Is faith a work?--An apparent point of disagreement between Catholics and WELS Lutherans

[JonNC]

But that’s what I’m wondering; how is 3) correct? It seems like the one-sided free will situation again. Did God make an exception to both sides of the free will coin? Did He take away half of our will in the New Testament? That’s what I’m having trouble understanding.

But that’s the difficulty (and somewhat off the subject, I apologize): what do we “get” by doing required good works? If we repent of our sin of not doing good works regularly and still obtain salvation, what difference does it make? If it does make a difference, then we do cooperate with God toward our salvation.

As another poster said, we do not view good works as something we do for God, nor are they something we do for ourselves. If I am doing good works out of a selfish motive (how can I benefit from this?), is it really good works, afterall?

We do good works because Christ tells us to love God with our whole heart, etc. (follow His commands), and our neighbor as ourselves. It is our neighbors who benefit from our good works (care for the least of His children).

Repeatedly asking forgiveness for anything with the intent of continuing in that sin is not sincere confession. Luther said, “[There is]… no forgiveness without renewal of life…”.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

As I already pointed out, both gain and loss of faith are brought about by our participation. We gain faith through good works of love including humble obedience, gratitude, compassion, … We fail to gain and even lose faith because of pride, arrogance, …

I would be reluctant to say we gain faith as a result of our participation. I would be willing to agree that we grow in faith which we have already received by grace, at least in part as a result of our participation (sanctification).

Jon

 

[Pitcharan]

I would be reluctant to say we gain faith as a result of our participation.

Are you saying that for no good reason our Lord took the trouble of showcasing humble gentiles (the Centurion in Matt 8 and the Canaanite woman with a demon-posessed daughter in Matt 15) and praising them for their faith. It is a clear teaching that our humility will gain for us faith. In fact our Lord makes this crystal clear in His response to the disciples’ request for increasing their faith:***The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” *** He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, … So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’ " (Lk 17:5-10)

I would be willing to agree that we grow in faith which we have already received by grace, at least in part as a result of our participation (sanctification).

The faith of the Jews though received by grace (circumcision), was in fact gained because of Abraham’s humble obedience. He gained it for them and they either lost or retained it by their pride or humility. I don’t think there is a need to differentiate between the intial faith through grace and its later growth through good works. Why would our Lord repeatedly snub the Jews for boasting of their origin from Abraham and applaud the faith of the gentiles?

 

[JonNC]

=Pitcharan;7119348]Are you saying that for no good reason our Lord took the trouble of showcasing humble gentiles (the Centurion in Matt 8 and the Canaanite woman with a demon-posessed daughter in Matt 15) and praising them for their faith. It is a clear teaching that our humility will gain for us faith. In fact our Lord makes this crystal clear in His response to the disciples’ request for increasing their faith:***The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” *** He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, … So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’ " (Lk 17:5-10)

No. I am saying faith comes by Grace. The examples you site are the acts of those who had faith, by grace. The rest indicates this.

The faith of the Jews though received by grace (circumcision), was in fact gained because of Abraham’s humble obedience. He gained it for them and they either lost or retained it by their pride or humility. I don’t think there is a need to differentiate between the intial faith through grace and its later growth through good works. Why would our Lord repeatedly snub the Jews for boasting of their origin from Abraham and applaud the faith of the gentiles?

It was a distinction between Gospel and works.

Are you equating “gained” with “increased”? If so, I agree. If you are equating “gained” with “earning”, I do not.

Jon

 

[GaryTaylor]

As I already pointed out, both gain and loss of faith are brought about by our participation. We gain faith through good works of love including humble obedience, gratitude, compassion, … We fail to gain and even lose faith because of pride, arrogance, …

The Arrogant man once said to the Priest. “Why should I Pray Father, I have everything in the world I could possibly want and I long for nothing”. And the Priest replied, “Then why not pray for humility.”

The path of of pride and arrogance in one of Self. Self is who we as individuals must conquer. Once we conquer self then pure faith in God remains, and anything is then possible through our connection of Church etc.

Anyway

Faith is a infused supernatural imposed virtue each of us receive at the moment of Baptism. This doesn’t pave the path to heaven its merely the first sacrement and the first step on the true path. And many don’t understand their obligation to preserve this.

The basis of salvation is Faith. It is impossible to please God without faith. faith alone is not enough though, but its absolutly needed for salvation. if we lose our faith, we cannot be saved unless its regained.

Its a Grace from God. Yet many Catholics believe they can do good on their own. Or any Good we have is not through the grace of God. It would be easier to live without oxygen than to do good without Grace.

Many Catholics don’t understand our total dependence on Grace for any goodness we have and that we depend on it from instant to instant.

Thus we must constantly connect our faith to God through various means. Prayer, Church, understanding and rising above self. The Bible, the writings of the Saints and the Blessed Mother intercession all play important roles in the guidence of the Soul. And the Blessing becomes mulitplied as the Faith does.

Thus the idea begining to model oneself after Christ. All theabove moves one in this direction in a very real supernatural way.

God Bless,

 

[PJM]

=Trebor135;7106701]At a WELS Lutheran Bible study yesterday, the question of how faith is created and sustained came up. I was told that (1) God’s grace, through baptism and the Holy Spirit, creates faith; and (2) that one cannot assent through the will or intellect to believe in God (who is too big for us to comprehend and thus to accept), but that it is thanks solely to Him that this faith is sustained; but (3) that one can assent through the will and intellect to reject God. In other words, gaining faith is not something we play a part in, but losing faith definitely takes our participation. We can use free will against God, but not for Him.

John Martignoni of the Bible Christian Society, in Issue #140 of his “Apologetics for the Masses” newsletter, points to John 6:27-29 as evidence from the Bible that faith is a work:

“Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life…Then they said to Him, ‘What must we do to be doing the works of God?’ Jesus answered them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in Him Whom He has sent.’”

Does this seem like a good passage to bring up in response to this Lutheran doctrine? After all, if one can only reject God, how can Jesus tell us to actively do something–believing in Him–when this is impossible for us to do as a result of our fallen nature. Are there other passages that make the same point clearly and concisely? Have I misunderstood anything about this passage or any aspect of Catholic or WELS Lutheran teaching in this area? Is one at risk of wandering into the Pelagian heresy by claiming that humans can perform a work–belief in Christ–to gain or merit, in some way, entry into heaven?

FAITH IS ALWAYS A FREE GIFT FROM GOD. IT CAN BE PRAYERD FOR BUT NOT “EARNED.”

Eph.2: [8] “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --”

 

[Newbie2]

I think Luther did play with it a bit in Bondage of the Will, but the important thing to remember is that it is not Luther who determines Lutheran doctrine, but scripture as rightly reflected by the Lutheran confessions. I am bound, as a Lutheran, to scripture and the confessions, not Luther the man.

Yes, of course. Good point. I don’t think Luther would recognize present day Lutheranism…well, maybe LCMS, but certainly he’s roll over in his grave over some of the ELCA churches decisions of late.

I don’t think the Lutheran view is that of regarding accepting, but as receiving. Once received, we have the free will to reject.

Begs the question, then, if we have the will to decline to receive, no?

If one wishes to refer to what follows receiving faith as accepting the responsibility of responding to that gift of grace, that is, participating in our sanctification, ok.

So close, Jon, you’re so close to Catholic theology…can’t you just taste it?

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=Newbie2;7125518]
Yes, of course. Good point. I don’t think Luther would recognize present day Lutheranism…well, maybe LCMS, but certainly he’s roll over in his grave over some of the ELCA churches decisions of late.

Spinning in his grave, more likely. Some things I think Luther would not recognize are, failure to provide the Sacrament regularly (in some parts of Lutheranism), lack of reverence of the reserved Sacraments (in some), sporatic use of private confession.

Begs the question, then, if we have the will to decline to receive, no?

I think it is essentially the same thing.

So close, Jon, you’re so close to Catholic theology…can’t you just taste it?

Interesting. My personal view of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification is that it does state the closeness of our theologies, but there are Lutherans and Catholics both who scoff at that.

Jon

 

[Newbie2]

Spinning in his grave, more likely. Some things I think Luther would not recognize are, failure to provide the Sacrament regularly (in some parts of Lutheranism), lack of reverence of the reserved Sacraments (in some), sporatic use of private confession.

I think it is essentially the same thing.

I agree. See, you and I can work out this Lutheran-Catholic split thingy. Who needs committees and counsels?

Interesting. My personal view of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification is that it does state the closeness of our theologies, but there are Lutherans and Catholics both who scoff at that.

Jon

I think many want huge steps toward unity rather than the baby step(s) that are the JDDJ, and wouldn’t be satisfied with anything else. Personally, I think the JDDJ is a rather watered down document, not really changing anything, but at the same time it is a small step in the right direction.

 

[JonNC]

I think many want huge steps toward unity rather than the baby step(s) that are the JDDJ, and wouldn’t be satisfied with anything else. Personally, I think the JDDJ is a rather watered down document, not really changing anything, but at the same time it is a small step in the right direction.

I think the document is more substantal than watered down. That said, it only goes so far. But you and I agree. It is a starting place, something that wasn’t there for 450 years, and I thank God for it.

Jon

 

[Newbie2]

I think about that movie “What about Bob” with Bill Murray…

Baby steps…baby steps…

 

[Pitcharan]

FAITH IS ALWAYS A FREE GIFT FROM GOD. IT CAN BE PRAYERD FOR BUT NOT “EARNED.”

Eph.2: [8] “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --”

You are misreading the quote. Salvation (being saved) is the gift and not ‘faith’. Faith must be earned and this is made crystal clear by our Lord in His response to this specific question. Nothing can be clearer than Luke 17:5-10, which also happens to be last Sunday;s gospel reading.

 

[Newbie2]

You are misreading the quote. Salvation (being saved) is the gift and not ‘faith’. Faith must be earned and this is made crystal clear by our Lord in His response to this specific question. Nothing can be clearer than Luke 17:5-10, which also happens to be last Sunday;s gospel reading.

Bzzzt. Catholic theology does not teach that Faith must be earned.

 

[JonNC]

Bzzzt. Catholic theology does not teach that Faith must be earned.

Thanks for saying it. It sounds better coming from you, than me.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Dr. Leo Marvin!! Dr. Leo Marvin!!

I think about that movie “What about Bob” with Bill Murray…

Baby steps…baby steps…

 

[Pitcharan]

Bzzzt. Catholic theology does not teach that Faith must be earned.

An irresponsible post. You talk of what Catholic Theology does not teach but cannot say what it teaches. Obviously you are NO expert on Catholic Theology. I have merely clarified Luke 17:5-10 and it will be good to confine our debate to this and leave theology to theologians.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I find the verbage used here to be inaccurate and more irresponsible than anything. “Earned” is a poor choice of words. A better word should be “maintained.” Faith is a free gift of God, a precious pearl, and we must maintain it, cultivate it, nurture it, hold on to it, and try to demonstrate our faith to God. We don’t earn it. It’s a free gift from God, the sibling of grace, that changes our lives. Saying we “earn” it somehow implies our own human virtue or goodness or ego warrants it and we somehow deserve it. Untrue. If “earn” (which I still say is lousy semantics) means “maintain” through good works, that is a pill I could swallow better. The catechism 1814-1816 helps clarify the discussion. Blessings to all.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I find the verbage used here to be inaccurate and more irresponsible than anything. “Earned” is a poor choice of words. A better word should be “maintained.” Faith is a free gift of God, a precious pearl, and we must maintain it, cultivate it, nurture it, hold on to it, and try to demonstrate our faith to God. We don’t earn it. It’s a free gift from God, the sibling of grace, that changes our lives. Saying we “earn” it somehow implies our own human virtue or goodness or ego warrants it and we somehow deserve it. Untrue. If “earn” (which I still say is lousy semantics) means “maintain” through good works, that is a pill I could swallow better. The catechism 1814-1816 helps clarify the discussion. Blessings to all.

 

[Pitcharan]

I find the verbage used here to be inaccurate and more irresponsible than anything. “Earned” is a poor choice of words. A better word should be “maintained.” Faith is a free gift of God, a precious pearl, and we must maintain it, cultivate it, nurture it, hold on to it, and try to demonstrate our faith to God. We don’t earn it. It’s a free gift from God, the sibling of grace, that changes our lives. Saying we “earn” it somehow implies our own human virtue or goodness or ego warrants it and we somehow deserve it. Untrue. If “earn” (which I still say is lousy semantics) means “maintain” through good works, that is a pill I could swallow better. The catechism 1814-1816 helps clarify the discussion. Blessings to all.

Unwarranted ugly bickerings. You would do better to read Luke 17:5-10 and learn what our Lord said about how to increase faith

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Unwarranted ugly bickerings? Strange choice of words, Pitch. I am fully aware of the mustard seed reference and faith in Luke. I don’t need to look it up. Some of us around here know Scripture without you pointing it out. And by the way, Our Lord doesn’t tell us HOW to increase our faith in Luke 17:5-10.

My Catholic bible, interestingly enough, has this footnote for your Scriptural reference here:

“These sayings of Jesus…remind them (the Apostles) that Christian disciples can make no claim on God’s graciousness; in fulfilling the exacting demands of discipleship, they are only doing their duty.”

Hardly a reference for “earning” one’s faith.

Faith, like grace, is a gift. It’s plain as day here. It’s something to be maintained, nurtured, cultivated, and done as a duty. It says it right there.

Unwarranted ugly bickerings. You would do better to read Luke 17:5-10 and learn what our Lord said about how to increase faith