Is free trade or fair trade more in accordance with Catholic teaching?

[Et_Cetera]

She agreed to work there knowing what the pay would be. That is free trade.

I find Wal-mart’s prices quite low. If she does not shop there, where else would she shop? Maybe she can get a better deal at Food-for-Less.

This is a really insensitive and rude comment. Yeah, I’m sure her daughter really loves working for a non-living wage and that this is her top choice job. Seriously, “Christians” are saying these kinds of things? I personally try to not shop at Wal-Mart because I don’t believe that they treat their workers fairly here or abroad. What good are the low prices if other peoples’ suffering is what makes is possible?

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Right again Leaf.

How long do you think fair trade, as a personal consumer choice will last until some groups begin barking for government enforcement?

We’re already barking.

 

[minkymurph]

The Catholic college I attended was designated as a fair trade college. Children in schools are taught about fair trade as part of the curriculum, and in my parish we have fair trade fetes after Mass. So Catholicism, at least in Ireland, very much promotes fair trade.

 

[nmgauss]

This is a really insensitive and rude comment. Yeah, I’m sure her daughter really loves working for a non-living wage and that this is her top choice job. Seriously, “Christians” are saying these kinds of things? I personally try to not shop at Wal-Mart because I don’t believe that they treat their workers fairly here or abroad. What good are the low prices if other peoples’ suffering is what makes is possible?

Often those other people are glad to have a job. They would be suffering more if there was no job.

 

[sallybutler]

Often those other people are glad to have a job. They would be suffering more if there was no job.

You are describing an unequal bargaining position. This is not free trade.

The Church teaches that 'Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages. (CC 2434). Just because someone is willing to work for peanuts does not mean the person paying the peanuts is morally justified in paying peanuts (unless they hired a squirrel). And yes, I know that businesses are not always moral.

Free trade implies both sides of the bargain will have equal bargaining positions. Fair trade implies that in an unbalanced situation, equitable positions will be created.

 

[nmgauss]

You are describing an unequal bargaining position. This is not free trade.

The Church teaches that 'Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages. (CC 2434). Just because someone is willing to work for peanuts does not mean the person paying the peanuts is morally justified in paying peanuts (unless they hired a squirrel). And yes, I know that businesses are not always moral.

Free trade implies both sides of the bargain will have equal bargaining positions. Fair trade implies that in an unbalanced situation, equitable positions will be created.

If the company cannot afford to pay more, or else it closes down completely, or moves to another country, all those potential workers are out of luck. Which is better; paying the workers what the company can afford even though that may be low, or not paying them at all because they have lost their jobs?

 

[sallybutler]

If the company cannot afford to pay more, or else it closes down completely, or moves to another country, all those potential workers are out of luck. Which is better; paying the workers what the company can afford even though that may be low, or not paying them at all because they have lost their jobs?

I used to joke that I wanted to start a business called Rationalizations Are Us. I am beginning to think I would’ve had a lot of competition from a lot of people.

Unfortunately, a company that can’t afford to pay their workers more usually has other and bigger problems than the salary they pay their employees. As for the ones that move their production to other countries, generally (please note the word generally), they don’t treat those workers in a just manner.

 

[minkymurph]

You are describing an unequal bargaining position. This is not free trade.

The Church teaches that 'Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages. (CC 2434). Just because someone is willing to work for peanuts does not mean the person paying the peanuts is morally justified in paying peanuts (unless they hired a squirrel). And yes, I know that businesses are not always moral.

Free trade implies both sides of the bargain will have equal bargaining positions. Fair trade implies that in an unbalanced situation, equitable positions will be created.

This is very accurate statement sally from a legal perspective. I am impressed!

As you say, free trade presumes both sides have equal bargaining power. This position is untenable. I’m impressed by your use of the law of equity. In the UK the law of equity has doctrines regarding unconscionable dealing and unjust enrichment. As far as I know the US has similar laws? The reason for this is the courts and legislature are well aware of the fact superior bargaining power can be abused to drive an unconscionable bargain that results in unjust enrichment. As such, it acknowledges parties do not have equal bargaining positions.

There are points I would like to raise in regards to arguments against the minimum wage.

The first point is it has been argued the lower the wages the more jobs there are. I would argue more people may be employed but more people will be living below the poverty line. To raise wages may render more people unemployed, but less will be living below the poverty line.

The second point is there is a bigger picture than a numerical value of persons employed. Businesses that pay low wages tend to find it more difficult to hold on to good staff. Businesses that pay higher wages can cream. Meaning, they are more likely to be successful.

The third point is, is it not the case those on low wages receive government assistance? Do those who argue against the minimum wage agree they should receive welfare? Or do they think they should not?

The last point I would raise is on the point of moral justification. Do those who argue against the minimum think it should be set solely in proportion to what the employer can afford to pay irrespective of the cost of living? Let’s say an employer can only afford to pay an employee a dollar an hour irrespective of what the employee does for that dollar. Can that be morally justified?

 

[minkymurph]

I’m going to throw this out as an idea of mine. I ran it by a friend of mine who runs a small (struggling) business and he thought it was a great idea. This friend of mine is a trader and he has often cut prices for me, thrown in something else and cut me a better deal with other traders. Now that’s what I call free trade and bargaining power - also reciprocity which I am a big believer in. Mind you, the chain on one of the necklaces he gave me made my neck go green so there’s a bit of a problem with quality control.

My idea is a pool of self-employed workers. These people are on a register and employers can take them on as and when needed on a self-employed basis. They can work as much or as little as they choose for any number of employers. You could set up a collective scheme they could all contribute to in accordance with what they can afford for sickness and medical care.

A lot of cleaners in my part of the world operate like this and they do OK because the good ones get plenty of work. If you work for someone on a self-employed basis cash in hand they also tend to give ‘sweetner’s’ if you good.

What do people think? I’m ready for the onslaught.

 

[minkymurph]

It’s me again.

Low wages also has the effect of serving as an impediment to university graduates getting jobs.

A young, smart friend of mine with a law degree recently went for an interview with a law firm. She was offered 10 000 a year. She rejected it because she couldn’t live on it and asked for 12 000 a year. Needless to say, she did not get the job for that reason.

So much for equality of bargaining power.

I’m due to graduate from university this year. I applied for a summer job serving chips in a kids fun park and was turned down - and no I didn’t ask for a higher hourly rate. I know some of the people who got jobs and they have no qualifications or experience.

So much for university graduates getting the lower paid jobs if employers have to pay the minimum wage.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

A young, smart friend of mine with a law degree recently went for an interview with a law firm. She was offered 10 000 a year. She rejected it because she couldn’t live on it and asked for 12 000 a year. Needless to say, she did not get the job for that reason.

For the benefit of your US readers, please clarify the unit of currency. Pounds? Euros?

 

[minkymurph]

For the benefit of your US readers, please clarify the unit of currency. Pounds? Euros?

Apologies - Pounds.

Unfortunately the pound sign doesn’t work on my computer.

Interestingly when I press the speech marks key I this @ -

and when I press the @ key I get this "

 

[nmgauss]

I used to joke that I wanted to start a business called Rationalizations Are Us. I am beginning to think I would’ve had a lot of competition from a lot of people.

Unfortunately, a company that can’t afford to pay their workers more usually has other and bigger problems than the salary they pay their employees. As for the ones that move their production to other countries, generally (please note the word generally), they don’t treat those workers in a just manner.

In a labor intensive operation such as agriculture and food processing, the wages it pays its employees is its greatest expense. If the company can’t sell its product or service because of its price and it is held to an unsustainable minimum wage, it goes out of business. The marketplace determines the viability of the company. Reduce its expenses or fail.

 

[minkymurph]

In a labor intensive operation such as agriculture and food processing, the wages it pays its employees is its greatest expense. If the company can’t sell its product or service because of its price and it is held to an unsustainable minimum wage, it goes out of business. The marketplace determines the viability of the company. Reduce its expenses or fail.

I agree that in labor intensive operations wages are the greatest expense, but I don’t think anyone is arguing an unsustainable minimum wage should be forced on businesses.

I also agree if a business can’t sell it’s service because of the price it will go out of business. What I would ask is, are there not more factors in the equation in terms of their ability to sell their product or service than wages?

To explain, farmers here sell their milk to supermarkets. I’m sure I don’t need to tell you milk is a bare essential with a short, shelf life. As a result of this a price war developed resulting in farmers selling their milk at a loss. In fairness, the giant’s such as Tesco agreed to pay the farmers more their milk to stop them going under and prevent further unemployment. In short, there are alternatives to paying people less and those alternatives are in the hands of those who possess greater bargaining power.

As regards food processing, I buy my fruit and veg from a local shop, bring my own bag and wash it myself. That keeps prices down. If there is one thing I HATE it is these huge packets with a ‘skittery’ (as we say here) pieces of meat or anything else in it. I opened a packet of crisps yesterday and there must a been about three crisps in the bottom of this huge bag. Could businesses not cut costs by cutting down on their packaging?

Take Starbuck’s. They have nicely packaged food well presented, but I argue the packet costs more than what’s in it, and since when was half a lettuce leaf, a quarter of a tomato and spoonful of goo masquerading as coleslaw a salad? I call that garnish. They have lovely buns and stuff (pastries to you) but I want a big, fat home-made bun that doesn’t look exactly like everyone else’s AND I WANT IT NOW!!!

And they laughed at the vending machines with pills for food in the first Star Trek?

 

[minkymurph]

Just want to add -

I stayed with friends in Hong Kong. I was amazed to find silk was cheap, a tin of Foster’s beer cost 20 pence, (sterling) yet a liter of milk cost three pounds sterling. Guess what I drank more of?

The reason milk was so expensive is because it had to flown in every day, and the high prices were due not to workers wages, but high fuel costs.

 

[nmgauss]

I also agree if a business can’t sell it’s service because of the price it will go out of business. What I would ask is, are there not more factors in the equation in terms of their ability to sell their product or service than wages?

Well, they could hire expensive consultants to map out a plan to market their products. Of course that would eat into their ability to pay minimum wage.

My daughter is a public relations consultant. Clients pay her beaucoup to improve their image to the public and hopefully people will like the company better. Maybe Walmart could use her services.

All of this of course adds to the company’s expenses further eating into their financial health.

 

[minkymurph]

Well, they could hire expensive consultants to map out a plan to market their products. Of course that would eat into their ability to pay minimum wage.

My daughter is a public relations consultant. Clients pay her beaucoup to improve their image to the public and hopefully people will like the company better. Maybe Walmart could use her services.
nmgauss;12087556:

All of this of course adds to the company’s expenses further eating into their financial health.

All companies have expenses. It is true events can occur that are unforeseeable and outside their control, but you raise another point. You say clients pay your daughter beaucoup? In which case would I be correct to assume she is paid more than the minimum wage? In which case, is the argument an imposed minimum wage will create more unemployment and cause businesses to go under not really the issue? Is the real issue the people engaged in occupations on the lower end of the employment spectrum are not considered deserving of it? If so, that puts a different perspective on the issue.

 

[nmgauss]

nmgauss;12087556:

Well, they could hire expensive consultants to map out a plan to market their products. Of course that would eat into their ability to pay minimum wage.

My daughter is a public relations consultant. Clients pay her beaucoup to improve their image to the public and hopefully people will like the company better. Maybe Walmart could use her services.

All companies have expenses. It is true events can occur that are unforeseeable and outside their control, but you raise another point. You say clients pay your daughter beaucoup? In which case would I be correct to assume she is paid more than the minimum wage? In which case, is the argument an imposed minimum wage will create more unemployment and cause businesses to go under not really the issue? Is the real issue the people engaged in occupations on the lower end of the employment spectrum are not considered deserving of it? If so, that puts a different perspective on the issue.

If a person receives a salary or a commission, there is no such thing as minimum wage. One puts in as much time and effort as the job requires. My daughter is salaried when working for a company. Right now, she is contracting her services. Whatever the client is prepared to pay determines whether a contract is made.

 

[nmgauss]

When I worked as a computer programmer, I was salaried. If my programs failed at 2 AM, I had to travel to the shop and fix them. I got no overtime.

In one shop, hourly unionized employees were paid better than I. When I found out, I looked for another job.

 

[estesbob]

Just a note on “fair trade/free trade.” My daughter works for Walmarts. One day I said something about her buying her groceries there. She said “Not on what they pay me!” It’s unfair to the employees of a company if they don’t get paid enough to buy something as necessary as groceries there.

Where would she find cheaper groceries than Wal -Mart?