Is Free Will Taken Away?

[Cure]

I’ve heard countless times that humans have free will, that God had no desire to control us like puppets, or MAKE us love him. So at times I wonder; when we make it to Heaven…do you think we’ll still have free will?

Most people pray to God because they want him to ease the pain in their life. What will happen when there is no more pain? Will people still pray…of their own free will?

Will we not still have an urge to do wrong? One cannot assume that the choice to do wrong will be erased, being that the angels themselves chose to disobey God.

Even Adam, probably the purest of human, sinned. So in Heaven, what will stop us from sinning? And if we do sin, will we be kicked from Heaven into Hell?

 

[Eucharisted]

We will have free-will in Heaven; we will be allowed to do all the good we want. Free-will was given to us so we would choose God, after all.

 

[Farley4334]

We will have free will in heaven, but we will no longer choose sin. Once purified from any desire to sin in purgatory and once we enjoy the beatific vision, sin will seem utterly ridiculous. The angels prior to their test, did not have the beatific vision.

P.S. I’d have to argue Mary was the purest Merely human being ever to live.

 

[Lancer]

Is Free Will Taken Away?
I’ve heard countless times that humans have free will, that God had no desire to control us like puppets, orMAKE us love him**.** So at times I wonder; when we make it to Heaven…do you think we’ll still have free will?

Most people pray to God because they want him to ease the pain in their life. What will happen when there is no more pain? Will people still pray…of their own free will?

Will we not still have an urge to do wrong? One cannot assume that the choice to do wrong will be erased, being that the angels themselves chose to disobey God.

Even Adam, probably the purest of human, sinned. So in Heaven, what will stop us from sinning? And if we do sin, will we be kicked from Heaven into Hell?

In the end it is only and all about love…it is the only thing that remains in this life and in the life to come. Everything else, including pain and suffering, does not last…only love.

So if we love God the Father for who he is…Ultimate Beauty, Ultimate Truth, Ultimate Goodness, Ultimate Justice, Ultimate Love (itself),…through the mystery (ies) of Our Lord Jesus Christ (esp. his Passion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension into heaven) who is now seated at the right hand of God the Father (in his natural and glorified risen body) as the King of Kings–the Lord of Lords–the Alpha and the Omega–the Beginning and the End of all things…so if we love him** by the power of the Holy Spirit (his gifts of supernatural graces) in Faith Hope and Charity (Love)**…all else is really not that important…yes, we live in the realities of life…but more importantly, we live in the eternal reality that we have been loved into existence and we are desired by that same love to live forever in joy and happiness…and that Love is God :

1 John 4: 7-8 (New International Version)

7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

So yea, we ask for things and count on God helping us especially during the tough times…the suffering and pains and failures…but even if he lets us continue to suffer (for some ultimate good beyond our knowledge and understanding…always giving us the graces to endure and not be overcome by the trials and tribulations)…we still love HIM…it is all about loving HIM…not for what he does for us or for what we get from him…but for who he is…and because of who we have become (by the power of the Holy Spirit)…we are now (as baptized Catholics/Christians) his adopted children in Christ Jesus…that is real and that is real love.

**1 Corinthians 13: 8-13 (New International Version)
**

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Pax Christi

 

[Snerticus]

I’ve heard countless times that humans have free will, that God had no desire to control us like puppets, or MAKE us love him. So at times I wonder; when we make it to Heaven…do you think we’ll still have free will?

Most people pray to God because they want him to ease the pain in their life. What will happen when there is no more pain? Will people still pray…of their own free will?

Will we not still have an urge to do wrong? One cannot assume that the choice to do wrong will be erased, being that the angels themselves chose to disobey God.

Even Adam, probably the purest of human, sinned. So in Heaven, what will stop us from sinning? And if we do sin, will we be kicked from Heaven into Hell?

The beatific vision is the difference. Adam didn’t have that, neither did Satan. But the Angels now in heaven do and so do the Saints there, and they all still have free will. In the beatific vision, we will still have free will, but we will only want to do God’s will, not our own. In truth, we could still want to do evil, but we won’t want to because heaven is the absence of evil. With no exposure to evil, not even in our thoughts, we will constantly give thanks and praise to God in everything we do. We can’t imagine this though, because here on earth evil is present and living without it is inconceivable to us (yet very obtainable after this life).

I haven’t had a chance to read this, but here is a Wiki link to the beatific vision. It may have errors, but you can always search the Catechism for more accurate info. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatific_vision

 

[tonyrey]

I’ve heard countless times that humans have free will, that God had no desire to control us like puppets, or MAKE us love him. So at times I wonder; when we make it to Heaven…do you think we’ll still have free will?

It’s absurd to believe we no longer have free will when we die. God made us in His own image by sharing His creative power, enabling us to shape our own destiny and even frustrate His Will for all eternity. If we ceased to have free will we would be incapable of love.

You rightly point to the example of the angels who chose to disobey God. By making us free He enables us to reject Him. It may seem impossible for anyone in the presence of Perfect Love to do this but in this world we see how the lust for power can overcome everything else. The greatest temptation is to have absolute control over ourselves and others. If we adore ourselves our punishment is self-inflicted: we isolate ourselves from God and fall from grace.

There is another more inspiring possibility. Even in hell it is possible to repent and make amends. To believe a person is irrevocably damned for all eternity is to impose limits not only on our freedom but also on God’s mercy and the power of His self-sacrifice on the Cross. Even the darkest depths of hell can be illuminated by the light of His infinite love…

 

[nannyma]

It’s absurd to believe we no longer have free will when we die. God made us in His own image by sharing His creative power, enabling us to shape our own destiny and even frustrate His Will for all eternity. If we ceased to have free will we would be incapable of love.

You rightly point to the example of the angels who chose to disobey God. By making us free He enables us to reject Him. It may seem impossible for anyone in the presence of Perfect Love to do this but in this world we see how the lust for power can overcome everything else. The greatest temptation is to have absolute control over ourselves and others. If we adore ourselves our punishment is self-inflicted: we isolate ourselves from God and fall from grace.

There is another more inspiring possibility. Even in hell it is possible to repent and make amends. To believe a person is irrevocably damned for all eternity is to impose limits not only on our freedom but also on God’s mercy and the power of His self-sacrifice on the Cross. Even the darkest depths of hell can be illuminated by the light of His infinite love…

very interesting yet very upsetting! What you are claiming is “the battle is never over” it is just raised to another level??? It seems “surrender” is the key and ultimate word.Being in love with God having the fullness of goodness to our capacity and yet there is a lingering of “an” other (choice) even be it miniscule is mind shaking.!!
I would really like to believe your inspiring possibility that even in hell there is an opening,of course in accepting the first possibility you must equally accept the second on hell. "God is ALL merciful! To bring this discussion down a bit,as a parent how many times would you reprimand your child always hoping they would finally “see”.
Could you direct me to where in CCC this could be found?? Nannyma

 

[tonyrey]

very interesting yet very upsetting! What you are claiming is “the battle is never over” it is just raised to another level??? It seems “surrender” is the key and ultimate word.Being in love with God having the fullness of goodness to our capacity and yet there is a lingering of “an” other (choice) even be it miniscule is mind shaking.!!
I would really like to believe your inspiring possibility that even in hell there is an opening,of course in accepting the first possibility you must equally accept the second on hell. "God is ALL merciful! To bring this discussion down a bit,as a parent how many times would you reprimand your child always hoping they would finally “see”.
Could you direct me to where in CCC this could be found?? Nannyma

I don’t regard life in heaven as a battle. It is very unlikely that a person who is finally in the presence of God after having inevitably suffered on the way will choose to become totally independent. But if we are genuinely free that possibility will always exist.

It is far more likely that a person in hell will repent and be prepared to make amends for the suffering he/she has caused.

There is no reference to this in CCC but it doesn’t claim to be an exhaustive account of our existence

 

[cranster]

There is another more inspiring possibility. Even in hell it is possible to repent and make amends. To believe a person is irrevocably damned for all eternity is to impose limits not only on our freedom but also on God’s mercy and the power of His self-sacrifice on the Cross. Even the darkest depths of hell can be illuminated by the light of His infinite love…

The CCC disagrees with this possibility.

613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

Now to the OP,
Now is the time to choose, not after death. Our wills are so imperfect here we can’t even begin to understand the nature of a perfected will in Heaven. Nothing unclean can be in the presence of God. If we find ourselves among the Blessed and attain eternal life. ALL impurity has to be totally removed, that includes concupiscence, (the inclination to sin) that we all experience now. There can be absolutely NO inclination to sin in the presence of God. Our wills will be eternally set at the moment of death, either in desperate ill will against God and those will eternally experience hell, or set in perfect charity towards God eternally. In Heaven according to St. Katherine of Genoa’s “Treatise on Purgatory” The Blessed can have nothing but perfect charity, our thoughts will no longer turn to self but only to God and others. We can’t understand this because none of us here are pure enough to be in the presence of God.

The only way we could understand the absolute HORROR at the thought of sinning in the presence of God… Is to actually see God in His infinite power, purity, and justice. St. Katherine said that the souls in purgatory understand completely that to have even the smallest stain of imperfection on the soul that they would rather cast themselves into a thousand hells before entering the presence of God that way.

Our wills are set forever at the moment of death based on the choices we make in this life.
Now is the time to choose, merit, and work out our salvation. Every second is extremely precious.

 

[tonyrey]

The CCC disagrees with this possibility.

I don’t regard every statement in the CCC as infallible. Do you?

Our wills are set forever at the moment of death based on the choices we make in this life.

It would be unjust if our eternal destiny were determined by one moment of our existence. If our wills were eternally set we would no longer free and capable of love in heaven.

 

[cranster]

I don’t regard every statement in the CCC as infallible. Do you?

Absolutely I do. I believe that Jesus gave His Church authority to define matters of faith and morals. The Catechism is where those definitive declarations are made. Concerning Hell Jesus Himself said in
Matthew 25:41"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!", and,
Matthew 25:46 “And these shall go into EVERLASTING punishment!”

It would be unjust if our eternal destiny were determined by one moment of our existence. If our wills were eternally set we would no longer free and capable of love in heaven.

In Heaven we will be absolutely, completely, and finally free. Sin is bondage itself and the lack of freedom.The more we give into it the less free we become, until we are finally and completely bound which is hell. The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God.

It may seem unjust to our incredibly imperfect sense of justice, but when we stand in the presence of truth itself… Jesus, we will understand perfectly that if we have unrepentant mortal sin on our soul the only place for us is hell, and it lasts forever. We would not want to be in the presence of God with unrepentant mortal sin on our soul. Hell is an expression of God’s infinite and eternal Holiness, and His utter HATRED of sin. Meek, and mild Jesus mentions hell 28 times in the New Testament, and talks about eternal damnation 90 times. I really don’t think He’s playing around about hell.

You think what I’m saying is harsh you should watch “What Every Catholic Needs to Know About Hell”. It has a lot of prominent Catholic speakers talking about the Catholic dogma of hell. If I remember correctly it was Tim Staples who said, “God is infinitely Holy… infinitely Just. One unrepentant mortal sin deserves a punishment immeasurably worse than life in prison… immeasurably worse than anything you or I could fathom.”

 

[JDaniel]

Absolutely I do. I believe that Jesus gave His Church authority to define matters of faith and morals. The Catechism is where those definitive declarations are made. Concerning Hell Jesus Himself said in
Matthew 25:41"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!", and,
Matthew 25:46 “And these shall go into EVERLASTING punishment!”

In Heaven we will be absolutely, completely, and finally free. Sin is bondage itself and the lack of freedom.The more we give into it the less free we become, until we are finally and completely bound which is hell. The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God.

It may seem unjust to our incredibly imperfect sense of justice, but when we stand in the presence of truth itself… Jesus, we will understand perfectly that if we have unrepentant mortal sin on our soul the only place for us is hell, and it lasts forever. We would not want to be in the presence of God with unrepentant mortal sin on our soul. Hell is an expression of God’s infinite and eternal Holiness, and His utter HATRED of sin. Meek, and mild Jesus mentions hell 28 times in the New Testament, and talks about eternal damnation 90 times. I really don’t think He’s playing around about hell.

You think what I’m saying is harsh you should watch “What Every Catholic Needs to Know About Hell”. It has a lot of prominent Catholic speakers talking about the Catholic dogma of hell. If I remember correctly it was Tim Staples who said, “God is infinitely Holy… infinitely Just. One unrepentant mortal sin deserves a punishment immeasurably worse than life in prison… immeasurably worse than anything you or I could fathom.”

Hello, Cranster:

All of what you said being, of course, true, there is one last refuge. God knows our hearts and intentions. If I have a mortal sin that has not been absolved, but, I am sorry for it and plan to confess it next Saturday afternoon, but, this is Thursday and I am involved in an accident that takes my life, God will know my heart. Besides the obliteration of venial sin, this is also where Purgatory comes into play.

Of course, if you are stained by mortal sin and there is no repentance in your heart and no remorse, all bets are off! This life is not pre-school for Heaven. One graduates or one doesn’t.

jd

 

[tonyrey]

Absolutely I do. I believe that Jesus gave His Church authority to define matters of faith and morals. The Catechism is where those definitive declarations are made.

Can you give a reference to any authority that every statement in the Catechism is infallible?

Concerning Hell Jesus Himself said in
Matthew 25:41"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!", and,
Matthew 25:46 “And these shall go into EVERLASTING punishment!”

Do you believe that there is literally a left hand of God and literally everlasting real fire? Jesus was speaking to ordinary people not sophisticated philosophers and, as was the Jewish custom, used hyperbole in his teaching.

Meek, and mild Jesus mentions hell 28 times in the New Testament, and talks about eternal damnation 90 times. I really don’t think He’s playing around about hell.

I haven’t denied the existence of hell or underestimated the horror of being separated from God. Solitary confinement is the worst form of punishment even when it is self-inflicted.

You think what I’m saying is harsh you should watch “What Every Catholic Needs to Know About Hell”. It has a lot of prominent Catholic speakers talking about the Catholic dogma of hell. If I remember correctly it was Tim Staples who said, “God is infinitely Holy… infinitely Just. One unrepentant mortal sin deserves a punishment immeasurably worse than life in prison… immeasurably worse than anything you or I could fathom.”

Prominent Catholic speakers are not infallible… God is not only infinitely just but also infinitely merciful. It would be both unjust and unmerciful to ignore or reject the repentance of a person in hell. A finite offence can never deserve an infinite punishment. The self-sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross would be totally wasted for those who repent in hell. He died for everyone, without exception. God is not a Judge but a Saviour. He condemns no one. It is our lack of love that condemns us and we alone can remedy that - with His grace. He is the Good Shepherd who cares for His lost sheep wherever they may be… After all He is also in hell with the damned. He sustains their very existence. How could He ignore their pleas for mercy?

 

[Snerticus]

Can you give a reference to any authority that every statement in the Catechism is infallible?
Do you believe that there is literally a left hand of God and literally everlasting real fire? Jesus was speaking to ordinary people not sophisticated philosophers and, as was the Jewish custom, used hyperbole in his teaching.

I haven’t denied the existence of hell or underestimated the horror of being separated from God. Solitary confinement is the worst form of punishment even when it is self-inflicted.

Prominent Catholic speakers are not infallible… God is not only infinitely just but also infinitely merciful. It would be both unjust and unmerciful to ignore or reject the repentance of a person in hell. A finite offence can never deserve an infinite punishment. The self-sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross would be totally wasted for those who repent in hell. He died for everyone, without exception. God is not a Judge but a Saviour. He condemns no one. It is our lack of love that condemns us and we alone can remedy that - with His grace. He is the Good Shepherd who cares for His lost sheep wherever they may be… After all He is also in hell with the damned. He sustains their very existence. How could He ignore their pleas for mercy?

Can I ask you a question? Why would Jesus numerous times in the Gospels say “it would have been better if he had not been born” when describing someone going to Hell, where they “wail and gnash their teeth”? That does not sound like they will have a chance to repent once there. And I might add, Jesus is not nor was ever in Hell. He descended into hell (small “h”), which is a different place than Hell (large H - similar to tradition and Tradition which are different also) as taught by the Church.

It sounds to me like your interpretation of Hell is the Church’s interpretation of hell (otherwise known as Sheol or Hades). In those places, there is mercy. In Hell where they wail and gnash their teeth, there is not, although I need to add that to a certain extent, the existance of a Hell is merciful, but not the kind of mercy a mere mortal can grasp - certainly not something I can explain adequately.

This earth is the place where we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, not Hell.

 

[4Horsemen]

We know the reality of Hell from what Jesus, Himself, has said as was pointed out. Many saints have mentioned Hell and/or seen visions of it. Hell is the realization of God’s justice, as Purgatory is the realization of His Divine Mercy. Our Blessed Mother showed the reality of Hell to the three children, who were so horrified, they said they would have died had they not been prevented by God. The following is the account from the World Apostolate of Fatima in Lucia’s own words:

"Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror. "

Our time on earth is a trial or test for eternity. We only have one life to live, and ALL of our choices count. That is why saints are heros for having “fought the good fight.” Although many started out as sinners, they rejected a life of sin and turned to God. Being filled with His grace, they were able to make sacrifices that God uses to save sinners. For example, you might read about victim souls like St. Faustina of Divine Mercy fame and Blessed Josepha Menendez, both from the 20th century. St. Faustina reveals that God’s Mercy is even greater than His justice, and NOW is the time of Mercy.

Evil spirits in Hell have freely chosen their fate, and, if they had the chance, would still not want to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. Throughout their lives and into their deaths, they have chosen separation from the Source, Center, and Summit of our lives and of all creation besides.

 

[cranster]

Hello, Cranster:

All of what you said being, of course, true, there is one last refuge. God knows our hearts and intentions. If I have a mortal sin that has not been absolved, but, I am sorry for it and plan to confess it next Saturday afternoon, but, this is Thursday and I am involved in an accident that takes my life, God will know my heart. Besides the obliteration of venial sin, this is also where Purgatory comes into play.

Of course, if you are stained by mortal sin and there is no repentance in your heart and no remorse, all bets are off! This life is not pre-school for Heaven. One graduates or one doesn’t.

jd

I agree,
No one can fathom the infinite mercy of God. I trust that He wants us with Him more than we could ever want it for our selves.

I read somewhere… wish I could remember… oh well, that God gives us 3 opportunities on our death bed to come to final repentance.

 

[cranster]

Can you give a reference to any authority that every statement in the Catechism is infallible?
Do you believe that there is literally a left hand of God and literally everlasting real fire?

I believe there is literally a left hand of God and everlasting fire.

A finite offence can never deserve an infinite punishment.

Now there’s the rub. Who said it’s a finite offense? Especially Mortal sin. Mortal sin is an infinite offense due to the fact the One whom it’s against is infinite, namely God. When you commit a mortal offense against an infinite being the offense is infinite. Therefore, the punishment also has to be infinite, but because God’s mercy out weighs His justice, the time is infinite, but the suffering is finite. One mortal sin is an infinite offense against an infinite being which deserves an infinite amount of pain for an infinite amount of time. Fortunately God’s mercy extends to hell in that the suffering isn’t infinite. Look very closely at the Passion of our dear Lord Jesus Christ, and you will get an idea of how God views sin. It took an Infinite being to atone for our sins. Only an infinite being could bear the full weight of our iniquity… We never could. Thank you Jesus.

 

[cranster]

Can you give a reference to any authority that every statement in the Catechism is infallible?

The only authoritative reference I can find is taken from the Catechism itself… Interpret it as you will

“The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. May it serve the renewal to which the Holy Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ, on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom!”

Saying there is “forgiveness in hell”, or even the possibility, is contrary to both Jesus own words in Scripture, and the Catechism. I do personally believe that to promote idea’s which are clearly contrary to the teachings contained both in Scripture, and the Catechism, is something you do at your own peril.

 

[tonyrey]

I do personally believe that to promote ideas which are clearly contrary to the teachings contained both in Scripture, and the Catechism, is something you do at your own peril.

We should not be motivated by fear of our own damnation but by our conscience and, above all, by charity. If I am totally convinced, as I am, that our Father never ceases to love His children they are never beyond redemption by His Son’s suffering and death on the Cross. Amen.

 

[nannyma]

We know the reality of Hell from what Jesus, Himself, has said as was pointed out. Many saints have mentioned Hell and/or seen visions of it. Hell is the realization of God’s justice, as Purgatory is the realization of His Divine Mercy. Our Blessed Mother showed the reality of Hell to the three children, who were so horrified, they said they would have died had they not been prevented by God. The following is the account from the World Apostolate of Fatima in Lucia’s own words:

"Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror. "

Our time on earth is a trial or test for eternity. We only have one life to live, and ALL of our choices count. That is why saints are heros for having “fought the good fight.” Although many started out as sinners, they rejected a life of sin and turned to God. Being filled with His grace, they were able to make sacrifices that God uses to save sinners. For example, you might read about victim souls like St. Faustina of Divine Mercy fame and Blessed Josepha Menendez, both from the 20th century. St. Faustina reveals that God’s Mercy is even greater than His justice, and NOW is the time of Mercy.

Evil spirits in Hell have freely chosen their fate, and, if they had the chance, would still not want to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. Throughout their lives and into their deaths, they have chosen separation from the Source, Center, and Summit of our lives and of all creation besides.

I want to thank you for putting to rest my statement of perplexity that “the battle will not be over at our death just raised to another level” As you say this IS our time of trial and testing for eternity so we continue to “fight the good fight” and await that time when all of us must account for the good and bad choices in our lives hopefully we will have seen the “bad” ones for what they were before His face appears and sorrowfully confess again our deep repentence and look hopefully TO our most merciful Lord for final forgiveness and purification of any remnant of sin,and then in humility we shall take our place in the Kingdom. I feel a lot of the posts have come to conclusions by “finite” reasoning. How can we “finite” beings ever fathom an Infinite God ; only by His Spirit and even than how can we be sure it is not intercepted by “the evil one”. Another plus for Holy Mother Church. Thank you all for overseeing the posts,Nannyma