Is Freewill compatible with Determinism?

[MindOverMatter2]

Yes.

Explain what the “free agent” is.

If we accept that our experience of intellectual freedom relates to an objective fact (a fact that we take for granted every-time we reason with each-other and claim true knowledge), then we have no rational choice but to believe that the rational-will, while certainly having a kind of unity and correlation with physical events, is not itself entirely subject to physical events and is therefore in fact not physical. But in accepting that it is non-physical doesn’t mean that I know what it “is”. Its merely a negation of the physical as a sufficient grounds for freewill.

We unconsciously and indirectly agree with this position every-time we think that we are reasoning or acting freely despite the fact that most of us rarely consider the metaphysical implications involved.

 

[Jaaanosik]

If we accept that our experience of intellectual freedom relates to an objective fact (a fact that we take for granted every-time we reason with each-other and claim true knowledge), then we have no rational choice but to believe that the rational-will, while certainly having a kind of unity and correlation with physical events, is not itself entirely subject to physical events and is therefore in fact not physical. But in accepting that it is non-physical doesn’t mean that I know what it “is”. Its merely a negation of the physical as a sufficient grounds for freewill.

We unconsciously and indirectly agree with this position every-time we think that we are reasoning or acting freely despite the fact that most of us rarely consider the metaphysical implications involved.

How do we know it’s non-physical?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

How do we know it’s non-physical?

Have you been following the thread?

 

[Jaaanosik]

Have you been following the thread?

Yes, you have a goal, there are three options to get there. You estimate they are equal, you choose one, you exercised your free will. Is that correct?

I am serious, how do we know it’s non-physical?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

.

I am serious, how do we know it’s non-physical?

Do you really want me to answer that question, or are you just teasing me?

 

[Jaaanosik]

.

Do you really want me to answer that question, or are you just teasing me?

I said I am serious, please, answer the question.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I said I am serious, please, answer the question.

I can only answers the question if the physical processes in my brain determine that end

 

[Jaaanosik]

I can only answers the question if the physical processes in my brain determine that end

Is free will part of human soul? A soul is God’s creation. It has dimensions. Let’s call them spiritual dimensions.
The question is how are the spiritual dimensions linked to our brain?

Is thinking happening in brain or spiritual dimensions?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Is free will part of human soul? A soul is God’s creation. It has dimensions. Let’s call them spiritual dimensions.
The question is how are the spiritual dimensions linked to our brain?

God has made up principles that govern the correlation between mind and matter. God wills that the physical to a certain extent should respond to your will.

I don’t know how. But I dare say that he has set it up so that what ever the mind wills God actualises in the physical using the laws he set in place.

 

[Jaaanosik]

God has made up principles that govern the correlation between mind and matter. God wills that the physical to a certain extent should respond to your will.

I don’t know how. But I dare say that he has set it up so that what ever the mind wills God actualises in the physical using the laws he set in place.

The mind has to have dimensions. Is that correct?
When you think, when your mind wills, where is that happening?
Is it in your brain or is the mind part of the spiritual dimensions and thinking is happening there?

So does ‘non-physical’ mean spiritual dimensions?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

The mind has to have dimensions. Is that correct?
When you think, when your mind wills, where is that happening?
Is it in your brain or is the mind part of the spiritual dimensions and thinking is happening there?

So does ‘non-physical’ mean spiritual dimensions?

Why do you want to know?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I don’t want to share my knowledge any more. Its mine; it belongs to me.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Why do you want to know?

Because I would like to know how you can talk about a relation between free will and determinism if we don’t know what and where is the free will.

 

[Jaaanosik]

I don’t want to share my knowledge any more. Its mine; it belongs to me.

Sometimes it’s OK to say we don’t have the knowledge. Don’t be said.

Edit: Actually it’s mad emoticon. So don’t be mad.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Because I would like to know how you can talk about a relation between free will and determinism if we don’t know what and where is the free will.

You don’t know what freewill is? Tough, I am not telling you.

As for where the free will is; it irrelevant. If physicality cannot be the source of freewill, then physicality is negated as soon as you accept the existence of freewill. What freewill consists of without physicality, is of secondary importance.

Its mine, it belongs to me. I am not telling you any-more.

 

[Al_Moritz]

As for where the free will is; it irrelevant. If physicality cannot be the source of freewill, then physicality is negated as soon as you accept the existence of freewill. What freewill consists of without physicality, is of secondary importance.

That is correct. Compare that with science for example: scientists know from the speed of galaxy rotation and from gravitational lensing that something like dark matter must exist. Now they are looking for it. Do they know what dark matter is? No, they don’t have a clue whatsoever. But to know the existence of something you don’t always have to know what it is.

Or take Newton’s gravity. Newton correctly postulated that gravity exists and he could calculate with it and explain a whole lot of natural phenomena. Could he explain what gravity is? No, he couldn’t. Still, his work was an absolute revolution in science, and he is considered one of the two greatest physicists that ever lived up to now, the other being Einstein.

To reasonably postulate that non-physical freewill must exist, I do not have to know what exactly it is, how it interacts with the brain, if it has any spatial extension, etc.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

That is correct. Compare that with science for example: scientists know from the speed of galaxy rotation and from gravitational lensing that something like dark matter must exist. Now they are looking for it. Do they know what dark matter is? No, they don’t have a clue whatsoever. But to know the existence of something you don’t always have to know what it is.

Or take Newton’s gravity. Newton correctly postulated that gravity exists and he could calculate with it and explain a whole lot of natural phenomena. Could he explain what gravity is? No, he couldn’t. Still, his work was an absolute revolution in science, and he is considered one of the two greatest physicists that ever lived up to now, the other being Einstein.

To reasonably postulate that non-physical freewill must exist, I do not have to know what exactly it is, how it interacts with the brain, if it has any spatial extension, etc.

Thanks for the additional analogies and demonstrations. Clear and precise; it stops the pseudo-scientists from using science as a counter attack.

I agree with you. Science is well known for this kind of inference, and it is legitimate.
We would never get anywhere if we had to know everything about an object before inferring its reality. It is enough to know that physical reality is intrinsically limited insofar as providing a sufficient explanation for any meaningful kind of freewill. The two concepts involved are essentially distinct in functionality.

 

[Bobber90]

Whatever vision of the universe free will relies upon - dualistic or not - isn’t free will ultimately dependent upon decision-making reasoning, and this upon the physical realm? Indeed, isn’t reasoning effective because it is causally determined instead of being free to take flights of fancy? I do not see how any of this concentration on dualism makes free will free.

 

[grannymh]

It is my position that freewill is limited. For example we have to make a choice. It impossible not to make a choice, and any choice we do make will necessarily be what we think is good or the best. Thus we are determined, to an extent, to various ends according what we think is good. A Christian would have to say that we are forced to act for the good. However, we do have the freedom to “reason” about what is the greatest good and it is possible for us to make sacrifices. For example chilling back and relaxing is a good; and we choose because it is a good in itself; but if we see a that our chilling back means that somebody will suffer as a result; we are free to reason that it would be good to sacrifice chilling back.

When you say “it is impossible not to make a choice.” does this include the freedom not to make any choice? Usually, we hear about the choice to fight or flee; yet, there is a third choice which is freeze.

By the way, people often say that it is our intellective skills which distinguish us from non-human animals. I have been considering that it is really our ability to make informed choices and carry them out which distinguishes us from other species.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect.

 

[Al_Moritz]

By the way, people often say that it is our intellective skills which distinguish us from non-human animals. I have been considering that it is really our ability to make informed choices and carry them out which distinguishes us from other species.

Our intellective skills, our rationality, depend on freewill.