Is Free Will Taken Away?

[PJM]

Originally Posted by tonyrey
I don’t regard every statement in the CCC as infallible. Do you?
It would be unjust if our eternal destiny were determined by one moment of our existence. If our wills were eternally set we would no longer free and capable of love in heaven.

The reply

I am the one that said:"at the last battle the war is won at our death (hopefully). But I’ve been thinking. In the psalm it says: The heavens (plural) proclaim the glory of the Lord! If there is progressive movement in heaven how would this be accomplished? In heaven we will see clearly,our striving will be pure and centered in God. When we see others in their perfections- which are above or below us- we accept because we are “living in the eternal truth” Our striving will not be an earthly work. nannyma

** tonyrey **

My dear friend in Christ,

Please permit me to share with you the position of the RCC on the Catechesim.

The RCC uses a level of grading documents on there “Binding Authority.”

Level one always and everywhere binding
to Level five, which binds only those to whom the document is specifically addressed.

The Catechism is a Level 1 document as is the Code of Canon Law which mandates the following.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND,NO accusations are being levelrd; this is strictly information you need to be aware of:thumbsup:

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

In other words a TEACHING need not be “Infallibly pronounced” in order to have what ammounts to the same BINDING AUTHORITY:thumbsup:

Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.

Can. 754 All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth.

The BOLD verses apply to the Catecheism. Obedience to all is required, and its not a personal option to refuse.

Perhaps if you’d care to share you’re issues of disagreement, we might be able to futher expalin the teaching in question?

One is either an IPRC [informed, practicing, Roman Catholic] totally, or one simply is not a Catholic.

To: nanyma

Very insightful post, but why heavens (plural} and not heaven singular? There is only one

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[tonyrey]

Please permit me to share with you the position of the RCC on the Catechism.

** 1057 **Hell’s principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

The Church does not state that there is anyone in hell - apart from Satan and his followers. It is a possibility that some human beings are there but not a fact.

 

[nannyma]

The reply

** tonyrey **

My dear friend in Christ,

Please permit me to share with you the position of the RCC on the Catechesim.

The RCC uses a level of grading documents on there “Binding Authority.”

Level one always and everywhere binding
to Level five, which binds only those to whom the document is specifically addressed.

The Catechism is a Level 1 document as is the Code of Canon Law which mandates the following.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND,NO accusations are being levelrd; this is strictly information you need to be aware of:thumbsup:

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

In other words a TEACHING need not be “Infallibly pronounced” in order to have what ammounts to the same BINDING AUTHORITY:thumbsup:

Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.

Can. 754 All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth.

The BOLD verses apply to the Catecheism. Obedience to all is required, and its not a personal option to refuse.

Perhaps if you’d care to share you’re issues of disagreement, we might be able to futher expalin the teaching in question?

One is either an IPRC [informed, practicing, Roman Catholic] totally, or one simply is not a Catholic.

To: nanyma

Very insightful post, but why heavens (plural} and not heaven singular? There is only one

Love and prayers,
PatHello Pat,I said heavens in the plural because it is done so in many of the psalms. I don’t think anyone would dispute there are levels of sanctity,would not there be also heavens to accommodate. We have all heard the expression I’m sure with a biblical source “… in the highest heaven!” thank you, nannyma

 

[grannymh]

Hello Pat,I said heavens in the plural because it is done so in many of the psalms. I don’t think anyone would dispute there are levels of sanctity,would not there be also heavens to accommodate. We have all heard the expression I’m sure with a biblical source “… in the highest heaven!” thank you, nannyma

Is anyone old enough to remember the phrase – Heaven is the Beatific Vision – and what that means means ? ? ?

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by PJM
Please permit me to share with you the position of the RCC on the Catechism.

The reply

1057 Hell’s principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

The Church does not state that there is anyone in hell - apart from Satan and his followers. It is a possibility that some human beings are there but not a fact.

My answer

The catechism: "1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: **either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation. **

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love."

God is a must be JUST and FAIR… how many prople do you know by their lives actions, there faith practice are destined NOT [did not say “predestined”] if they continue in the way to live, sex ourside of marriage, supporting abortion and those that do the same, do not regularlly pray and sacriifce, ignore the 10 [all 10] Commandnments] how many people do you know are pointing towards eternal Hell. If you’re honest a lot more than who are heading to heaven!

Mt. 5: 21"You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother * shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults * his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny"

Mk/ 9: 42 "“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, * it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, * cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, * to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.”

2 Pet. 2: 4 "For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell * and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven other persons, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example to those who were to be ungodly; and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the wicked (for by what that righteous man saw and heard as he lived among them, he was vexed in his righteous soul day after day with their lawless deeds), then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority

Luke 12: 4 "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; * yes, I tell you, fear him! "

You’re free to make you’re own choices!

 

[nannyma]

Is anyone old enough to remember the phrase – Heaven is the Beatific Vision – and what that means means ? ? ?

Hello grannynh, Do I remember the “Beatific Vision” Of COURSE I DO, !SORRY!I got side-swiped into a “cubicle!” nannyma

 

[PJM]

=nannyma;5266464]Hello grannyma, Do I remember the “Beatific Vision” Of COURSE I DO, !SORRY!I got side-swiped into a “cubicle!” nannyma

I’m not as old as nannyma, but sure I remember…

"The Beatific Vision is the Indescribable sense of love, joy and peace we will have when we meet God face to face."

**1 Cor. 13: 9 "For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; 10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. **Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. "

Darn, its Sunday, I gotta tell the truth, I likely am as old a annnma!