Is faith a gift?

[madera]

Grace is required to accept the gift of faith. The things we believe in are, after all, beyond our natural abilities to arrive at, apart from a higher authority. But in Catholic theology all grace is still resistable; we aren’t forced to draw near to God even as He draws near to us.

true!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

That it requires faith to accept the faith to accept the faith, ad infinitum…to accept the gift of faith is an infinite regress.

That isn’t what I said.

Why are you twisting my words to mean something I never said?

Hope brings us to faith. Faith brings us to love. Love brings us to God.

This is not an infinite regress since we are all finite and God is the end point of our journey.

There is no infinite regress. Only God is infinite.

 

[davidv]

That it requires faith to accept the faith to accept the faith, ad infinitum…to accept the gift of faith is an infinite regress.

Strawman. The gift of faith is not the gift of grace.

 

[JM3]

Faith itself is the capacity to “accept.” So, your argument that grace is required to accept the gift of faith simply begs the question: Is the faith, necessary to accept the gift of grace to accept the gift of faith, a gift?

Either I am freely given the grace and faith to accept the gift of salvation, or else salvation is not really a free gift at all. It is something I must work for and therefore it is something, that once achieved, I can boast about…“look here…I am a good person because I have achieved grace in the sight of God…but you are an evil person because you have not.”

DS 1525 - Council of Trent - session 6 - Chapter 5

The necessity for adults to prepare themselves for Justification and the origin of this Justification.

The beginning of justification must be attributed to God’s prevenient grace through Jesus Christ [can. 3], that is, to his call addressed to them without previous merits of theirs. Thus, those who through their sins were turned away from God, awakened and assisted by His grace, are disposed to turn to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace [cann. 4 and 5]. In this way, God touches the heart of man with the illumination of the Holy Spirit, but man himself is not entirely inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he can reject it; without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move toward justice in God’s sight [can. 3]. Hence, when it is said in Sacred Scripture: “Return to me and I will return to you” [Zech 1:3], we are reminded of our freedom; but when we reply: “Restore us to yourself, O Lord, that we may be restored” [Lam 5:21], we acknowledge that God’s grace precedes us.

First Vatican Council - Dei Filius - Chapter 3 - Faith

Now, although the assent of faith is by no means a blind movement of the mind, yet no one can accept the gospel preaching in the way that is necessary for achieving salvation without the inspiration and illumination of the Holy Spirit, who gives to all facility in accepting and believing the truth [20] .
And so faith in itself, even though it may not work through charity, is a gift of God, and its operation is a work belonging to the order of salvation, in that a person yields true obedience to God himself when he accepts and collaborates with his grace which he could have rejected.

Second Vatican Council - Dei Verbum

5… To make this act of faith, the grace of God and the interior help of the Holy Spirit must precede and assist, moving the heart and turning it to God, opening the eyes of the mind and giving “joy and ease to everyone in assenting to the truth and believing it.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church

153…Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. “Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.’”

 

[Counterpoint]

That isn’t what I said.

Why are you twisting my words to mean something I never said?

Hope brings us to faith. Faith brings us to love. Love brings us to God.

This is not an infinite regress since we are all finite and God is the end point of our journey.

There is no infinite regress. Only God is infinite.

Okay. Is “hope” a divine gift? If not, where does it come from?

 

[TarkanAttila]

That it requires faith to accept the faith to accept the faith, ad infinitum…to accept the gift of faith is an infinite regress.

Here’s a though: what if God was Himself infinite? That beginning and end do not exist with Himself?

One way to translate His name in the Old Testament - and the New - is “I AM”, or “I AM WHO AM”. If a thing simply “is” - which is one way you could describe God - it can be infinite, while still being one thing.

In point of fact, an infinite thing is the most logical explanation for the existence of anything else - including gravity, the origin of the Big Bang, or any finite, limited thing. For from nothing comes nothing. If something always exists, it does not come.

SO, in short, God’s infinity is rational - provided He was always infinite. So faith can come from an infinite thing.

 

[JM3]

That it requires faith to accept the faith to accept the faith, ad infinitum…to accept the gift of faith is an infinite regress.

Strawman. The gift of faith is not the gift of grace.

It may be a strawman or it may not be. It could also be that Counterpoint is not seeing that the gift of grace that leads to the gift of faith, and faith is also a grace, comes from someone else’s gift of of faith.

CCC 2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church.

 

[madera]

It may be a strawman or it may not be. It could also be that Counterpoint is not seeing that the gift of grace that leads to the gift of faith, and faith is also a grace, comes from someone else’s gift of of faith.

CCC 2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church.

there are no mysteries, it is because one has a lacking of understanding and fails to hear the Holy Spirit.
trying to figure everythiing out keeps the mind so busy it blocks anything from getting past the intellect…
psalms: “be still and know that I am God”,

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Okay. Is “hope” a divine gift? If not, where does it come from?

It comes from God as a gift when he created our nature. Without hope we would be poor indeed.

Materialists choose to repudiate hope, and so they choose poverty of spirit.

Poverty of spirit is thinking you are ultimately no more important in the grand scheme of things than the worms that will feed on your corpse.

 

[Counterpoint]

Counterpoint:

That it requires faith to accept the faith to accept the faith, ad infinitum…to accept the gift of faith is an infinite regress.

Here’s a though: what if God was Himself infinite? That beginning and end do not exist with Himself?

One way to translate His name in the Old Testament - and the New - is “I AM”, or “I AM WHO AM”. If a thing simply “is” - which is one way you could describe God - it can be infinite, while still being one thing.

In point of fact, an infinite thing is the most logical explanation for the existence of anything else - including gravity, the origin of the Big Bang, or any finite, limited thing. For from nothing comes nothing. If something always exists, it does not come.

SO, in short, God’s infinity is rational - provided He was always infinite. So faith can come from an infinite thing.

I fail to see what relevance this has to my previous post. If faith is a divine gift (which most here seem to agree), then whether we have faith or not is ultimately due to God and God alone.

 

[Counterpoint]

It comes from God as a gift when he created our nature. Without hope we would be poor indeed.

Previously, you stated: “Hope brings us to faith. Faith brings us to love. Love brings us to God.”

So, since everyone is endowed with hope (according to you), then everyone should be brought to faith, love, and God.

 

[TarkanAttila]

I fail to see what relevance this has to my previous post. If faith is a divine gift (which most here seem to agree), then whether we have faith or not is ultimately due to God and God alone.

From what I can tell, you seem to think faith is required to have faith. Not a Catholic soul here has said any such thing.

Faith does come from God alone. But you may, if you wish, accept or reject it - just as I may refuse to have faith in your comprehension skills, and may depart.

And, to reference your other thread, while God knows what you will do, until you choose to do it, you may not. I do not know if I will reply to your next post. I might not. But I might.

I await your response, as it will help me make a decision. Most likely, if it is an understanding response, I shall reply. But if you still don’t understand, I may think I am not able to help you any more. But it could go either way, or any number of others. It is my choice, and yours.

 

[LongingSoul]

I fail to see what relevance this has to my previous post. If faith is a divine gift (which most here seem to agree), then whether we have faith or not is ultimately due to God and God alone.

If you wanted someone to come visit you but they didn’t have transport you could gift them a car. However it is up to them to choose to drive it to your house. The car only achieves the visit if the person uses it to get him there.

 

[Counterpoint]

If you wanted someone to come visit you but they didn’t have transport you could gift them a car. However it is up to them to choose to drive it to your house. The car only achieves the visit if the person uses it to get him there.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[LongingSoul]

Originally Posted by LongingSoul
If you wanted someone to come visit you but they didn’t have transport you could gift them a car. However it is up to them to choose to drive it to your house. The car only achieves the visit if the person uses it to get him there

By my generosity I have given you a car so you can come to me. You didn’t get that car yourself so you can’t boast about it.

*“What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?” *- James 2 14

If I have given you the gift of a car to come see me and you don’t drive it to me … how can that gift suffice as the visit we want?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Previously, you stated: “Hope brings us to faith. Faith brings us to love. Love brings us to God.”

So, since everyone is endowed with hope (according to you), then everyone should be brought to faith, love, and God.

I cannot tell if you are being difficult to get through to on purpose.

No, I distinctly pointed out that some people refuse the gift of hope. Lacking hope, they have no reason to be led to faith, and lacking faith, they have no reason to be led to the love of God.

Hope is initially a gift, a grace; but hope must be cultivated as a virtue. That is in our power.

 

[madera]

I cannot tell if you are being difficult to get through to on purpose.

No, I distinctly pointed out that some people refuse the gift of hope. Lacking hope, they have no reason to be led to faith, and lacking faith, they have no reason to be led to the love of God.

Hope is initially a gift, a grace; but hope must be cultivated as a virtue. That is in our power.

what this discussion is missing is, it is not the person that refuse to understand it is the entity within that is doing the refuseing is not the person.

stop listening to it and stop judjing the person.
When Jesus was tempted in the desert, he did not go along with it and ordered it to leave. He recognized it was the demon that tried to tempt Him. We all have one In us just waiting to mislead us.

 

[Thorns]

By my generosity I have given you a car so you can come to me. You didn’t get that car yourself so you can’t boast about it.

*“What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?” *- James 2 14

If I have given you the gift of a car to come see me and you don’t drive it to me … how can that gift suffice as the visit we want?

So in other words, GRACE is a gift while FAITH is one’s choice to what they will do with that grace.

As you said earlier, there were those that saw God. What a gift that was. However, they still had the choice to follow Him or to not follow Him.

 

[madera]

So in other words, GRACE is a gift while FAITH is one’s choice to what they will do with that grace.

As you said earlier, there were those that saw God. What a gift that was. However, they still had the choice to follow Him or to not follow Him.

no they did’nt have a choice.

 

[fhansen]

Faith itself is the capacity to “accept.” So, your argument that grace is required to accept the gift of faith simply begs the question: Is the faith, necessary to accept the gift of grace to accept the gift of faith, a gift?

Either I am freely given the grace and faith to accept the gift of salvation, or else salvation is not really a free gift at all. It is something I must work for and therefore it is something, that once achieved, I can boast about…“look here…I am a good person because I have achieved grace in the sight of God…but you are an evil person because you have not.”

Nope. It’s not either/or, but both/and. We can’t be saved without God but He chooses not to save us without us. He throws the life preserver, but we must still grab onto it. Because He wants our wills involved. Augustine put it this way:
But he who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.” (St. Augustine’s Sermon 169, 13)

We can reject the gift.