Is female masturbation intrinsically disordered?

[nfinke]

Just so we’re clear though, something doesn’t need to harm anyone to be immoral? Because that was the argument you made that I was addressing. “Threatening” someone’s belongings (though I imagine you’d need to be pretty deep in your covetousness for that to happen) doesn’t harm them. Especially since coveting typically happens internally so they likely don’t even know about it.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Threatening another person is harmful to them, if not physically then psychologically. Even if the other party does not know you are coveting their possessions, you are obsessed with others’ property and that can very well lead to threats and behaviors apart from depriving you from paying attention to your own affairs.

 

[Searching1]

Pride, anger, lust, envy, gluttony, avarice, sloth…
The seven deadly sins. These don’t necessarily harm others.
They are states of mind and heart and sometimes reactions we have.
Sometimes they can lead to other grave sins being committed, sometimes not. But they are sins because as disciples we are supposed to be working to bring the Kingdom of God here and loving our neighbors as ourselves; bearing our crosses patiently. Not doing so is a sin not because God is waiting to “get us” but because our internal state is vital to our ability to be true witnesses.

 

[TK421]

Cruciferi:

The Church has been pretty clear on the matter. Masturbation, male or female, is a sin.

I thought the same thing the OP did in the past. The differences between the two made it confusing as no seed is spilled, it is just an orgasm. But Male or female, sexual pleasure outside of marriage and outside of the unitive, procreative purposes is immoral.

But even then, the intention is what actually matters. A healthy male will occasionally have emissions but that in itself doesn’t mean anything in terms of guilt, although in the old law he would need to cleanse himself before going to temple.

In the case of Onan there was intent.

 

[nfinke]

No I’m definitely going to say threats that another person is not even aware of by definition do not harm them. I can’t harm someone else with my thoughts.

Actions that may possibly arise from immoral thoughts are likely to be immoral, and even harming to others, but they are a separate issue. God didn’t say “coveting can lead to bad things”, He said “don’t covet”.

 

[Inquiry]

And the proper time and place for the use of the generative organs is in the marital embrace. That there is a drive to use them otherwise means no more than that there is a drive to eat someone else’s food.

 

[Vico]

…

Sin it is in the heart.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

2519 The “pure in heart” are promised that they will see God face to face and be like him.312 Purity of heart is the precondition of the vision of God. Even now it enables us to see according to God, to accept others as “neighbors”; it lets us perceive the human body - ours and our neighbor’s - as a temple of the Holy Spirit, a manifestation of divine beauty.

2539 Envy is a capital sin. It refers to the sadness at the sight of another’s goods and the immoderate desire to acquire them for oneself, even unjustly. When it wishes grave harm to a neighbor it is a mortal sin: …

2540 Envy represents a form of sadness and therefore a refusal of charity; …

 

[meltzerboy2]

And why do you think G-d said do not covet? Could it be because coveting can lead to bad behavior, and might it not also mean that you are focusing not on giving thanks for what you have and improving your own abilities and skills in your life, but rather on what another has and has worked hard for? As the Talmud teaches us: “Who is rich? He who is content with his own share.”

 

[Searching1]

The moderating of activities already deemed harmless is not the key issue, though. Murdering people in moderation doesn’t matter because of the gravity of that act - it doesn’t matter if one moderates their murderings. It matters what the action is ordered towards. Consuming alcohol is ordered toward enjoyment. It becomes gluttonous when we overindulge.

Stimulating our genitals to the point of orgasm on our own or outside of the conjugal act is not what such stimulation is ordered towards, which is procreation.

I have all kinds of strong impulses, but what the 60’s did was to (supposedly) remove the gravity of the act from the act itself. But masturnation is a grave sin because of its effects on the mind and soul for sure, but also because it is not the proper use of that faculty.

 

[nfinke]

I mean I don’t claim to know God, but I’m pretty sure He said “do not covet” for the same reason he said “do not commit adultery”. Because doing so is a sin. I mean you can try and rationalize the commandment, but it remains a commandment. Again, He doesn’t say “don’t let covetousness lead you to sin”, He says “do not covet”. Does that not by definition make covetousness intrinsically sinful (contrary to the will of God), regardless on where you go from there?

 

[Vico]

So, unlike a man, I don’t see a masturbating woman as committing an act that is intrinsically ordered towards reproduction, and then robbing it of it’s purpose.

It is discorded since it is reserved only for the mutual self-giving in marriage. Therefore, even the willful intention to do it is grave matter.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

 

[meltzerboy2]

If something is intrinsically sinful, there must be a reason for its being so. That reason (for Judaism) is connected to moral behavior, rather than morality alone as an abstract concept. The Ten Commandments, which are further detailed by the written and oral Torah, are meant as a guide to living a moral life in one’s everyday social interactions with others. They are not designed to be a philosophical treatise on the human condition but a practical guide toward leading a life of meaning, purpose, and substance. If G-d told us not to kill (murder), there is a social reason for this; the same for the other prohibitions as well as the commandments regarding what we should do and not omit doing. The intrinsic gravity of behaviors is connected to the extrinsic morality of behaviors.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Masturbation is a totally natural human biological drive and common to both sexes. There is absolutely nothing intrinsically disordered about it except according to certain religious beliefs.

Please put a disclaimer that you’re not Catholic before sharing such opinions, lest they lead others to believe this is an acceptable view for a Catholic to hold.

 

[meltzerboy2]

You are correct. Not everyone knows, or checks, that I am Jewish, not Catholic. I will do what you suggest.

 

[TK421]

The argument that it is a “natural drive” is really, really poorly thought out. Masturbation is extremely common so that tends to make people lazy in defending it. Do you know how many counterexamples I could give where “natural drive” in various circumstances would be evil? I couldn’t fit them all in a book.

Besides, in Church teaching, the drive in itself isn’t evil. It is how it is used, which isn’t different from any other sphere of life, really. The main issue here is that people don’t want to hear or think about it too deeply because they want to be their own master and their own god. Lust, like any other sin, is linked to the chief sin of pride.

 

[rosejmj]

There doesn’t seem to be any reasons based on natural law or reason. It’s all because the Catholic Church said so and said you aren’t allowed to experience sexual pleasure outside sex. It’s not going to convince many people outside the Church

 

[po18guy]

The genitalia (think: genesis) of both sexes are known - even medically/scientifically as the “reproductive system” not the “feel good” or “pleasure system.”

 

[TK421]

There doesn’t seem to be any reasons based on natural law or reason. It’s all because the Catholic Church said so and said you aren’t allowed to experience sexual pleasure outside sex. It’s not going to convince many people outside the Church

1. It’s not “all because the Catholic Church said so” and I’m pretty sure you already know that. The subject of sex & marriage & family has been written about very extensively. You are welcome to express other opinions but this statement is disingenuous.
2. It convinces plenty of people. To say nothing of what is happening outside the USA, the CC has made a lot of progress in parts of the country that have traditionally been extremely protestant and part of the reason is because people are realizing a lack of clear instruction on these subjects. The sexual revolution is also leaving people lonely and used and exhausted.

 

[Nicene]

Personally I think this pretty much covers it:

1 Cor 6:18 Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body.
19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own;
20you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Searching1]

There doesn’t seem to be any reasons based on natural law or reason. It’s all because the Catholic Church said so and said you aren’t allowed to experience sexual pleasure outside sex. It’s not going to convince many people outside the Church

It is tragic the way in which many in Western Democracies have reduced religion to merely a system of prohibition instead of liberation.

Irreligious Westerners will, in the same breathe decry the Church and then proceed to list all their personal problems - the cure for which, secular society prescribes ever more pleasure and entertainment; the healing balm of TV, junk food, alcohol, sex, shopping, etc.

Natural Law is the same as “common sense” and its principles do not exclusively stem from theology or Christianity or religion. Thinkers and philosophers and statesmen applied its tenets to every sphere of society for a long time.