Is Faith Rational?

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Hey, I would like you guys could help me with this one:

Is faith rational? I mean, can we say that our faith is rational? And it has rational basis?

Or it is irrational?

Thanks
 
Hey, I would like you guys could help me with this one:

Is faith rational? I mean, can we say that our faith is rational? And it has rational basis?

Or it is irrational?

Thanks
Do you mean the existence of God? The existence and divinity of Jesus Christ? The truth of the Catholic Church?

Rational arguments for the existence of God go back at least 2500 years. There are quite a few such arguments.
 
The Catholic Faith is rational in a philosophic sense, with the possible exception of the Trinity, which even Aquinas struggled to represent within a philosophic framework. That doesn’t necessarily mean the Trinity is irrational - we may simply lack sufficient philosophic tools and insight to represent it.

The natural sciences (chemistry, physics, etc) are concerned with natural things (things of nature), and we cannot put God (who is supernatural, or beyond the natural) into a scientific box. However, the ideas of superposition and entanglement in quantum physics may help us understand the Trinity a little better.
 
Certain elements of the faith are rational in that they are confirmed by reason. Other parts of the faith are non-rational in that they go beyond what human reason can know. No portion of the faith is irrational; which would mean it is opposed to what we know by reason.🙂
 
Is faith rational? I mean, can we say that our faith is rational? And it has rational basis?

Or it is irrational?
It can be irrational to have faith. If reality contradicts something you believe and you continue to believe it, that’s irrational. If you have to really try to believe something - like if the only reason you believe it is because someone says so, not because it makes sense to you, then that could be said to be irrational. It just depends though on the specific belief you are talking about. Cuz not everything is irrational. There is just a big potential for it when you place a lot of emphasis on faith.
 
It can be irrational to have faith. If reality contradicts something you believe and you continue to believe it, that’s irrational. If you have to really try to believe something - like if the only reason you believe it is because someone says so, not because it makes sense to you, then that could be said to be irrational. It just depends though on the specific belief you are talking about. Cuz not everything is irrational. There is just a big potential for it when you place a lot of emphasis on faith.
Even then if you have rational reason to trust the authority, it is not irrational but rather non rational.
 
The point is, How can we say that faith is rational if it is based on something that it was not proven yet? Like we believe in God, but God was not yet proven that he exist, but how can we still explain that our belief is rational?

I’ve heard that it Must be Rational, because if it was Irrational then God would have given us an artifact to reach him that is in fact Irrational, so it Must be Rational, because Faith must support the other gift God gave us, the Reason is that right?
 
The point is, How can we say that faith is rational if it is based on something that it was not proven yet? Like we believe in God, but God was not yet proven that he exist, but how can we still explain that our belief is rational?

I’ve heard that it Must be Rational, because if it was Irrational then God would have given us an artifact to reach him that is in fact Irrational, so it Must be Rational, because Faith must support the other gift God gave us, the Reason is that right?
There are a number of philosophical proofs of God’s existence. With these proofs, if valid, if you accept the premises the conclusion must follow.

Try Peter Kreeft’s site for a sampling.

Try William Lane Craig’s site (Protestant, so don’t look for Catholic stuff there).

Try Edward Feser’s blog and books.

Note that the Catholic Church teaches dogmatically that one can know of the existence of God through natural reason alone. That’s a pretty strong claim!

What you will find if you dig is that it is the theistic position that is rational, and the atheistic position that is irrational, not conforming to reason. This comes as a shock to most theists, and to all atheists. 😃

And consider this. If a person does not believe in God, then they must believe in some other cause or agent for the existence of the universe. Do they have proof for THAT cause or agent?
 
Hey, I would like you guys could help me with this one:

Is faith rational? I mean, can we say that our faith is rational? And it has rational basis?

Or it is irrational?

Thanks
It was given to us by the Blessed Trinity. You can’t get more rational than that ! Don’t pay any attention to the skeptics and the loud noises from non-believers. Read the Catechism and study your faith. Learn it, love it, live it. That is all you have to do. Linus2nd
 
The point is, How can we say that faith is rational if it is based on something that it was not proven yet? Like we believe in God, but God was not yet proven that he exist, but how can we still explain that our belief is rational?

I’ve heard that it Must be Rational, because if it was Irrational then God would have given us an artifact to reach him that is in fact Irrational, so it Must be Rational, because Faith must support the other gift God gave us, the Reason is that right?
It’s a question of definition: which definition of rational are you using? Which definition of proof?

If you are saying that rational means something like “that which can be proven through our perceptual senses or with aids to them,” then what you really mean is *empirical. *Rational is that which can be understood by our reason, which (unfortunately) some philosophers decided was limited to our sense perceptions… it’s a mess, for sure.

But really, our rationality is not limited to what we perceive with our 5 senses. We can know that rationally, by understanding that we can reason about things which we do not perceive with our 5 senses, like love. We understand certain things about the world which we cannot perceive with our senses, and part of that is called “common sense,” like when we understand that you cannot get more from less.

Same goes for proof. Are you saying that God, a non-material Being, must prove His existence through our 5 senses? Obviously that won’t work, anymore than proving the existence of love between two people.

So, actually God has proven His Existence to us; He just didn’t prove it in a scientific proof kind of way. He is not measurable or perceivable.

But He has shown Himself to people: Abraham, Moses, etc. And He sent His Son to us. And Aristotle shows that we can understand quite a bit about God without Revelation.

Is the existence of Cleopatra proved to you? And yet you only know of her through the writings from history. Why trust those sources but not trust sources telling us about Christ?
 
The point is, How can we say that faith is rational if it is based on something that it was not proven yet?
The proofs for God must be philosophical, not scientific.

St. Thomas Aquanias formulated five philosophical proofs, a nice summary of which can be found here. I will cite the first (the Unmoved Mover):

The First Way: Argument from Motion
  • Our senses prove that some things are in motion.
  • Things move when potential motion becomes actual motion.
  • Only an actual motion can convert a potential motion into an actual motion.
  • Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect (i.e., if both actual and potential, it is actual in one respect and potential in another).
  • Therefore nothing can move itself.
  • Therefore each thing in motion is moved by something else.
  • The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum.
  • Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.
This is a classic philosophical proof, which relies on logic and reason instead of scientific instruments.
 
I decided to examine this topic by first asking myself the question, “Is faith irrational?” I think a good way of defining an irrational belief is one that contains a logical fallacy. Therefore, if a faith-based belief displays one or more logical fallacies, then I think it could be concluded that the specific aspect of faith being examined is not rational.

Along these lines, I believe in all the various doctrines of the Catholic Church, much of which is based on faith and beyond the capacity of science to prove or disprove. But on the other hand, these doctrines do not contain any logical fallacies, so I would say that belief in them is rational.
 
Hey, I would like you guys could help me with this one:

Is faith rational? I mean, can we say that our faith is rational? And it has rational basis?

Or it is irrational?

Thanks
:twocents:

for what it’s worth,
I would not be Catholic if It weren’t true

But what started me on this path to Christ was beauty,
and what clinched it was Love.
So, I won’t even try to explain any of It.

He is what makes all understandable,
and it is His word that we understand.

The scientism heresy that has arisen from Christian roots
and is so prevalent in modern secular society
is what is truly irrational.
Here one sees the mind, caged by its illusions:
imposing on the divine, the spiritual
an order belonging to the natural/ the physical
an order unsuited for a world that transcends creation.
Its reductionistic transformations of the sublime to the mundane
prevent the mind from soaring to its Source.
 
Hey, I would like you guys could help me with this one:

Is faith rational? I mean, can we say that our faith is rational? And it has rational basis?

Or it is irrational?

Thanks
Personally, I didn’t reason myself to faith. I would not say, therefore, that the basis of my own faith is a rational one. But, having said that I think faith can be rationally defended, and is not contrary to reason. So, for me, faith is rational but does not necessarily have a rational basis, if you see the distinction.
 
I do not speak of “1+1=2” as being a matter of faith. I know rationally that 1+1=2! If faith=to know rationally (which it does not) then why have an extra superfluous word?
I know many things without rational syllogisms. For example,that I am conscious,that I am experiencing red or pain or whatever.
 
Hey, I would like you guys could help me with this one:

Is faith rational? I mean, can we say that our faith is rational? And it has rational basis?

Or it is irrational?

Thanks
Do you have faith in the mechanic’s work, that fixed your brakes on your car when you step on the brake pedal approaching a busy intersection, that you won’t cost out into crossing traffic?

Then why is it that so many see faith as otherwise, when it is as simple as that?

Faith isn’t a religion, one places one’s faith in a religion, or a system of belief. And that is why christians get the argument that their faith is irrational. Because its true, when christians say religion is faith, they are incorrect. Your religion isn’t your faith, you place you faith in a religion, if that’s what you are doing. All Jesus required, of anyone, for anyone to receive of Him, was that they placed their faith in Him.
 
Faith is not irrational. It is supra-rational. Faith is giving assent to a truth that is not rationally demonstrable beyond a shadow of doubt. All faith, no matter how certain, is subject to the temptation to doubt, whereas certainty is never subject to doubt. I know that I exist without ever being able to doubt it for a second. I know that God exists, but I am capable of doubting God’s existence because I am not God.
 
Faith is not irrational. It is supra-rational. Faith is giving assent to a truth that is not rationally demonstrable beyond a shadow of doubt. All faith, no matter how certain, is subject to the temptation to doubt, whereas certainty is never subject to doubt. I know that I exist without ever being able to doubt it for a second. I know that God exists, but I am capable of doubting God’s existence because I am not God.
When Adam and Eve placed their faith (trusted, believed) in what the serpent said, where they giving assent to a truth, or where they giving assent to a lie?

Just because one places their faith in something, said or heard doesn’t make it the Truth, does it? Faith doesn’t control what is true, or Truth. The Truth is the Truth no matter what the Truth is. And needs no one’s faith to be the Truth.
 
See the OP first. Foundations, by definition have no rational basis. They are brute facts.
 
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