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CrossofChrist
Guest
Is the capability to choose both good and evil an essential part of human nature? If yes, then wouldn’t it have been possible for Christ to commit sin, if he truly took on our humanity?
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Bahman
Guest
I mentioned this in another post but I didn’t get any answer, so perhaps he didn’t live long enough. Then why we should blame Adam and Eve? They just lived long enough in the garden! So everything is matter of time my friend. Once you have free will you are in danger.
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grannymh
Guest
Free will is essential to human nature.
The Divine Person Jesus Christ assumed human nature. (CCC, 470) He did not absorb human nature. Christ possess two wills and two natural operations as True God and True Man. Christ’s human will submits to His divine will which He has in common with the Father and the Holy Spirit. (CCC, 475; CCC, 479-483)
Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
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Bahman
Guest
How he could assume human nature without the ability to do sin?
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CrossofChrist
Guest
Yes, I’m aware. But if free will consists of the ability to choose both good and evil, then Christ didn’t have free will.
I’m not disputing the fact that Christ assumed human nature, but a common form of apologetics that tries to account for evil by claiming that if we couldn’t choose to do evil we wouldn’t have free will. A truly free will consists of being perfectly united to God, and anything less is not true freedom. OTOH, we lose freedom and become “slaves to sin” when we choose something that is wrong.
I probably should’ve made my objective clearer when I started the thread.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Because Christ is both God and man. The Incarnation is a mystery. Don’t try to solve it.
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JerryZ
Guest
I think you are mistaking “ability” = “potentiality” to commit sin which Jesus indeed has in as much as He IS fully human with Him choosing NOT to commit sin as He aligned His will with that of His father whom abhors sin by being perfect.
We also are called to become like Jesus by choosing NOT to sin by aligning our wills with that of Jesus and by extension with that of the father.
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phil_at_dayboro
Guest
Yes I would say so, but in that time, Jesus had a distinct advantage,
He knew what he was doing,and he had the difficult task of convincing others of that fact,
I believe Evil as well as good, are both an essential part of humanity,
Because of that we can grow in the true appreciation of Gods light
meltzerboy
New member
Human nature means that we are tempted to commit sin; but since we have free will, it is possible for us to resist temptation. I would imagine that the will of the human “side” of Jesus, according to Christian belief, would be strong enough to consistently resist falling into sin. Besides, as granny points out, Jesus’ human will submits to His divine will.
po18guy
Well-known member
Not to accuse, but this line of thinking eventually lead to early heresies. Choosing to sin is choosing to become less than we were created as. Evil is a lack of good. God cannot violate His nature by becoming less than He is. The nature of His hypostatic union makes Christ unique amongst all of humanity. As such, His human will was perfectly conformed to that of His Father. As well, an imperfectly ordered human will could not redeem mankind.
Do we want to argue or do we want to learn? Read the catechism sections that grannymh posted. It is not like picking up War and Peace. They are brief sections, yet the catechism contains enough revelation about Christ to fill a lifetime of pondering and study.
God has not been lazy with us. Let us not be lazy with Him. Just read it.
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dissurnmnt
Guest
Now, see, this claim has always bothered me, because who’s to say that God couldn’t have wired us such that we’d have free will PLUS couldn’t choose evil? Besides, are we saying that evil already lay “latent” or “dormant” somewhere before A & E did their dastardly deed? Seems like you can only choose evil if it’s already in the circuits of the universe. This whole theodicy thing is a real stumper.
Well, how can there be a lack of good in what was originally a pristine universe? Romans talks about sin “entering the world thru one man” which is puzzling, since if Adam was perfect, then how could he “choose” to sin? (I know, this isn’t 100% on topic, but it is germane, nonetheless.)
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CrossofChrist
Guest
What I was disputing or my line of thinking?
Yep.
Yep. He was the “true man”, the epitome of all that is truly human.
100% agree.
This is good advice.
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CrossofChrist
Guest
The universe wasn’t created “pristine” and static. God created humans as people journeying toward an end–the beatific vision. God created humans who haven’t attained that end with the capability of choosing between good and evil. But when we have attained our end we become perfect.Now, see, this claim has always bothered me, because who’s to say that God couldn’t have wired us such that we’d have free will PLUS couldn’t choose evil? Besides, are we saying that evil already lay “latent” or “dormant” somewhere before A & E did their dastardly deed? Seems like you can only choose evil if it’s already in the circuits of the universe. This whole theodicy thing is a real stumper.
Well, how can there be a lack of good in what was originally a pristine universe? Romans talks about sin “entering the world thru one man” which is puzzling, since if Adam was perfect, then how could he “choose” to sin? (I know, this isn’t 100% on topic, but it is germane, nonetheless.)
meltzerboy
New member
I think the sin of Adam is more of a conundrum than you suggest. Was Adam created with the potential to sin? If so, then he exercised his free will when he disobeyed G-d. If not, then he could not have disobeyed G-d. However, if Adam had the potential to sin from his creation, then he knew the difference between good and evil BEFORE disobeying G-d, which is contrary to the general interpretation of Genesis.
po18guy
Well-known member
Adam was created with freedom. For love to be returned to G-d, the source of all love, it had to be freely given - chosen, actually. If it is forced, it is not love. Adam abused his freedom. Yet, one abused his freedom long before, and was cast out of heaven because of it.
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CrossofChrist
Guest
Wow…there’s the answer. :doh2:
I suppose another question could be why did God create an evolutionary world, although I have my own theories anyway.
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grannymh
Guest
Please, what general interpretation of Genesis?
The Catholic Church considers Adam and his descendants as fully-complete human beings with both rational intellect and will as essential elements of human nature. Our human nature is an unique unification of both the spiritual world and the material world. Even a little bit of common sense would make it plain that Adam knew exactly what had to be done in order for a creature to be in a friendship relationship with His Creator. Adam’s potential to sin (disobedience) is clear in Genesis 2: 15-17; CCC, 396; CCC, 1730-1732)
While we inherited a wounded nature, it is still spiritual with an intellect and will.
Here is a crazy thought … When Christ assumed human nature, was it Adam’s?
(romans 5: 12-21)
po18guy
Well-known member
Such questioning, without knowing Church teaching, can lead to the questioning of either Christ’s humanity, or His divinity.
meltzerboy
New member
How do you interpret the meaning of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? The customary interpretation is that evil existed APART from human nature before Adam and Eve ate the fruit of this tree. Thus there would be no evil inclination to sin before disobeying G-d by eating from the tree, which, on the surface of it, is a conundrum. Judaism follows this line of thinking but adds further interpretation to it. Does the Church disagree and instead believe that a wounded human nature existed BEFORE Adam and Eve disobeyed G-d?
meltzerboy
New member
Judaism interprets this part of Genesis by stating that after Adam disobeyed G-d, the good and the bad became comingled so that he was no longer able to differentiate clearly between them without learning how to do so. In fact, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, based on the Hebrew language, means the knowledge of ALL things, including those which are good, bad, and everything inbetween. This, ironically, led to mankind’s LACK of knowledge in distinguishing what is good from what is not good. With this act of disobedience came the birth of mankind’s “evil” inclination, which is not only directed toward sinful behavior but also toward survival in the form of finding food to eat, working, sexual behavior, and other forms of positive aggression provided it is not abused. Whether they commit sinful behavior or simply try to survive, humans would no longer live in a Garden of Eden with all their needs provided for.
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