Is Free Will Taken Away?

[4Horsemen]

I want to thank you for putting to rest my statement of perplexity that “the battle will not be over at our death just raised to another level” As you say this IS our time of trial and testing for eternity so we continue to “fight the good fight” and await that time when all of us must account for the good and bad choices in our lives hopefully we will have seen the “bad” ones for what they were before His face appears and sorrowfully confess again our deep repentence and look hopefully TO our most merciful Lord for final forgiveness and purification of any remnant of sin,and then in humility we shall take our place in the Kingdom. I feel a lot of the posts have come to conclusions by “finite” reasoning. How can we “finite” beings ever fathom an Infinite God ; only by His Spirit and even than how can we be sure it is not intercepted by “the evil one”. Another plus for Holy Mother Church. Thank you all for overseeing the posts,Nannyma

As Scripture tells us, God’s ways are above our ways. Yes, who can know the mind of God, for his Justice and Mercy are inscrutible. We, sinners, tend to rationalize away our sin and our guilt. It’s not surprising that there are so many on trial for muder who invoke the “insanity plea.” They deny their fault. But, as mentioned above, God’s Mercy is even greater than His Justice, if we can even begin to fathom such a mystery. For hundreds of years, philosophers attempted to weigh God’s Justice and Mercy, but could not. With the approved visions of St. Faustina and the celebration of Divine Mercy Sunday, the Sunday immediately following Easter, we know that God’s Mercy calls to each of us to have mercy on one another and to trust in that Mercy in our own lives. He stands knocking at the door. Will we open the door and invite Him in? Then He will “sup” with us. (Rev.)

As for the OP, free will is part of the soul which cannot be removed. But to paraphrase another post, in Heaven the just will not turn from God because they are in complete union with Him; while in Hell, the damned and the devils/evil spirits/fallen angels will never turn to God because they are not in union with Him. Heaven is the reward for trials won on this earth. We can think of our time on earth as either a trial or an adventure. I prefer to think of it as an adventure that has the perfect ending if we do what is right, and that is following God’s commands. “You are my friends, if you keep my Commandments.” (from today’s gospel)

Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Saint John 15:12-17.

This is my commandment: love one another as I love you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. I no longer call you slaves, because a slave does not know what his master is doing. I have called you friends, because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father. It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. This I command you: love one another.

 

[AndyF]

Cure:

The elect will still have free will. The potential for influential sin will not exist has there is
no longer any being there that does any tempting. The potential for natural sin is nil has the striving for all good is accomplished. The natural state remains but is altered for an existence in purity rather than adapted for earthly existence, all blemishes,illnesses,etc removed.

The person has attained anything he may desire, so it is likely that what remains is an inner peace and joy. So the answer is the environment is so changed that your wants and priorities will change as well.

Personally, I think curiosities and a general wish to discover may still exist. But since my hobby is making machines and metal work, I’m hoping there’s a 220V, 60amp receptacle for my Lincoln buzz box(which I’m allowed to take with me of course) up there and a huge pile of metal for me to mess around with. Hope something up there needs repair! (Gotten this far, might just has well take my tractor and truck too, what the heck, maybe my…Nahhh.)

Andy

 

[dcastlen50]

​

In the end it is only and all about love…it is the only thing that remains in this life and in the life to come. Everything else, including pain and suffering, does not last…only love.

So if we love God the Father for who he is…Ultimate Beauty, Ultimate Truth, Ultimate Goodness, Ultimate Justice, Ultimate Love (itself),…through the mystery (ies) of Our Lord Jesus Christ (esp. his Passion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension into heaven) who is now seated at the right hand of God the Father (in his natural and glorified risen body) as the King of Kings–the Lord of Lords–the Alpha and the Omega–the Beginning and the End of all things…so if we love him** by the power of the Holy Spirit (his gifts of supernatural graces) in Faith Hope and Charity (Love)**…all else is really not that important…yes, we live in the realities of life…but more importantly, we live in the eternal reality that we have been loved into existence and we are desired by that same love to live forever in joy and happiness…and that Love is God :So yea, we ask for things and count on God helping us especially during the tough times…the suffering and pains and failures…but even if he lets us continue to suffer (for some ultimate good beyond our knowledge and understanding…always giving us the graces to endure and not be overcome by the trials and tribulations)…we still love HIM…it is all about loving HIM…not for what he does for us or for what we get from him…but for who he is…and because of who we have become (by the power of the Holy Spirit)…we are now (as baptized Catholics/Christians) his adopted children in Christ Jesus…that is real and that is real love.Pax Christi

 

[withallmyheart]

In our free will we either choose to love and obey God through Christ by faith or we do the opposite of this. Is life a test of faith that proves what are hearts really want, good or evil? In this life we have had our faith exercised to see who we really are, God already knows us - we just have to learn to know Him and ourselves. We either choose sin and death or goodness and life… And that life is Christ - the Holy One! If we could not love God and serve Him here doing His will, then how can we think we will want to serve Him in heaven? As others have said, it is all about love - God loving us and us loving Him. And as Jesus said, “If you love me you will obey my commandments.” If we really love the Lord, then we are going to want to obey Him and prefer His will over ours because we trust Him and He gives us grace and power to conform us into His image by our willing heart, so God has done great things for us through Christ who gives us everything we need pertaining to eternal life when we love Him. The Lord tells us “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do my Fathers will.” So the Lord is not going to magically make us want him once we have died and left this earth when we lived doing our will instead of His will nor will He makes us love Him here or in heaven. That is not love and we know that God is love! Scripture says,“the only life that pleased the Father was the Son,” because He obeyed the Father and never sinned against Him. So too, we can only please the Father unless we live our life in Christ and produce the works of Christ because we believe in Him and what He came to do, set us free and make us a holy priesthood dedicated to God the Father through Christ. In the end, scripture says that we will be judged by our works, and we know our works are as “filthy rags” to God as scripture says, so our works can only please Him if they are the works of Christ in us, when we wish to be like Christ and believe Him. Apart from Christ we cannot and do not want to please the Father or do His will. So if Christ is not in us, then heaven is a place we would not agree with since our wills were not in agreement with the Father on earth. The Lord’s prayer testifies to our hearts this truth…

I used to think the same about free will, but as I have grown in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus I have realized this truth, and scriptures confirm it too…
God knows the hearts of all men, and if our hearts are truthful He draws us more and more to Christ, who is our Lord!! Trusting in Him we will never be put to shame!

Sincerely for the love of Christ!

 

[Monergist]

I’ve heard countless times that humans have free will, that God had no desire to control us like puppets, or MAKE us love him. So at times I wonder; when we make it to Heaven…do you think we’ll still have free will?

Most people pray to God because they want him to ease the pain in their life. What will happen when there is no more pain? Will people still pray…of their own free will?

Will we not still have an urge to do wrong? One cannot assume that the choice to do wrong will be erased, being that the angels themselves chose to disobey God.

Even Adam, probably the purest of human, sinned. So in Heaven, what will stop us from sinning? And if we do sin, will we be kicked from Heaven into Hell?

Pre-fall, humanity was able to sin.
After the fall, humanity is unable to not sin.
Upon restoration to God, we are unable to sin.

In all cases, humanity has a free will that comports to our nature. That is not a totally free will, but it is a will nonetheless.

 

[grannymh]

Free will is an ability that can only be exercised in a material/physical world where there are choices.

 

[4Horsemen]

Free will is an ability that can only be exercised in a material/physical world where there are choices.

Hi grannymh!

I think that free will is a part of the soul that is not removed in Heaven, but once we leave the material/physical world and enter Heaven, maybe after a brief (?) stint in Purgatory , our will is in perfect union with God’s. So on one level I think your statement is true, but on another level, our will is totally united to God’s and continuously “exercised” in Him.

 

[grannymh]

Hi grannymh!

I think that free will is a part of the soul that is not removed in Heaven, but once we leave the material/physical world and enter Heaven, maybe after a brief (?) stint in Purgatory , our will is in perfect union with God’s. So on one level I think your statement is true, but on another level, our will is totally united to God’s and continuously “exercised” in Him.

Hi 4Horsemen,

For the record. My stint in Purgatory is going to be a long one. In fact, there is a reserved seat in the back row.

Regarding my statement which you referred to: “Free will is an ability that can only be exercised in a material/physical world where there are choices.” You are very observant. That is only one level. What do you think about this Catechism statement I accidentally found: “As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning.” paragraph 1732, Catechism italics.

This sounds like your statement “our will is in perfect union with God’s”. Though I wonder if there is any reason to exercise free will in heaven. I sure wouldn’t want to face temptation again. My reserved seat in Purgatory may be moved to the lower level.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is meant for eternal life.

 

[PJM]

=Cure;5191024]I’ve heard countless times that humans have free will, that God had no desire to control us like puppets, or MAKE us love him. So at times I wonder; when we make it to Heaven…do you think we’ll still have free will?

Will we? Yes.

The better question might be, how will we freely choose to use it?

Isaiah 43 18 “Remember not the former things, nor consider the things of old. 19 Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert. 20 The wild beasts will honor me, the jackals and the ostriches; for I give water in the wilderness, rivers in the desert, to give drink to my chosen people, **21 the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.” **

Two unasked questions are:

Why was humanity Created?

Why was humanity Created “in the Image and likeness of God?” [Gen. 1]

As we can see in Isaiah 43 God Himself provides the answer. “That they MIGHT declare My Praise.”

Remember the Baltimore Catechesim’s question: “why did God make us?” Answer: “to know love and serve Him in this world, so that we will be happy with Him in the next.” Say’s the same as Isaiah 43

Most people pray to God because they want him to ease the pain in their life. What will happen when there is no more pain? Will people still pray…of their own free will?

Will we not still have an urge to do wrong? One cannot assume that the choice to do wrong will be erased, being that the angels themselves chose to disobey God.

Having attained the very purpose for which we were Created, our ONLY Desire to be to Love, Honor and Worship God. We retain our “freewill” but having found the very reason for our existence, we will desire nothing else!

We can know this because:

God is and has to be Perfect

We have to be “Perfected” in order to gain access to heaven

Thus Heaven itself MUST BE Perfect! And thus we will find Perfect happiness and contentment in heaven, praising, loving and worshiping God.

Even Adam, probably the purest of human, sinned. So in Heaven, what will stop us from sinning? And if we do sin, will we be kicked from Heaven into Hell?

We will be filled with Perfect Love for a Perfect God in a Perfect Heaven. The key is the word PERFECT, (so full full that no room exist for anything else.)

Love and prayer’s

 

[tonyrey]

Though I wonder if there is any reason to exercise free will in heaven.

If we do not have free will in heaven we are incapable of love in the fullest sense of the word. How can we love if we have no choice in the matter? If spiritual beings can choose to alienate themselves from God so can we!

 

[grannymh]

If we do not have free will in heaven we are incapable of love in the fullest sense of the word. How can we love if we have no choice in the matter? If spiritual beings can choose to alienate themselves from God so can we!

When one makes a definitive choice to love God meaning that the choice is precisely defined and explicit in character and it is a final settlement or decision which serves as a conclusion to one’s life, there is no need or reason to keep making the same choice over and over again in heaven.

In other words, this kind of definitive choice to love God is a one time only choice at death. A one time choice in no way implies that we are incapable of love. In fact, it is the highest form or most perfect form of love in that any kind of alienation will never happen. A one time permanent choice by definition and form does not have to be repeated to be valid.

If by spiritual beings you mean angels, they are apples and we are oranges.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred from the moment of conception.

 

[PJM]

=tonyrey;5240172]If we do not have free will in heaven we are incapable of love in the fullest sense of the word. How can we love if we have no choice in the matter? If spiritual beings can choose to alienate themselves from God so can we!

Not to worry.

The only path to heaven is in and through love.

God Himself is Perfect Love.

We will be so perfected ourselves in heaven that we will desire nothing but to Love God, as God has loved us.

 

[4Horsemen]

Hi 4Horsemen,

For the record. My stint in Purgatory is going to be a long one. In fact, there is a reserved seat in the back row.

Regarding my statement which you referred to: “Free will is an ability that can only be exercised in a material/physical world where there are choices.” You are very observant. That is only one level. What do you think about this Catechism statement I accidentally found: "As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning." paragraph 1732, Catechism italics.
This sounds like your statement “our will is in perfect union with God’s”. Though I wonder if there is any reason to exercise free will in heaven. I sure wouldn’t want to face temptation again. My reserved seat in Purgatory may be moved to the lower level.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is meant for eternal life.

Regarding the statement you cited from the Catechism, my thinking is that it is only on earth that freedom or free will “has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God. . .” Although we are redeemed, our lives are in travail. We must be continuously purified as “gold refined in fire”, so that we can be presented as a clean and holy vessel to the Father. It is only through the “blood of the Lamb” that we can be purified. The Holy Spirit enters inside to renew us daily, if we allow Him. In Heaven, there is no need of purification. Any remaining purification (purgation) continues in Purgatory. Spiritual writers (especially the great saints) seem to agree that few go straight to Heaven. According to St. Faustina, however, it isn’t necessarily the number of sins that detemine our stay, or even the kind of sins, but how much love and complete trust we have in God’s Mercy. In other words, a pure act of love at the time of death can cover many sins. Caution: it is choices in our life, the rehearsals, so to speak, that prepare the way for the final curtain. :heaven:

 

[4Horsemen]

When one makes a definitive choice to love God meaning that the choice is precisely defined and explicit in character and it is a final settlement or decision which serves as a conclusion to one’s life, there is no need or reason to keep making the same choice over and over again in heaven.

In other words, this kind of definitive choice to love God is a one time only choice at death. A one time choice in no way implies that we are incapable of love. In fact, it is the highest form or most perfect form of love in that any kind of alienation will never happen. A one time permanent choice by definition and form does not have to be repeated to be valid.

If by spiritual beings you mean angels, they are apples and we are oranges.

Hi grannymh,

The question about spiritual beings, or angels, is interesting in that we don’t know for sure if their free will was only “exercised” at one point (in time???) somewhere at the beginning of Creation (when St. Michael fought an intellectual battle with Lucifer–the angel of “light”) or if they continuously exercise their free will in union with God so that there could possibly be no defections after that point of “choice.” My understanding is that there was only a one-time chance for these spiritual beings to choose to be unitied with God or to be alienated from Him. But I think they continuously choose to be united with God, just as the demons continuously choose to be apart.

P.S. I read on another thread somewhere that even in Hell, the devils are punished for the evil they do in this world (continuous choices). I wonder about that. . .

God bless!
4Horsemen

 

[severntofall]

I’ve heard countless times that humans have free will, that God had no desire to control us like puppets, or MAKE us love him. So at times I wonder; when we make it to Heaven…do you think we’ll still have free will?

Most people pray to God because they want him to ease the pain in their life. What will happen when there is no more pain? Will people still pray…of their own free will?

Will we not still have an urge to do wrong? One cannot assume that the choice to do wrong will be erased, being that the angels themselves chose to disobey God.

Even Adam, probably the purest of human, sinned. So in Heaven, what will stop us from sinning? And if we do sin, will we be kicked from Heaven into Hell?

What is free will anyway?

youtube.com/watch?v=H0wSjJAsrAk&feature=PlayList&p=1CE5D4A0E35E651C&index=2

youtube.com/watch?v=aUtSM2oVy_E&feature=PlayList&p=1CE5D4A0E35E651C&index=0&playnext=1

 

[grannymh]

What is free will anyway?

youtube.com/watch?v=H0wSjJAsrAk&feature=PlayList&p=1CE5D4A0E35E651C&index=2

youtube.com/watch?v=aUtSM2oVy_E&feature=PlayList&p=1CE5D4A0E35E651C&index=0&playnext=1

Sorry, severntofall, I don’t have sound so no youtube.

Free will is the ability or power to prefer one possibility over another possibility or not to prefer any possibility.

Blessings,
granny

Bible means – basic instructions before leaving earth

 

[PJM]

=severntofall;5253594]What is free will anyway?

youtube.com/watch?v=H0wSjJAsrAk&feature=PlayList&p=1CE5D4A0E35E651C&index=2

**Originally Posted by grannymh **
Hi 4Horsemen,

For the record. My stint in Purgatory is going to be a long one. In fact, there is a reserved seat in the back row.

Blessings,
granny

It does not have to be this way. Works of Charity and Mercy lessen the “latent effects of sin” and it’s possible to earn both partial and “plenary” {TOTAL} Indulgences = forgiveness of both all sins and all of the effects of sin.

Pray also for a “happy death” (Last Rites) as they have the potential of the same effect as the Sacrament of Baptism. Instant heaven upon death!

"Freewill" is a free unearned and unmerited GIFT from God, and along with our intellects and minds, are given to us for the very precise application of knowing, loving, and praising God in this world that He Created, so that we may enjoy heaven with Him in the next word.

"It is “free” in that its a GIFT, and its “free” in that its use and application is totally unencumbered, and it is we and we alone, that exercise it as we see and deem fit.

By the fact that YOU CHOSE to participate on CAF, chose you’re question / comment, we have indispuitable evidence that you and I, indeed all humanity are Blessed with all three of these SPITITUAL GIGTS.

We can know with absolute certainity **that they are Spiritual **because as I have just done, we can give evidence that they exist. Yet if I ask you to quantify for us you’re “mind” [not brain] mind, how big, long, wide color and shape; you can’t. We could do the same with "intellect and “freewill.”

**Because something cannot share what someting does not have, ** and conversely can ONLY share what something has, and we are “physical” beings, we can conclude that their MUST BE another source of these GIFTS.

God is SPIRIT, no one has ever seen God the Father ot the Holy Spirit, we know they exist because of the Bible and the Teachings of Jesus, who is uniquely God and man at the smane time. Two Natures and two Wills. Divine and human.

Love and prayers,

 

[nannyma]

I don’t regard every statement in the CCC as infallible. Do you?
It would be unjust if our eternal destiny were determined by one moment of our existence. If our wills were eternally set we would no longer free and capable of love in heaven.

I am the one that said:"at the last battle the war is won at our death (hopefully). But I’ve been thinking. In the psalm it says: The heavens (plural) proclaim the glory of the Lord! If there is progressive movement in heaven how would this be accomplished? In heaven we will see clearly,our striving will be pure and centered in God. When we see others in their perfections- which are above or below us- we accept because we are “living in the eternal truth” Our striving will not be an earthly work. nannyma

 

[foundthelight]

Pre-fall, humanity was able to sin.
After the fall, humanity is unable to not sin.
Upon restoration to God, we are unable to sin.

In all cases, humanity has a free will that comports to our nature. That is not a totally free will, but it is a will nonetheless.

If, in reference to what I bolded above, you are saying that we will be unable to sin in Heaven, I agree.

If you are saying that after coming to Christ as Lord and Savior we are unable to sin, I strongly disagree.

 

[grannymh]

It does not have to be this way. Works of Charity and Mercy lessen the “latent effects of sin” and it’s possible to earn both partial and “plenary” {TOTAL} Indulgences = forgiveness of both all sins and all of the effects of sin.
Love and prayers,

You are right about works and Charity and Mercy. However, I do have to add a correction about indulgences.

Indulgences do not forgive sins.

The usual means of forgiving sins is the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Sin involves both guilt and liability. The Sacrament of Reconciliation removes all guilt and, in cases of mortal sin, the eternal punishment of Hell. This does not rule out the liability for temporal punishment (lasting a limited time) which is understood as merciful justice, i.e., how a soul is purified. Purgatory is considered temporal punishment. Indulgences, which are usually attached to an act or prayer, signify that some of the temporal punishment for our sins is being removed.

Neither does a plenary indulgence forgive sins. In fact, in order to gain a plenary indulgence, one has to be in the state of sanctifying grace and free from attachment to sin. A plenary indulgence does remit the temporal punishment due for past sins.

You gave some wonderful aspects of free will. They are good reminders about how good God really is. We are so blessed. And it is good to talk about the spiritual in our material world.

Thank you.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is meant for eternal life.