be limited and corrected by them in all that is necessary for salvation. No the Bible is not a book of science (since it is not corrected and limited by the knowledge of man) but where the Bible does make claims that can be scientifically explored, it is correct and not subject to the correction by fallen man.

 

[DLC]

Gensis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. What more can be said. God created everything out of nothing in 6, 24 hour days.

DLC

 

[VociMike]

Those who are setting faith and reason in opposition (in this case, objective scientific reasoning, and I’ll grant that some scientists do have agendas of their own) might want to read the encyclical Fides et Ratio (Faith and Reason, not Faith or Reason)

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

 

[Hebrews_4_12]

Those who are setting faith and reason in opposition

I hope you don’t mean the YEC’s are setting faith and reason in opposition, as a YEC and an Engineer I most definitively rely on both faith and reason in both areas. Believing in a supernaturally created earth that is about 6000 years young is NOT opposed to reason.

 

[VociMike]

I hope you don’t mean the YEC’s are setting faith and reason in opposition, as a YEC and an Engineer I most definitively rely on both faith and reason in both areas. Believing in a supernaturally created earth that is about 6000 years young is NOT opposed to reason.

Yes, I do mean that YECs are setting faith and reason in opposition.

 

[DLC]

How come evolutionists use carbon-14 dating results to show that the earth is millions of years old. Carbon-14 is unstable and slowly decays shanging back into nitrogen and releasing energy. The rate of decay os c14 is such that half of an amount will convert back into nitrogin in 5,730 +40 years. So in two half-lives or 14,460 years , only one quarter will be left. C14 dating cna show the age of an object up to 50,000 years. We could not show an earth of millions of years old using c14 dating methods.

We have a young earth as the Bible claims.