Is Free Will Biblical?

[CHESTERTONRULES]

How convenient!

Your position just got definitively crushed - and all of a sudden - you lose your interest! No worries - this is the usual response to such a devastating blow!

With all due respect though, why would you not be interested in disproving me, and vindicating your position? Is that not why you started this thread? Therefore - I find it odd that you would bypass such a strong post as mine - in the interest of ‘dialog’.

Unless your definition of dialog is - “we must speak one sentance at a time” - then I am afraid that no one is dialoging on this entire forum! Come on man - get real - and show some passion!

I will await your response.

**** Again - you did not answer my question about the origin of a man’s desires - another attempt to by-pass devistating arguments that demolish your position of libertarianism. I still await an answer to both my posts.

You crack me up.

You ignore my questions because they paint you into a corner.

Try to keep focused. If you ask me a question I’ll answer it as honestly as I can. I hope you will do the same. Here’s is my most recent post:

I think all humans, Christian and otherwise, are able to recognize that our strongest desire at any given moment may not be the best long term choice.

We have the ability to study hard rather than skip school, to delay gratification, etc.

We also have the ability to pray with sincerity, ‘your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven’.

Why do you think Jesus told us to pray this particular line in the Lord’s Prayer?

 

[Frontline]

You crack me up.

You ignore my questions because they paint you into a corner.

Try to keep focused. If you ask me a question I’ll answer it as honestly as I can. I hope you will do the same.

Good - I will go first - BUT- you have much to make up - because I gave you multiple questions in post number 34 - and in post number 36 I did answer your question that you gave me in post number 35 - (which was a repeat of your question in post number 33).

I think all humans, Christian and otherwise, are able to recognize that our strongest desire at any given moment may not be the best long term choice. We have the ability to study hard rather than skip school, to delay gratification, etc. We also have the ability to pray with sincerity, ‘your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven’.

We only have the ability to do something if we truly and most desire it - but where do we get our desires to pray - “thy will be done” ?

And again - can we choose against our strongest desire? If so - then prove it - give me an example.

Why do you think Jesus told us to pray this particular line in the Lord’s Prayer?

Umm . . . maybe to give us particular principles and guidelines that are to be upheld when we undertake the holy business of prayer? We are not to raise our wills above God’s will - but to humble ourselves in His presence and in our lives. But does this teach HOW men find the ability to do so? No. It teaches what we ought to do - and says nothing about how it is that we are enabled to do so.

Now it is your turn to answer my questions.

 

[Pwrlftr]

You crack me up.

You ignore my questions because they paint you into a corner.

Try to keep focused. If you ask me a question I’ll answer it as honestly as I can. I hope you will do the same. Here’s is my most recent post:

I think all humans, Christian and otherwise, are able to recognize that our strongest desire at any given moment may not be the best long term choice.

We have the ability to study hard rather than skip school, to delay gratification, etc.

We also have the ability to pray with sincerity, ‘your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven’.

Why do you think Jesus told us to pray this particular line in the Lord’s Prayer?

Why did Jesus to pray that God’s will be done? I’m no good at guessing games, charades, pool, poker, or monopoly.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Why did Jesus to pray that God’s will be done? I’m no good at guessing games, charades, pool, poker, or monopoly.

I asked why did Jesus tell us to pray"Thy will be done’?

I don’t think this would be necessary unless it was possible for us to choose against God’s will.

Do you agree?

 

[Pwrlftr]

Perhaps, and this is only a suggestion, before starting threads like these one should:

a.) define what free will is

b.) use something like the Westminster Confession to illustrate what Calvinists believe about the topic of the day

The only topic better than free will on a Catholic forum is total depravity. Everyone has an opinion on how wrong it is but no one can quite define it.

 

[Pwrlftr]

I asked why did Jesus tell us to pray"Thy will be done’?

I don’t think this would be necessary unless it was possible for us to choose against God’s will.

Do you agree?

Chesterton,

We can choose against God’s will…I do it all the time when I sin, God is not the author of sin.

Is there more than one type of “will”?

 

[Frontline]

I asked why did Jesus tell us to pray"Thy will be done’?

I don’t think this would be necessary unless it was possible for us to choose against God’s will.

Do you agree?

Again - this is a matter of the will of God - not the will of man.

If you read my post - you would understand the different aspects of God’s will. Also - you might want to follow the link I provided - and do some reading before you answer me on that issue.

My question is this - why does one person heed Christ’s counsel and pray, “thy will be done” - and others do not? What can account for the difference between those who will obey His instructions, and those who will not obey his instructions?

Does it have anything to do with the nature and desires of the individual - and perhaps the influence or lack of influence of God’s effectual grace? Just asking. Is the will autonomous - or is it directed by the desire? Where do our desires come from - do they appear out of thin air - or are they a product of our natures? Are we free from sin by nature - or in bondage to it by nature?

These are questions that cannot be answered honestly by Catholics - because once they are - the person is no longer a Catholic - but a Calvinist.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Good - I will go first - BUT- you have much to make up - because I gave you multiple questions in post number 34 - and in post number 36 I did answer your question that you gave me in post number 35 - (which was a repeat of your question in post number 33).

We only have the ability to do something if we truly and most desire it - but where do we get our desires to pray - “thy will be done” ?

God’s grace is constantly reaching out to us. However, the more we reject his will, the more difficult it can be to seek it.

And again - can we choose against

our strongest desire? If so - then prove it - give me an example.

I often choose against my strongest desire. I know my agnostic friends do as well.

My strongest desire may be to stay in bed in the morning. However, my will is able to force me to act in my long term interest even though it goes against my current desire.

Umm . . . maybe to give us particular principles and guidelines that are to be upheld when we undertake the holy business of prayer? We are not to raise our wills above God’s will - but to humble ourselves in His presence and in our lives. But does this teach HOW men find the ability to do so? No. It teaches what we ought to do - and says nothing about how it is that we are enabled to do so.

It teaches us that we have the ability to choose against God’s will. Jesus is teaching us that God will help us follow his will if we ask for his help.

If God’s will always prevailed, why bother praying this line of the Lord’s Prayer?

I’ll check posts 34 and 36 to see which questions you are referring to.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

IIs God a robot because He cannot choose to be unholy?

Not likely. You don’t have enough ammo, although I can tell you are trying!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

You are excercising your will - but the will is not free to choose apart from your strongest desire at the given moment.

So if you choose to submit to God, then that is because it was the strongest desire you had at that moment (all things considered). Now the question is this: Where did that desire come from? Did it come from your will? I think not. The desire dictates to the will - and not the other way around.

I totally disagree.

 

[Frontline]

I often choose against my strongest desire. I know my agnostic friends do as well. My strongest desire may be to stay in bed in the morning. However, my will is able to force me to act in my long term interest even though it goes against my current desire.

I see a conflict of desires here. One desire for extra rest and sleep, and another desire for supporting yourself by getting up and going to work - and thereby maintaining a respectable amount of job security. You have immediate desire and a long term desire. Which one was stronger?

Again - are there two aspects of God’s will?

God’s revealed will of command, and God’s hidden will of decree? (See Deut. 29:29)

Did God will for Christ to suffer at the hands of wicked men? (See Acts 4:27, 28).

The answer is YES and NO. The Reformed Faith takes this into consideration, and therefore we are less likely to skew particular passages into a wooden definition of God’s will.

I’ll check posts 34 and 36 to see which questions you are referring to.

Why thank you very much!

[/QUOTE]

 

[Frontline]

God chooses anything he wants.

I agree - and so do we all!

We choose whatever we WANT (desire) most.

God cannot choose to do what he cannot desire - and neither can we.

Why?

Because the will is determined by the strongest desire, and the desires are determined by the nature - and God by nature is Absolutely HOLY.

Therefore- because God is absolutely HOLY by nature - He cannot produce unholy desires, and therefore He cannot make unholy choices, and therefore He cannot commit unholy acts!

Does this mean that God does not have a free will?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I often choose against my strongest desire. I know my agnostic friends do as well. My strongest desire may be to stay in bed in the morning. However, my will is able to force me to act in my long term interest even though it goes against my current desire.

Wrong. My will to do the right thing overcame my desire.

To say otherwise would be to either lie, (whcih I would not accuse you of) - or to misinterpret one’s own experience. I would say that you have not though about it long enough.

That is your opinion, which in my opinion is illogical and unrelated to reality.

Again - are there two aspects of God’s will?

God’s revealed will of command, and God’s hidden will of decree? (See Deut. 29:29)

Did God will for Christ to suffer at the hands of wicked men? (See Acts 4:27, 28).

The answer is YES and NO. The Reformed Faith takes this into consideration, and therefore we are less likely to skew particular passages into a wooden definition of God’s will.

We are speaking of human free will, not God’s.

Since you brought it up, however, let me ask you:

If God WILLED to create man with free will, could he have done it?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I agree - and so do we all!

We choose whatever we WANT (desire) most.

God cannot choose to do what he cannot desire - and neither can we.

Why?

Because the will is determined by the strongest desire, and the desires are determined by the nature - and God by nature is Absolutely HOLY.

Therefore- because God is absolutely HOLY by nature - He cannot produce unholy desires, and therefore He cannot make unholy choices, and therefore He cannot commit unholy acts!

Does this mean that God does not have a free will?

God has free will and you are presumptious to assume that you know what God would or would not choose.

 

[cfrancis]

If you really had a “free” will, that was not determined by your strongest desire at the given moment – you would find yourself in a restaurant ordering food that you hated, and hanging our with people that you dislike!

The fact is - All our choices are determined by our strongest desire at any given moment.

Your argument is predicated on two false assumptions:

• freedom = free will
• and your statement above

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I don’t think you ever addressed my initial scripture passage:

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, `Blessed [is] He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ "

If Jesus wanted to gather the Jews together under his wing, why didn’t it happen?

 

[christian77]

I did not read a response on John chapter 1 that I posted. I don’t think I will get one for Romans 9 either. Augustine is a good place to start.

9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, [2] and his own people [3] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1

lgmarshall.org/Augustine/augustine_willgrace.html

Romans 9

God’s Sovereign Choice

9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, [1] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel [3] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Israel’s Unbelief
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness [4] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

 

[Frontline]

Wrong. My will to do the right thing overcame my desire.

Why did your will choose the right thing?

If God WILLED to create man with free will, could he have done it?

No.

God has free will and you are presumptious to assume that you know what God would or would not choose.

Are you saying that God can choose to sin?

Your argument is predicated on two false assumptions:

• freedom = free will . . .

Would you like to explain the difference between the two?

I don’t think you ever addressed my initial scripture passage: Matthew 23:37 - If Jesus wanted to gather the Jews together under his wing, why didn’t it happen?

I responded in part to this passage in post #12, and addressed it again in post #21, along with an answer to your current question.

Again, this is a question concerning the will of God, as I have already explained, but since you did not read it the first time, I will provide the information again:

The Reformed Faith affirms that there are TWO aspects to God’s will - 1) Preceptive Will 2) Decreetive Will.

This means that *in a sense *- God wills the salvation of all men - for He has commanded all men to repent and believe on Christ. This is what we call His “revealed will” - or His “will of command” - some theologians have called it His “permissive will”, for even though He commands it, He does nothing to secure the accomplishment of what He commands - He rather “permits” men to choose whether they will heed the command or not.

PLEASE NOTE - though men have the ability to sin, they never have the *right * to sin.

But God does all things with a definite purpose and absolute foreknowledge - working all things according to the counsel of His own [sovereign] will. God’s will of Decee, or His “perfect will” - or His “efficient will” always comes to pass. When God wills in this way, like He willed for Christ to be crucified - it must come to pass - even if it comes to pass through the rebellion of wicked men who are violating the “revealed will” of God (thou shalt not kill). God takes all things into account - for He is omniscient.

For more on this truth - follow this link:

desiringgod.org/ResourceL…_Wills_in_God/

Now - [Matthew 23:23] The Reformed Faith affirms that Jesus willed the salvation of the children of Jerusalem in the first sense - in that He would if they would, but we deny that He willed their salvation *in the second sense *of the word - for if He willed their salvation in His eternal decree, then He would have saw to it that they would be brought to repentance and faith in Him.

So - your passage is not a passage that demonstrates free will - (a will that is free to come to Christ just as equally as it rejects Christ) - but rather a will that simply “will not come” to Christ (John 5:40).

This in and of itself cannot prove this ability of will that you claim.

This passage only teaches that they were unwilling. It does not prove the freedom of the will, but only demonstrates the negative inclination of their wills.

The Reformed Faith affirms that *all men *are naturally unwilling - and naturally resist the gospel call, and will do so until and unless God moves in power to quicken and cause the dead sinner to repent and believe.

 

[Frontline]

The Reformed Position of Compatibalism:

Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God’s predetermination and meticulous providence is “compatible” with voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced …i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God’s sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11)…

In light of Scripture, (according to compatibilism), human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism. For example, God is said to specifically ordain the crucifixion of His Son, and yet evil men voluntarily crucify Him (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). This voluntary of evil act is not free from God’s decree, but it is voluntary, according to these Texts. Or when Joseph’s brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt, Joseph later recounted that what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good (Gen 50:20). God determines and ordains that these events will take place (that Joseph will be sold into slavery), yet the brothers voluntarily make the evil choice that beings it to pass, which means the sin is imputed to Joseph’s brothers for the wicked act, and God remains blameless. In both of these cases, it could be said that God ordains sin, sinlessly. Nothing occurs apart from His sovereign good pleasure.

We should be clear that NEITHER compatibilism nor hard determinism affirms that any man has a free will. Those who believe man has a free will are not compatibilists, but should, rather, be called “inconsistent”.

Our choices are our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures, nor seperately from God’s meticulous providence.

Furthermore, compatibilism is directly contrary to libertarian free will. Therefore voluntary choice is not the freedom to choose otherwise, that is, a choice without any influence, prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. Voluntary does mean, however, the ability to choose what we want or desire most according to our disposition and inclinations.

The former view (libertarianism) is known as contrary choice, the latter free agency. (the fallen will is never free from the bondage of our corrupt nature, and and not free, in any sense, from God’s eternal decree.)

In biblical terminology, fallen man is in bondage to a corruption of nature and that is why the biblical writers considered him not free (see Rom 6). Jesus Himself affirms that the one who sins is a “slave to sin” and only the Son can set him free. Note that even Jesus speaks of a kind of freedom here. He is not speaking of freedom from God but freedom from the bondage of sin, which is the kind of freedom those have who are in Christ. In this sense God is the most free Person since He is holy, set apart from sin… yet He cannot make choices contrary to His essence, i.e. He cannot be unholy.

So, we must conclude, according to Jesus in John 8:31-36, that the natural man does not have a free will. The will is in bondage to sin. Any consistent theologian who uses the term “freedom” usually is referring to that fact that while God sovereignly ordains all that comes to pass, yet man’s “free choice” (that is, voluntary choice) is compatible with God’s sovereign decree. In other words the will is free from external coercion but not free from necessity.

One of the best statements on compatibilism is one I found from John Calvin:

"…we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man’s innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined. John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70

We have some free online resources you can look at here:

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Free-Will/Compatibilism/

The Question of Adam:

Prior to the fall, Adam’s will was not in bondage to sin, thus it was free from sin’s bondage and corruption but it was not free from God’s decree. His choice to rebel was completely voluntary even though God had ordained with certainty that it would come to pass. He was not yet sealed in righteousness even though his inclination was toward the good. However, through Satan’s devices, the fact that Adam overcame his own good inclination and chose evil makes original sin all the more heinous!

 

[Frontline]

Why did your will choose the right thing?

This is a self destructive and self-contradictory question.

Are you saying that God can choose to sin?

Would you like to explain the difference between the two?

I responded in part to this passage in post #12, and addressed it again in post #21, along with an answer to your current question.

Again, this is a question concerning the will of God, as I have already explained, but since you did not read it the first time, I will provide the information again:

The Reformed Faith affirms that there are TWO aspects to God’s will - 1) Preceptive Will 2) Decreetive Will.

This means that *in a sense *- God wills the salvation of all men - for He has commanded all men to repent and believe on Christ. This is what we call His “revealed will” - or His “will of command” - some theologians have called it His “permissive will”, for even though He commands it, He does nothing to secure the accomplishment of what He commands - He rather “permits” men to choose whether they will heed the command or not.

PLEASE NOTE - though men have the ability to sin, they never have the *right * to sin.

But God does all things with a definite purpose and absolute foreknowledge - working all things according to the counsel of His own [sovereign] will. God’s will of Decee, or His “perfect will” - or His “efficient will” always comes to pass. When God wills in this way, like He willed for Christ to be crucified - it must come to pass - even if it comes to pass through the rebellion of wicked men who are violating the “revealed will” of God (thou shalt not kill). God takes all things into account - for He is omniscient.

For more on this truth - follow this link:

desiringgod.org/ResourceL…_Wills_in_God/

Now - [Matthew 23:23] The Reformed Faith affirms that Jesus willed the salvation of the children of Jerusalem in the first sense - in that He would if they would, but we deny that He willed their salvation *in the second sense *of the word - for if He willed their salvation in His eternal decree, then He would have saw to it that they would be brought to repentance and faith in Him.

So - your passage is not a passage that demonstrates free will - (a will that is free to come to Christ just as equally as it rejects Christ) - but rather a will that simply “will not come” to Christ (John 5:40).

This in and of itself cannot prove this ability of will that you claim.

This passage only teaches that they were unwilling. It does not prove the freedom of the will, but only demonstrates the negative inclination of their wills.

The Reformed Faith affirms that *all men *are naturally unwilling - and naturally resist the gospel call, and will do so until and unless God moves in power to quicken and cause the dead sinner to repent and believe.