Is Evolution official?

[edwest2]

I see. Well, there are two sides to this issue; one involves science and the other involves God. God is described as the first cause. However man came to be, it was because God made it so. The theory of evolution, as presented here, is purely a political tool designed to create a problem with Christian interpretation of scripture. Specifically, Christ came to die for the man by whom sin entered the world.

However, your motives appear to be along these lines:

"Amid hoots of laughter, the Secularists walked out on talks with the Catholics about major global issues. A Secularists spokesman explained, “Talks broke down because the Catholics still have too many who do not believe in evolution as taught in American schools. We refuse to talk to any of them untill this problem is resolved.”

“A spokesman from the Catholic camp said that every effort is being made to distance themselves from the Fundamentalists, but the Church does allow them to believe the earth was created in six 24 hour days.”

Too bad, right?

God bless,
Ed

 

[Donald45]

…can you give one example of how this harms the Church?

"We should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn." ~ St. Augustine, bishop of Hippo

 

[edwest2]

According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow,but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22, 4 and 1). From part 69 of Human Persons Created in the Image of God.

In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science. From part 69.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Hebrews_4_12]

We are certainly not questioning the clarity of God’s word, only the clarity of creationism’s particular interpretation of God’s word.

What?!?! Do words have meaning in context? Please enlighten me on why I should not take the Hebrew word for day as a literal 24 hour earth day, when it is repeatedly used with a numeral, the words evening and morning, and the word next? Almost no Hebrew scholar would declare the writer of Genesis as attempting to convey anything other than an ordinary day. Every other instance of the word day used in the Old Testament with any one of those modifiers I listed above is considerd to be an ordinary day. Why not question those? Was Jonah in the belly of a large fish for 3 days or 3,000 years or was it 3 million years? I guess we just can’t know since God’s word can not clearly convey His meaning without the clarity of modern science.

No one’s questioning the authority, inerrancy, or infallibility of the Bible. We’re questioning the authority, inerrancy, and infallibility of your preferred interpretation of the Bible. After all, you yourself are simply expressing a “fallen creature’s notions” of the Bible’s meaning, are you not?

Again words either have meaning in context or they don’t. Nice try on pointing out my falleness, it is true that I could revival the Apostle Paul’s declaration of being chief of all sinners, but I at least am trying to let God’s word speak on it’s own and not trying reinterpret it so I cram modern man’s notions of an old earth (billions of years) in between its verses so I can look sophisticated in the world’s eye’s. You think the scientist’s are going to let you keep the virginal conception of Jesus and His resurection from the dead? Christ repeatly holds people accountable for knowing scripture and believing what God has revealed above the precepts of man.

 

[VociMike]

What?!?! Do words have meaning in context? Please enlighten me on why I should not take the Hebrew word for day as a literal 24 hour earth day, when it is repeatedly used with a numeral, the words evening and morning, and the word next?

Um, because the observing and reasoning powers given to us by God overwhelmingly tell us something different?

Look, pretend I’m an atheist with a PhD in some physical science who is developing an interest in Christianity. Explain to me how a unverse which appears to objective minds throughout the world to be around 15 billion years old, is really only about one-millionth as old. Explain to me why God did such a thing.

 

[edwest2]

The answer is that God stretched out the heavens. God did not do this to lie to anyone but, as God, it was within His creative power to do it. At some point, science needs to step aside when the Word of God says He actually did something.

So, taking Genesis literally, everything was put together in six 24 hour days and Adam was given a planet that was ready to live on. Period. As Catholics, we are taught God created man special. Whatever occurred after occurred after.

Did Jesus take Lazarus’ body down to the local Emergency Room and revive him? Did he take the wine and, I don’t know, add a quick aging formula? Come on! Is there anything that God did in the Bible, and we are talking about GOD, not some guy standing on the sidelines, that He actually did or was it all symbolically symbolic? Please. Some people say the Bible is not a science book, but what did God actually do as God? Ask yourself that. At least that should be in the Bible, literally.

God bless,
Ed

 

[MariaG]

Just curious, do you also believe in the Real Presence of Christ? Not wanting to get into a discussion on this and derail the thread but I am just curious if you insist on a literal interpretation of all scripture or just that which fits with your beliefs.

John 6:63
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

He was speaking figuratively…but anyway - back to God’s creation of all things.

Thanks for answering. I will share with you though that one of the biggest factors of me coming to the Catholic Church was this issue.

I was in a Church that did a bible study on Genesis and a young earth theory. The majority of those in this Church believed in a young earth as did(do:shrug I.

Yet when we did a study on John 6, the hoops that had to be jumped through to explain away the plain words of Christ, of scripture, were just too much.

I finally realized that whether the earth was young or old, was of little importance. Conversely, “if you don’t eat my flesh or drink my blood, you have no life in you” is of great importance.

You should really consider finding a good bible church that believes as you believe about a young earth but does not explain away the Real Presence of Christ. There are many non-Catholic Churches out there that believe so and are at least consistent in the way they interpret the word of God. I always find it disturbing when people believe in a young earth because the bible says so, but don’t believe in the Real Presence even though Christ said so. I pray that you will revisit the issue.

Respectfully,
Maria

 

[VociMike]

The answer is that God stretched out the heavens. God did not do this to lie to anyone but, as God, it was within His creative power to do it. At some point, science needs to step aside when the Word of God says He actually did something.

That would be a good answer if God’s intention was to create as many atheists as possible. Was that God’s intention? Was it his intention to make the first response of non-believers to Christianity a large horse-laugh?

 

[inthecloud]

For those who are more Popish that the Pope on evolution and cosmogenesis, please read this:

bringyou.to/apologetics/p80.htm

And this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0022.html

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I see. Well, there are two sides to this issue; one involves science and the other involves God. God is described as the first cause. However man came to be, it was because God made it so.
Absolutely fine statement
The theory of evolution, as presented here, is purely a political tool designed to create a problem with Christian interpretation of scripture. Specifically, Christ came to die for the man by whom sin entered the world.

**hats simply ludicrous. Political tool? You now accuse people of coming to this forum to disrupt your personal interpretation which you call Christian suggesting its every Christians…You are dead wrong and you obviously know it. This discussion has nothing to do with salvation history except for your personal interpretation again. **

However, your motives appear to be along these lines:

"Amid hoots of laughter, the Secularists walked out on talks with the Catholics about major global issues. A Secularists spokesman explained, “Talks broke down because the Catholics still have too many who do not believe in evolution as taught in American schools. We refuse to talk to any of them untill this problem is resolved.”

“A spokesman from the Catholic camp said that every effort is being made to distance themselves from the Fundamentalists, but the Church does allow them to believe the earth was created in six 24 hour days.”

This is absurd. And of course you know this. Where is all this secularist stuff? Ed, you are just scared to say what you really think…anybody who doesnt’ agree with your interpretation of scripture is an atheist. I’m rather tired of your continually hinting at this. Its insulting, absurd, and is the argument of a man who has run out of arguments, but that of course is the point. You’ve been backed off of every one so far. Your desperation is sad.

You create a silly story when its quite clear what my argument is, and its quite clear that its a common statement. People who are “crazy” aren’t listened to. The same goes for institutions. I have no interest in anyting the KKK has to say for the same reason.

 

[inthecloud]

The funny thing is that Ed often ignores when I post official Vatican sources like a well know german Padre.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

What?!?! Do words have meaning in context? Please enlighten me on why I should not take the Hebrew word for day as a literal 24 hour earth day, when it is repeatedly used with a numeral, the words evening and morning, and the word next? Almost no Hebrew scholar would declare the writer of Genesis as attempting to convey anything other than an ordinary day. Every other instance of the word day used in the Old Testament with any one of those modifiers I listed above is considerd to be an ordinary day. Why not question those? Was Jonah in the belly of a large fish for 3 days or 3,000 years or was it 3 million years? I guess we just can’t know since God’s word can not clearly convey His meaning without the clarity of modern science.

**I don’t think anyone is trying to claim a day is not a day. What we are saying is that the all science points to a very old earth and multiple disciplines that you depend on actually, depend on evolutionary theory as the working model in their work. **

Again words either have meaning in context or they don’t. Nice try on pointing out my falleness, it is true that I could revival the Apostle Paul’s declaration of being chief of all sinners, but I at least am trying to let God’s word speak on it’s own and not trying reinterpret it so I cram modern man’s notions of an old earth (billions of years) in between its verses so I can look sophisticated in the world’s eye’s. You think the scientist’s are going to let you keep the virginal conception of Jesus and His resurection from the dead? Christ repeatly holds people accountable for knowing scripture and believing what God has revealed above the precepts of man.

They you make God the greatest deceiver of all time and a liar. That is shameful. How many times must you be told that science does not deal with supernatural events.? You try to demonize science because you don’t like what it tells you. You don’t mind it all all, in fact you are all for it when it creates the things that make your life easy…The same processes are used in both cases, you accept science as long as it doesnt contradict any of your personal interpretation of the bible. Then some how its out to get you…It’s all so illogical and otherworldly. One wonders how anyone can be educated at all if you have to divide your brain so strangely to hold these contradictory truths in one skull.

 

[edwest2]

Aside from your emotional outbursts, aren’t Catholics allowed to believe in a literal, six 24 hour day Creation?

As a matter of fact, you were the one who brought up the infiltration of school boards and town councils by unidentified members of some group trying to get ID or stealth creationism into classrooms. Isn’t it possible that unidentified members of some group have infiltrated this forum to spread a belief (not saying you) in atheistic naturalism? It can work both ways.

God bless,
Ed

 

[buffalo]

That would be a good answer if God’s intention was to create as many atheists as possible. Was that God’s intention? Was it his intention to make the first response of non-believers to Christianity a large horse-laugh?

That question can also go to Genesis. God knew that in 2007 people would be trying to understand Genesis in light of their current understanding of science.

Why would He author/inspire a Biblical truths that would not withstand scrutiny? He can neither deceive or be deceived.

We must be careful here.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Aside from your emotional outbursts, aren’t Catholics allowed to believe in a literal, six 24 hour day Creation?

Not really. Any Catholic school, in Britain at least, will teach evolution as an established scientific fact. Any theologian will tell you that Darwin was substantially right.

However the Church also exists for the uneducated, and doesn’t try to constantly make these people feel inferior. An old lady is not going to be told she has to pay lip service to a scientific theory she doesn’t understand to remain a Catholic in good standing. If she sets herself up as some sort of quasi authority, however, like starting up a “concerned mothers against evolutionism” group, she will be made aware that the hierarchy isn’t with her.

 

[edwest2]

A recent television program attempted to explain the plagues brought on by God against Egypt during the time of Moses. A real attempt was made to defer to purely natural causes. The slogan “God didn’t do it” would apply.

Apparently, out of boredom, a desire for novelty or just to confuse and deceive, some people have decided to come up with alternate explanations for just about everything in the Bible, with a focus on human origins. I suggest Catholics get the latest Catechism or access the one online. We need to firmly understand what we believe which is based first on divine revelation and also on human reason.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Orogeny]

A recent television program attempted to explain the plagues brought on by God against Egypt during the time of Moses. A real attempt was made to defer to purely natural causes. The slogan “God didn’t do it” would apply.

Yeah, just like those dastardly scientists who insist that disease is caused by organisms too small to see rather than by sins! Heretics!!!

Peace

Tim

 

[buffalo]

Yeah, just like those dastardly scientists who insist that disease is caused by organisms too small to see rather than by sins! Heretics!!!

Peace

Tim

Are you saying disease is not the result of sin?

 

[Orogeny]

Are you saying disease is not the result of sin?

Any one person’s individual sin, yes. I am saying that microbes do cause disease and that at one time that was unknown. It was thought that people who got sick did so because of their personal sin. The idea that some tiny creatures caused disease was laughed at by many at one time.

Point is is that not knowing a natural cause doesn’t mean that one doesn’t exist.

Peace

Tim

 

[Donald45]

What!!! Do words have meaning in context? Please enlighten me on why I should not take the Hebrew word for day as a literal 24 hour earth day…

There is certainly no debate over the meaning of the word “day” (at least, not from me). Certainly, etymologically, the Hebrew word yom means “day.” No one’s disputing this. However, this is entirely irrelevant, given that it’s the literary and historical context of the word which determines how it’s being used. In the New Testament, for example, Jesus is referred to as a door, a vine, a light, etc. In each of these cases (and more), “door” means “door,” “vine” means “vine,” and “light” means “light.” It’s not the meaning of the word that’s in dispute, but rather how the author is using that term in its literary setting.

Please enlighten me on why I should not take the Hebrew word for day as a literal 24 hour earth day…

Since you asked… The ancient creation story in Genesis 1 bears several literary features that reveal its essentially poetic structure, as opposed to its being a straightforward historical narrative, as modern “creationists” wish to assert. Consider these important points:

~ the Scriptures contain virtually no additional references to any of the individual days of creation outside of Genesis 1. After the first chapter of Genesis, only the Sabbath receives any more specific attention. Thus, the modern creationist movement is giving the six days of creation far more emphasis than the Jews and the biblical writers ever did, even though the accounts were written by them and for them.

~ the creation account in Genesis 1 resembles a hymn, and is thus sometimes called the Hymn of Creation, or the Poem of the Dawn.

~ the creation accounts contain a number of alliterations (a poetic device) which are evident in the original Hebrew, but are essentially lost in the translation to English.

~ The Genesis 1 account containes several instances of Hebrew parallelism, a common feature of ancient poetry. These literary devices are clear in the Hebrew language, but are not readily evident in the English translation.

~ Repetition (a common feature of Hebrew poetry) plays a prominent role in the Genesis 1 account. The sentence “And God saw that it was good” serves as a refrain, tying the various creative acts of God together. Phrases like “and it was so” or “And God said” appear several times in repetition.

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