Is frugality advice realistic?

[Xantippe]

I remember talking to one of my older female relatives, who was explaining that she literally couldn’t afford to make muffins. (We make a lot of muffins at our house, or at least my husband does and my relative was saying she couldn’t do that.) In the time that it would take her to make a batch of muffins, she could probably see another client or knock out another $100 project, so if we value a dozen muffins at $6 and assume an hour of work to mix up and bake muffins, every batch of muffins represented a $94 loss to her. (I’m not actually sure that she only makes $100 an hour and all the numbers are rough, and we’re not accounting for the cost of materials, but it’s a handy number, and I’m sure she makes at least that, so I’ll just use that as an illustration.)

Of course, my older female relative probably would HATE making muffins and my husband (our muffin maker) is very fond of making and eating homemade muffins and one’s subjective feelings about an activity do enter into how “costly” it is to one.

Likewise, a lot of people would probably hate jam-making with a fiery passion, and their dislike of the activity would make jam-making more “expensive” for them than it might be for people that find it an enjoyable leisure activity.

That’s how I feel about what I hear about cloth diapering–it would be much more psychically expensive for me than it sounds like it is for Pensmama87.

There’s an interesting metaphor for the psychic costs called “spoon theory.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory

“The spoon theory is a model used by some disabled people and people with chronic illness to describe their everyday living experience when their disability or illness results in a reduced amount of energy available for productive tasks. Spoons are an intangible unit of measurement used to track how much energy a person has throughout a given day. Each activity “costs” a certain number of spoons, which might not be replaced until the next day. A person who runs out of spoons loses the ability to do anything other than rest. One of the tenets of the spoon theory is that disabled or ill people must plan their activities to ensure that every day is manageable, while healthy people have a “never-ending supply of spoons” and thus never need to worry about running out.”

I think that there’s a problem with this description, namely that even healthy people do not have unlimited spoons/energy–it’s just that they have more than sick or disabled people. But even healthy people need to budget their energy and efforts appropriately, because their time and energy is not literally unlimited.

 

[Xantippe]

The kitchen full of people spanning all generations of a huge extended family all cooking food based on old family recipes is very much a part of my experience. I don’t get to see it now, living away from family in the east, but all I have to do is fly west and see it again.

I now see how blessed I was.

I think it’s not a cultural universal (especially not in the US).

In my family, which is very WASP, there’s almost no joint cooking. After big family parties (which tend to be potluck now that our matriarch has hit 90), there is shared dishwashing and cleaning up, but pretty much every woman in my family would rather die than have another adult woman cooking in her kitchen.

 

[Allegra]

I remember talking to one of my older female relatives, who was explaining that she literally couldn’t afford to make muffins. (We make a lot of muffins at our house, or at least my husband does and my relative was saying she couldn’t do that.) In the time that it would take her to make a batch of muffins, she could probably see another client or knock out another $100 project, so if we value a dozen muffins at $6 and assume an hour of work to mix up and bake muffins, every batch of muffins represented a $94 loss to her. (I’m not actually sure that she only makes $100 an hour and all the numbers are rough, and we’re not accounting for the cost of materials, but it’s a handy number, and I’m sure she makes at least that, so I’ll just use that as an illustration.)

Of course, my older female relative probably would HATE making muffins and my husband (our muffin maker) is very fond of making and eating homemade muffins and one’s subjective feelings about an activity do enter into how “costly” it is to one.

Likewise, a lot of people would probably hate jam-making with a fiery passion, and their dislike of the activity would make jam-making more “expensive” for them than it might be for people that find it an enjoyable leisure activity.

That’s how I feel about what I hear about cloth diapering–it would be much more psychically expensive for me than it sounds like it is for Pensmama87.

There’s an interesting metaphor for the psychic costs called “spoon theory.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory

“The spoon theory is a model used by some disabled people and people with chronic illness to describe their everyday living experience when their disability or illness results in a reduced amount of energy available for productive tasks. Spoons are an intangible unit of measurement used to track how much energy a person has throughout a given day. Each activity “costs” a certain number of spoons, which might not be replaced until the next day. A person who runs out of spoons loses the ability to do anything other than rest. One of the tenets of the spoon theory is that disabled or ill people must plan their activities to ensure that every day is manageable, while healthy people have a “never-ending supply of spoons” and thus never need to worry about running out.”

I think that there’s a problem with this description, namely that even healthy people do not have unlimited spoons/energy–it’s just that they have more than sick or disabled people. But even healthy people need to budget their energy and efforts appropriately, because their time and energy is not literally unlimited.

It definitely seems cheaper if you like doing the things, or at least don’t hate it.

 

[Xantippe]

It definitely seems cheaper if you like doing the things, or at least don’t hate it.

Right.

 

[Kelfa28]

It definitely seems cheaper if you like doing the things, or at least don’t hate it.

Or aren’t totally overwhelmed…

No, I agree. I stopped doing quite a lot of “frugal” things because it wasn’t appealing to me.

One thing I know I will probably always do is repair fabrics with my sewing skills.

When I was still seriously involved in ballet…I’d be sewing a whole lot of pointe shoes.

I got pretty good and efficient at it and I also didn’t mind it too much. It was relaxing.

Plus, I had a decent home ec teacher in middle school and my grandmother was a seamstress…and my mom was a professional ballet dancer for a short period of time.

They all taught me how to sew, make repairs and sew on buttons.

 

[Allegra]

Or aren’t totally overwhelmed…

No, I agree. I stopped doing quite a lot of “frugal” things because it wasn’t appealing to me.

One thing I know I will probably always do is repair fabrics with my sewing skills.

When I was still seriously involved in ballet…I’d be sewing a whole lot of pointe shoes.

I got pretty good and efficient at it and I also didn’t mind it too much. It was relaxing.

Plus, I had a decent home ec teacher in middle school and my grandmother was a seamstress…and my mom was a professional ballet dancer for a short period of time.

They all taught me how to sew, make repairs and sew on buttons.

My mom made sure that all of us knew the basic ins and outs of a sewing machine and how to sew on a button. I mean, it’s just flat out dumb to throw something nice out over a button. A five year old could figure out how to sew a button! Even my brothers learned how to thread a bobbin and start up the machine. Once, my brother was told that he could wear black work shorts at his restaurant job, if he was working outside on the patio. He looked at the catalogue and was so mad to find out how much a pair of work shorts cost. He proceeded to come home and take a pair of old work pants that he’d torn in the knee and cut and hem them into shorts. We were all amazed as we’d never seen him so motivated! His manager was so impressed, she paid him $10 a pair to do hers.

 

[Kelfa28]

My mom made sure that all of us knew the basic ins and outs of a sewing machine and how to sew on a button. I mean, it’s just flat out dumb to throw something nice out over a button. A five year old could figure out how to sew a button! Even my brothers learned how to thread a bobbin and start up the machine. Once, my brother was told that he could wear black work shorts at his restaurant job, if he was working outside on the patio. He looked at the catalogue and was so mad to find out how much a pair of work shorts cost. He proceeded to come home and take a pair of old work pants that he’d torn in the knee and cut and hem them into shorts. We were all amazed as we’d never seen him so motivated! His manager was so impressed, she paid him $10 a pair to do hers.

Yeah…there are two or three somewhat “girly” things that all men should know how to do.

Laundry, ironing and sewing repairs.

My husband can make simple sewing repairs (buttons and tears) and he is great at ironing.
Actually he irons most of my things.

 

[Allegra]

Yeah…there are two or three somewhat “girly” things that all men should know how to do.

Laundry, ironing and sewing repairs.

My husband can make simple sewing repairs (buttons and tears) and he is great at ironing.
Actually he irons most of my things.

Almost all of my clothes are ready wear. The only things I ever iron are table linen. Furthermore, I hate ironing, so if the man wants his stuff ironed…he’s on his own.

 

[Kelfa28]

Almost all of my clothes are ready wear. The only things I ever iron are table linen. Furthermore, I hate ironing, so if the man wants his stuff ironed…he’s on his own.

My civilian clothes are ready wear.

My military uniforms…are not.

Which is one reason why my husband takes care of it…between dress shirts and pants for Church and all of the gosh darn uniforms…as well as 15 years of experience.

He does the ironing in this household…I can’t be bothered.

 

[MJJean]

My frugality begins when other people’s frugality ends.

I have lovely furniture and appliances I found gently used and in excellent condition for less than 1/4 the cost of new simply because someone redecorates every year or bought something that doesn’t fit their home the way they thought it would.

Craigslist is my friend! If I need to replace something I know I’ll find it for a great deal as long as I check a few times a day or so. About 5 to 10 minutes each check. Not much time at all for the amount of money I save.

I buy most clothes at the thrift store. I even get the kids school uniforms there. Name brand clothes that look new do take some time to find and I’ll do a couple of trips over a period of a few weeks, but I get the kids uniforms and regular clothes for less than a total of $300 a year.

Most of my food is store brands and I have a deep freeze to take advantage of sales. I shop at the local farmers market in season for ridiculously cheap fruits and veggies.

I get a lot of my cleaners and random household items at the Dollar Store. I do spend on detergent, but only because one of my kids has sensitive skin.

I do a lot of my own household and auto repairs myself and have the kids act as assistants. Even a toddler can pass the screwdriver. And kids of all ages really seem to like seeing how things work and are proud to say they helped.

Appliance repairs depend on the price of parts. Sometimes, it’s easier and about the same cost to replace at a used appliance shop with a warranty than to buy the part.

We do our own yard work as a family and we also wash the car and van at home.

We do our own mani-pedis. The boys cut their own hair using clippers and different guards for style.

We eat out very rarely.

We’re cancelling cable, internet, and phone to switch over to internet only with Netflix and Hulu subscriptions to save about $100 per month. We realized we’re paying out the nose for hundreds of channels we never watch. Took me forever to convince DH, but he finally agreed and I hope to complete the switch over this week.

 

[pianistclare]

And likewise, I find your old world picture of a kitchen full of bustling grandmas and aunties and sisters toiling over the jam way, way, way out of my experience.

Our nuclear family has always lived 2,000-3,000 miles away from family because of the demands of the academic job market, which requires a lot of geographic flexibility to get a job. If I were to reproduce the jam-making scenario in our life, I’d first have to tear my sister, mom, MIL and/or aunties away from their jobs and fly them across the country. (And at least two of those women make a very high hourly wage that has to be accounted for–the psychologist and the pharmacist…)

We might be literally looking at a $1,000 jar of jam.

Hence, the hypothetical need to glue my toddler to the TV in order to do a big jam project by myself–I don’t have any access to “free” help.

(Also, locally we don’t have access to the sort of ridiculously inexpensive berries that make jam-making attractive. When I was a kid, my mom did once (ONCE!) can blackberry jam and it was fabulous, but in my home town, blackberries are essentially free–they’re literally a weed where I’m from in Western WA.)

I think frugality is very resource dependent. And strong local support and family connections are actually resources that not everybody has, just like not everybody has a lot of money, and not everybody has boundless energy.

By the way, there’s a very funny book called The $64 Tomato about a guy’s work on his large organic garden. By the end of his experiences, he starts doing the math and realizes that his garden is costing him enormously.

Here’s an excerpt where he does the math:

npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5360768

HA! He seems way overboard to me, but then he’s flying SOLO…Our parish has a huge garden. Was begun by a band of seasoned southern gardeners. In our 4th year, the band of roughly 18 gardeners (each person has a few rows, and they are rows simply for anyone who wants to, they harvested over 8,000 pounds of produce. Some they took home for use (they can ALOT) and roughly half was either sold to other parishioners after Mass and the remainder given to the nearby food bank for the needy. If you just want something, pick it. No money asked, it’s an offering. This year, they just dug 800 pounds of potatoes. 75 tomato plants have kicked in…(they learned to rotate their planting on those the year of the all nighter salsa making marathon.)
Anyway, those who garden tend to acquire the accouterments over time, and share a lot of wisdom and tools. I get that he, gong solo, was at a real disadvantage starting out cold, with no help or tools to speak of.
They do struggle with deer, rabbits, and crows. The electric fencing over a portion of the tender garden was purchased with the funds generated by the after-Mass sales. And as we all know, people who are asked to pay 50 cents for an item sold after Mass will drop a ten and say “keep the change for the ministry”.
So yeah.
Big gardens save you oodles. A small one, maybe not so much.

 

[pianistclare]

My frugality begins when other people’s frugality ends.

I have lovely furniture and appliances I found gently used and in excellent condition for less than 1/4 the cost of new simply because someone redecorates every year or bought something that doesn’t fit their home the way they thought it would.

Craigslist is my friend! If I need to replace something I know I’ll find it for a great deal as long as I check a few times a day or so. About 5 to 10 minutes each check. Not much time at all for the amount of money I save.

I buy most clothes at the thrift store. I even get the kids school uniforms there. Name brand clothes that look new do take some time to find and I’ll do a couple of trips over a period of a few weeks, but I get the kids uniforms and regular clothes for less than a total of $300 a year.

Most of my food is store brands and I have a deep freeze to take advantage of sales. I shop at the local farmers market in season for ridiculously cheap fruits and veggies.

I get a lot of my cleaners and random household items at the Dollar Store. I do spend on detergent, but only because one of my kids has sensitive skin.

I do a lot of my own household and auto repairs myself and have the kids act as assistants. Even a toddler can pass the screwdriver. And kids of all ages really seem to like seeing how things work and are proud to say they helped.

Appliance repairs depend on the price of parts. Sometimes, it’s easier and about the same cost to replace at a used appliance shop with a warranty than to buy the part.

We do our own yard work as a family and we also wash the car and van at home.

We do our own mani-pedis. The boys cut their own hair using clippers and different guards for style.

We eat out very rarely.

We’re cancelling cable, internet, and phone to switch over to internet only with Netflix and Hulu subscriptions to save about $100 per month. We realized we’re paying out the nose for hundreds of channels we never watch. Took me forever to convince DH, but he finally agreed and I hope to complete the switch over this week.

FWIW, We did a unit with our LifeTeen group on water conservation. Turn out washing the car at home uses way more water than going to one of those drive through jobs. Home washing uses 40-140 gallons of water.

I have friends who join community groups on FB and find amazing furniture deals.

 

[Sheeniac]

I have a very small garden built with raised beds using the square foot method (specially created soil mix). I would have to say I was paying a LOT of money for my first year. But you need to depreciate your capital investments over time since I’ve had it several years with minimal cash output since then. So I may be in the $10/tomato range. And next year will be even cheaper.

(We’ve had some dreadful weather causing ‘crop failure’, combined with rabbit issues, but I’m still chugging along…)

 

[Allegra]

FWIW, We did a unit with our LifeTeen group on water conservation. Turn out washing the car at home uses way more water than going to one of those drive through jobs. Home washing uses 40-140 gallons of water.

I have friends who join community groups on FB and find amazing furniture deals.

We save even more water by parking outside during rainstorms. (Disclaimer: Doesn’t work as well in hail.)

 

[Xantippe]

My frugality begins when other people’s frugality ends.

**That’s very true.

Where would we have gotten a 60,000 mile 3-year-old Kia minivan for under $12k if everybody were super frugal and kept their cars forever? Somebody has to buy new.**

We’re cancelling cable, internet, and phone to switch over to internet only with Netflix and Hulu subscriptions to save about $100 per month. We realized we’re paying out the nose for hundreds of channels we never watch. Took me forever to convince DH, but he finally agreed and I hope to complete the switch over this week.

As long as he’s not a big sports guy, you’ll do fine.

If you like Brit stuff, you can get that from Acorn for $5 a month.

 

[Xantippe]

Speaking of gardening, transferring out of your region can nullify every thing you thought you knew. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest on the rainy coast. In our area, you couldn’t keep carrots and other root vegetables from growing (my great-grandma had some parsnips that had escaped her garden and were growing wherever they wanted to). As a 30-something, I moved with my own family to Texas and did some minor experiments with gardening in our first rental house (our first actual house ever). Come to find out, it is possible to fail miserably at growing carrots. I had no idea.

On the other hand, our herb gardening has been a glorious (and very money-saving) success. In our local climate, there are huge rosemary bushes everywhere, and they grow big and bushy without any encouragement at all. I’m currently on hiatus from gardening, but our 10-year-old had cilantro this spring and has been growing dill (all in pots). I have promised to buy him some basil this fall–he’s very excited about it.

Likewise, in our area, there are a lot of pecan trees that nobody is minding, and local etiquette is that you can pick up pecans from semi-public places like city parks or near the church or college campuses. It’s a fair amount of work cracking them, of course.

 

[pianistclare]

Speaking of gardening, transferring out of your region can nullify every thing you thought you knew. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest on the rainy coast. In our area, you couldn’t keep carrots and other root vegetables from growing (my great-grandma had some parsnips that had escaped her garden and were growing wherever they wanted to). As a 30-something, I moved with my own family to Texas and did some minor experiments with gardening in our first rental house (our first actual house ever). Come to find out, it is possible to fail miserably at growing carrots. I had no idea.

On the other hand, our herb gardening has been a glorious (and very money-saving) success. In our local climate, there are huge rosemary bushes everywhere, and they grow big and bushy without any encouragement at all. I’m currently on hiatus from gardening, but our 10-year-old had cilantro this spring and has been growing dill (all in pots). I have promised to buy him some basil this fall–he’s very excited about it.

Likewise, in our area, there are a lot of pecan trees that nobody is minding, and local etiquette is that you can pick up pecans from semi-public places like city parks or near the church or college campuses. It’s a fair amount of work cracking them, of course.

The commercial nut crackers are reasonably priced and work great!

 

[Sarcelle]

Speaking of gardening, transferring out of your region can nullify every thing you thought you knew. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest on the rainy coast. In our area, you couldn’t keep carrots and other root vegetables from growing (my great-grandma had some parsnips that had escaped her garden and were growing wherever they wanted to). As a 30-something, I moved with my own family to Texas and did some minor experiments with gardening in our first rental house (our first actual house ever). Come to find out, it is possible to fail miserably at growing carrots. I had no idea.

On the other hand, our herb gardening has been a glorious (and very money-saving) success. In our local climate, there are huge rosemary bushes everywhere, and they grow big and bushy without any encouragement at all. I’m currently on hiatus from gardening, but our 10-year-old had cilantro this spring and has been growing dill (all in pots). I have promised to buy him some basil this fall–he’s very excited about it.

Likewise, in our area, there are a lot of pecan trees that nobody is minding, and local etiquette is that you can pick up pecans from semi-public places like city parks or near the church or college campuses. It’s a fair amount of work cracking them, of course.

When I lived in Hawaii, I kept several fruit trees in my backyard, bananas, oranges, lemons, avocados and Surinam cherries along with garlic chives, Italian parsley and Rosemary. I couldn’t keep roses alive for long, but had no problem with gardenias and azaleas.I usually grew things I couldn’t find at the local market. The bananas I had were red in color and tasted like Honeycrisp apples albeit with a different texture.

I had so much bananas, I ended giving them away and my cherry tomatoes grew like weeds and took over the garden.

 

[Xantippe]

When I lived in Hawaii, I kept several fruit trees in my backyard, bananas, oranges, lemons, avocados and Surinam cherries along with garlic chives, Italian parsley and Rosemary. I couldn’t keep roses alive for long, but had no problem with gardenias and azaleas.I usually grew things I couldn’t find at the local market. The bananas I had were red in color and tasted like Honeycrisp apples albeit with a different texture.

I had so much bananas, I ended giving them away and my cherry tomatoes grew like weeds and took over the garden.

Oh my goodness!

 

[Rosebud77]

Fascinating thread… NB I never thought re water bills being an excuse to use disposable nappies… diapers to you. Always cloth for ecology… I live in rural Ireland am over 70 and have lived frugality decades, through choice and as was on disability and now a pension. I find these allowances more than enough but hate waste of any kind and have simple tastes. In decades past I had hens, a goat etc and grew all my food but age and different priorities now as I have family working overseas with abandoned babies and it has made me so very aware of how little it takes to help and how little I really need. So I stopped the bread baking which takes time and electricity which costs a lot here and either get day old from a nice baker or supermarket cheapest. Love the reduced food counters and eat simply. Any clothes I need and they are few now, from thrift shops… still grow some food and flowers from cheap seed. No hens etc now as am not able for that any more… use no cosmetics etc… happy with my choices… which is what matters… wash by hand except sheets and towels and never use a drier…