Maybe I’d better get my money back from the Seminary where I’m working on my master’s degree in Theology.
You are delibrately digressing from the topic by talking about what the CC does not teach. How does that in any way nullify what I am saying based on Luke 17:5-10. I am convinced that Faith has to be earned through “humility” and have even published my thoughts after having it reviewed by leading theologians from the CC. My thoughts are in no way contrary to what the CC teaches. You are baselessly opposing it by making a vague statement that the CC never taught it. If CC had taught it I would have merely quoted the relevant CCC document and would not have taken pains to explain how “faith” is earned through “humility”
Take a look at your own choice of words first.
Your empty boast means nothing. If you understood something different from Luke 17:5-10, you are free to do so. That does not make my view in any way “lousy”.I am fully aware of the mustard seed reference and faith in Luke. I don’t need to look it up. Some of us around here know Scripture without you pointing it out.And by the way, Our Lord doesn’t tell us HOW to increase our faith in Luke 17:5-10. My Catholic bible, interestingly enough, has this footnote for your Scriptural reference here:
“These sayings of Jesus…remind them (the Apostles) that Christian disciples can make no claim on God’s graciousness; in fulfilling the exacting demands of discipleship, they are only doing their duty.”
Hardly a reference for “earning” one’s faith.
Faith, like grace, is a gift. It’s plain as day here. It’s something to be maintained, nurtured, cultivated, and done as a duty. It says it right there.
Calm down. Please soften your tone.
There is one element of this definition that is not addressed, and that is that people also have faith without God. This being the case, we know that the ability to have and exercise faith is part of our human condition. People can choose to place their faith in power, money, military might, politics, drugs, gangs, etc, etc. These carnal uses of our faith demonstrate that faith belongs to a person, somewhat like his hands, feet, mind, soul, and emotions.
God gives sufficient grace to all men so that they can actively respond to Him.
I think merit is a commonly misunderstood concept with regard to our evangelical brethren. The term “merit” that is translated from the Latin corresponds to the Gk for “reward”. These works that are done in and through us by God’s grace benefit us, and his Kindgom. “Merit” can best be understood as the concept that we are responsible to bear the fruit that is worthy of repentance.
Heb 4:2
Faith can be kindled by Grace, but it is not necessarily. That is why people can put their faith into other things besides God.
The newbie is correct, and not irresponsible. Faith is a component of our human constitution. When we place our faith in God, it meets with Grace, resulting in salvation. Our faith is perfected through our works. When we exercise our faith, it increases, like a muscle. Faith also comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Our faith is built up by the Word, and by the exercise of it. We can build ourselves up on our faith. Faith can be fanned into flame, and it can be lost, or misplaced.
Yes, any post where it says “The Newbie is correct…” IS flawlessly and succinctly stated.
I don’t disagree with any of this. The key phrase is - “when stirred by Grace”. IOW, Grace happens first. We cannot come to faith of our own will or actions. This is where I took issue with the word “gained”.
I agree with this, too. Like the term “pray”, “faith” can have more than one meaning. Of course, the kinds of things other than God that people put their “faith” in are things of this world. That fact that people put their faith in these things is evidence of our human state, our fallen, sinful condition, bound to sin and death, and only saved by Grace.
LOL I needed that!Yes, any post where it says “The Newbie is correct…” IS flawlessly and succinctly stated.
Yes. I think this point is well clarified in the JD
It is true that people put their faith in worldly things, but that is not all. Some put them in supernatural as well. I know some Pagans who worship the elemental spirits of the universe, and I have even met some staunch Satanists, who believe that their service to the devil is to make the lives of Christians miserable.I agree with this, too. Like the term “pray”, “faith” can have more than one meaning. Of course, the kinds of things other than God that people put their “faith” in are things of this world. That fact that people put their faith in these things is evidence of our human state, our fallen, sinful condition, bound to sin and death, and only saved by Grace.
Jon
Yes, any post where it says “The Newbie is correct…” IS flawlessly and succinctly stated.
Ok fine I am sorry for that reaction. First let me explain my reaction and then my post. When you responded by stating that Catholic Theology does not teach what I wrote, it reminded me of the Jews who rejected Jesus saying that nothing good can come from Nazareth / Galilee. I felt that you did not care to consider my view on merit, but were rejecting it by merely saying that CC never tatught this. Once again, I clarify that you were right in saying that CC did not teach what I said.Calm down. Please soften your tone. I’m trying to understand what you’re saying. Look at what you wrote:
You are baselessly opposing it by making a vague statement that the CC never taught it. *If CC had taught it I would have merely quoted the relevant CCC document *and would not have taken pains to explain how “faith” is earned through "humility
On one hand you chide me for saying that the Catholic Church “never taught it”, then say that “If the CC had taught it…”
By saying “If the CC had taught it…” (that you would have quoted her), aren’t you saying that she never taught it, which is what I’m saying???
I’m confused at what you’re angry about.
I don’t think it is inconsistent with Catholic Theology and I invite you to read my posts # 2, 11 & 23 on this thread and then specify what is contrary if any
If I have sounded admonishing, then I am sorry for it. Now coming to the Lucan scipture (Lk 17:5-10), this is how I understand it:
As you claim, if** we cannot come to faith of our own will or actions**, then all that was commanded of us to believe or put our faith in God, becomes meaningless.
