Is file sharing a sin?

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Also, viewing something at your Grandma’s house is considered private along with personal use. But when someone puts it online for public use, now you have crossed the line. I have to agree with Ed again, too many people making excuses for their actions.
 
So by using these copyrighted files for free we are depriving the producers of money,…
If you can afford, then you are depriving… and not we. Please don’t generalise.
I have said this before and I will say it again. There are people who can’t afford to buy these things and hence won’t buy. And hence aren’t depriving anyone from his/her money.
 
…Nothing is the price anyone can afford.
I think you are being naive here. Have you ever been to a third world country?
Do you think most people in third world countries can afford to buy DVDs or buy musics from an online store?

I know one can get an mp3 song for $0.99 ~ $1. Do you know the number of people living under a dollar per day?

Do you know how much just one of the products of an Adobe Creative Suite costs?

If you do know all the above, then you will probably understand why some people rely on file sharing + freeware (when applicable).

You guys seem to just be interested in your business and that’s all
 
Not at all. It is the truth. You asked a question - I stated the truth.
Some people do not want to hear the truth, but are looking for other people to confirm their actions. And when someone points out the truth, the messenger gets shot.
 
I agree with Ed. Also, straight from the link provided by Ed. It is a violation of Federal law to distribute copyrighted music, movies, software, games, and other works without authorization.
I agree.
But is it a sin to go against the stupid copyright laws?

This is just where we disagree.
 
Also, viewing something at your Grandma’s house is considered private along with personal use. But when someone puts it online for public use, now you have crossed the line. I have to agree with Ed again, too many people making excuses for their actions.
People have the right to share the contents of their computers be it on a LAN, Intranet or Internet.
 
I work in the media. I go to file sharing sites to see if they are stealing our material, and guess what? They are. Copyright means right to copy. If you have no right to copy then don’t copy it. How much simpler does it get? If it doesn’t belong to you, don’t take it. Ever.
I agree with your point.

The difficulty for some comes from where to draw the line. The media companies have only themselves to blame for the effects of their bountiful greed.

When home videotaping became available, the media companies fought this all the way to the supreme court claiming theft. Ditto for recording radio.

The media companies have also claimed that it is illegal to “rip” a track from a CD you purchased to your MP3 player - their position is you must buy it again. Similar issue with DVDs to entertainment devices.

These all go against everyone’s sense of fair play, if not (and it is questionable) the legal sense of fair use.

While it has no bearing at all on morality, the media companies have won no friends with how they have treated their customers. Extorting thousands out of people who wrongly shared - or not - under pain of financial ruin if they resisted. Manipulation of laws wildly unfair in their favor through lobbying. DRM.
 
Intellectual property can be abused. But it cannot be stolen. If I plagiarize someone else’s work, I abuse their intellectual property, but it remains their Intellectual property. I have “taken” nothing from them.
Switching the word ‘stolen’ with ‘abused’ doesn’t make it less wrong.
 
Read what the FBI has to say:

fbi.gov/cyberinvest/cyberedletter.htm

God bless,
Ed
Ed,

With all due love and respect to you personally…citing the FBI regulations here is a red herring. The issue we (terminated and I) are discussing is a philosophical one. We’re asking you and andy to provide a conceptual analysis of theft which captures the sense in which both actually physical theft of property and non-physical “theft” of intellectual property are both “theft”. My contention is that intellectual property laws which try to equate abuse of intellectual property with the traditional physical concept of theft are just wrongheaded and contrary to moral law…in the same way that laws prohibiting alcohol, or denying women or minorities the right to vote were wrongheaded and contrary to moral law.

The fact is that the rules of the entertainment business have been outdated be technilogical advance, new categories of reasoning are required. It’s a brave new world.
 
Switching the word ‘stolen’ with ‘abused’ doesn’t make it less wrong.
Spirithound, recall the dialectic. I was responding to andy’s claim that filesharing is stealing (where “is” is the “is of identity”). Whatever filesharing is, it cannot be “theft” since intellectual property cannot, in principle, be stolen, it can only be abused. Personally, I’m not even sure that filesharing constitutes an “abuse” of intellectual property. At any rate it would take a further argument to establish even as much as this.
 
I think you are being naive here. Have you ever been to a third world country?
Do you think most people in third world countries can afford to buy DVDs or buy musics from an online store?

I know one can get an mp3 song for $0.99 ~ $1. Do you know the number of people living under a dollar per day?

Do you know how much just one of the products of an Adobe Creative Suite costs?

If you do know all the above, then you will probably understand why some people rely on file sharing + freeware (when applicable).

You guys seem to just be interested in your business and that’s all
Very sad that you should bring up this lame example. I have a close friend who was poor. He rarely had more than exact change for things. Guess what? Stealing anything would not have helped him. There are people living in their cars in the United States today because they got kicked out of their homes.

I know exactly what Adobe Creative Suite costs. We priced it.

I have been out of work and without any income but I didn’t think stealing was going to help me.

Prior to the internet, there were poor people and they didn’t have file sharing. So don’t use the poor as an excuse.

God bless,
Ed
 
I disagree with you here again. Everything is just kinda wrong with copyright laws. That is why there are anti-copyright groups.

The laws are unfortunately even confusing to the copyrighters themselves. Just so many lawsuits against copyrighters. E.g
US soldier sues Hurt Locker writer
Did J.K. Rowlings Steal Harry Potter?
Apple sues HTC

C’mon
I am aware of all of those cases. None of them would even go to trial if the plaintiffs can’t show damages. Did you know that? Before a judge wastes any time, the party bringing the suit has to show clear evidence that (A) an actionable infringement occurred and (B) that damages have occurred or will occur as a result of this infringement.

These lawsuits are not against copyrighters. No one is a copywriter. People can accuse others of stealing something, such as the J.K. Rowling case, but unless they have clear examples to show to a lawyer, it will get thrown out.

With all due respect, saying something is “kinda wrong” doesn’t explain anything.

God bless,
Ed
 
Ed,

With all due love and respect to you personally…citing the FBI regulations here is a red herring. The issue we (terminated and I) are discussing is a philosophical one. We’re asking you and andy to provide a conceptual analysis of theft which captures the sense in which both actually physical theft of property and non-physical “theft” of intellectual property are both “theft”. My contention is that intellectual property laws which try to equate abuse of intellectual property with the traditional physical concept of theft are just wrongheaded and contrary to moral law…in the same way that laws prohibiting alcohol, or denying women or minorities the right to vote were wrongheaded and contrary to moral law.

The fact is that the rules of the entertainment business have been outdated be technilogical advance, new categories of reasoning are required. It’s a brave new world.
This is straight out of the Anarchism 101 playbook. Followed by: Those lawmakers just can’t keep up with rapid changes in the technology.

It’s all bogus. If amazon can charge me $5.00 for an electronic book for my Kindle and I pay the $5.00, do I get something? Do I get a book? I can prove that I did.

Please, don’t pour water on someone’s leg and tell them it’s raining.

Peace,
Ed
 
So now you are comparing your actions to a public library. You are downloading this stuff out of the goodness of your heart. Give me a break. According to Merriam-Webster’s Online Dictionary, the definition of steal is to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as a habitual or regular practice Are you wrongfully taking someone else’s property? If the company wanted us to have it for free, they would put up their own website for you to download it for free. But maybe the company wants to be compensated for their time, money & effort in producing something.
See, I think this is the crux of the argument. The word “take”. And I’m speaking philosophically here, not legally.

What the word “take” meant for pretty much all of time was for Person B to usurp a physical object belonging to Person A. The result is that Person A no longer has the object (they hav been deprived of it), and Person B now has the object. Now that we have computers and digital information the meaning has been muddied. In file-sharing, Person B copies a digital file which belongs to Person A. The after effect is that both Person A and Person B now have a full copy of the file (ie Person A has not been deprived of anything).

So can we really say that in the second situation it is theft then when it doesn’t follow the traditional reasoning (ie it is wrong because Person A has been deprived of their property)? It’s just a hypothetical conjecture, nothing more.
 
So can we really say that in the second situation it is theft then when it doesn’t follow the traditional reasoning (ie it is wrong because Person A has been deprived of their property)? It’s just a hypothetical conjecture, nothing more.
Person A has been deprived of a just wage (assuming Person A is the artist/programmer/writer).
 
Person A has been deprived of a just wage (assuming Person A is the artist/programmer/writer).
That one I did know about. I think you can apply that to most cases.

Ok, another one. Let’s say a person buys a song on his laptop. He copies it to his desktop computer (so it exists on 2 computers at once). Would that be considered theft?
 
That one I did know about. I think you can apply that to most cases.

Ok, another one. Let’s say a person buys a song on his laptop. He copies it to his desktop computer (so it exists on 2 computers at once). Would that be considered theft?
That is what the industry first claim with cassette tapes, at first they started to sell cassettes with extra cuts on them so you wouldn’t be content to tape your album and the first CDs often had the second single omitted from them as they tried to force you to buy your entire catalog over and over again as formats changed,

All this talk of sharing files I wonder how many of the pro side actually bought a song/movie to share with others versus how many just use songs/movies someone else bought or stole?
 
That is what the industry first claim with cassette tapes, at first they started to sell cassettes with extra cuts on them so you wouldn’t be content to tape your album and the first CDs often had the second single omitted from them as they tried to force you to buy your entire catalog over and over again as formats changed,

All this talk of sharing files I wonder how many of the pro side actually bought a song/movie to share with others versus how many just use songs/movies someone else bought or stole?
4square…I never DL music, or video, from torrent sites, except for BT-Etree, a site which offers torrents of live performance audio by openly trade-tape friendly artists (like WILCO, Phish, the Grateful, etc). Otherwise I buy my music in the iTunes store. I asked Edwest, who claimed earlier that all filesharing is stealing to address the issue of filesharing with the permission of the artists, but he has said nothing (which makes me think he is not much interested in dialoguing so much as gainsaying opposing views).

I do watch streaming video of broadcast and cable television series (if I cannot find it on Hulu.com or Netflix.com …my justification for this is that (a) in the case of broadcast television, the product is being given away for free in exchange for commercial advertisement, but since DVR will allow anyone to skip the commercials, and we don’t find it immoral to DVR, by extension how can it be immoral for me to use my computer as a “DVR” in the functional sense by watching programming commercial. I only download shows that I like and want to keep and in that case I pay for them on iTunes (e.g. BSG, LOST, Stargate Atlantis, Psych), and (b) I believe that human brains are essentially filesharing devices (they copy and retain information), hence if it is moral for me to watch a streamed shared television program on my computer, then it should just as illegal for me to remember a passage of a novel I’ve read. in either case I copying copyrighted material.
 
theglobeandmail.com/news/technology/net-piracy-taking-toll-on-jobs-european-study-says/article1503357/

'A study into Internet piracy by a Paris-based consultancy published on Wednesday showed that 1.2 million jobs in the European Union could be lost over the next five years if more is not done to clamp down on illegal downloading.

…Those industries generated €860-billion ($1.194-trillion) and employed 14.4 million people in 2008. But in the same year, €10-billion and 186,000 jobs were lost to piracy, the study found.

If that trend continues – and the rapid increase in illegal downloads and advancing piracy techniques suggest it will – then up to 1.2 million jobs and €240-billion worth of European commerce could be wiped out by 2015.’

Now, could the few holdouts please explain again how piracy and file sharing isn’t a sin?
 
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