Is Genesis 2: 15-17 an explanation of Original Sin?

[grannymh]

For General Information
**Sidebar: Modern Arianism **

This can be traced back to the explanation of Original Sin, Genesis 2: 15-17, as needing a Divine Savior. When Jesus is cleverly described as not being fully divine when it comes to feeding material anatomies in John, chapter 6, it becomes difficult to believe the basic Catholic teaching that the Eucharist, which we eat, is the Real Presence of our Savior.

A good example of modern stealth Arianism can be found in the nasty approach to the miracle of loaves and fishes. John 6: 1-15. I still remember when I read my first adult biography of Jesus. This book’s author got as far as John 6: 10, and then he switched to the talents of Jesus as a preacher. Jesus was described as a great prophet who could bring out the love in the people reclining in hunger. His words of wisdom about loving one’s neighbor inspired the crowd to share what little food they had. Some had a brown bag lunch. With the whole crowd sharing in love, there was no mention of the miracle of loaves and fishes.

I was taught sound information about Adam not being divine; therefore, we find John 3: 16-17. When I was reading about a missing miracle, the silly idea popped into my head that if Jesus could not perform a simple food miracle, could we believe that He had the authority to demand right from wrong. Because God, the Divine Creator, instituted the original friendship relationship between Divinity and humanity, the human creature Adam could not repair the relationship he had shattered with his disobedience aka Original Sin.

Many years later, an intelligent woman gave a workshop on some of the ways modern Arianism was appearing in modern life.
Luke 18: 15-16 usccb.org/bible/luke/18

15
People were bringing even infants to Him that He might touch them,* and when the disciples saw this, they rebuked them.
16
Jesus, however, called the children to Himself and said, “Let the children come to Me and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
To me, this sounds as if abortion denies the command of a Divine Jesus Who clearly desires the children for His own. Do not prevent them by killing them.

Because we trace the existence of Jesus back to Genesis 3: 15, we must conclude that Jesus is not only a great prophet in a long line of prophets, He is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

 

[grannymh]

Over the years here on CAF, it is noticeable that a few people will explain God and Original Sin in terms of two people such as a human father and child. Apparently, that approach is intended to help our limited minds understand what actually is very plain in the first three chapters of Genesis. My question is Why do these “stories” have to eliminate the Divinity of God?

L is for God’s Unconditional LOVE

It is not about two charitable people who can compare and contrast love even when it involves a deeper understanding and a stronger spiritual value. **L **refers to a Divine Creator Who has a major role in the first three chapters of Genesis. I do not agree to substituting a human for God.

Obviously, readers can post questions about God’s unconditional love. For example. What are conditions? Is the Divine Creator in a different position from that of the human creature? What is the original friendship relationship between God and Adam? Sorry, I keep forgetting that a few Catholics no longer believe in a literal first human man. Without the founder of humankind, I doubt if questions about God’s real love can be put forth.

 

[grannymh]

**L is for God’s Unconditional LOVE, **journalism mantra continued

The journalism What? is in posts 394 & 396. Here begins the “Who?”

The journalist author of the first three historical chapters places the primary Who at the strong beginning of a powerful section, the creation of the universe. While we do debate the “textbook” concept, we cannot ignore the infinite power of God in creating our amazing material world. It is the transcendent, super-natural, Pure Spirit, the Divine **Who **that we know as unconditional Love.

The word unconditional refers to something that is not limited. Unconditional is something “unqualified.” Please recognize that the professor author is not teaching us about some “thing.” He flat out is talking about Divinity, the One God of his people. The One Divine God Creator principle has not changed. We need to stop, for a few minutes, look into a mirror to check if we are still a created being known as human. We do not see a golden glow of unrestricted unconditional power. In fact, if we smash that nasty truthful mirror, we find our human blood flowing from our material hand. We are conditional. Our bloody hand is not unconditional power. God’s power is unconditional. That is the reason He can love a sinful human whose “condition” is a freely chosen mess.

God is not limited to what we humans know about God.

 

[grannymh]

God is not limited to what we humans know about God.

It is time to analyze the means or tools which some people claiming Catholicism are using to change, or at least update, the foundation of our faith found in the truth-filled first three chapters of Genesis.

In the Encyclical Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII warned the future us, about the emerging Big Tent proposal. Currently, the Big Tent communion eliminates the need for sinners to freely formally seek God’s mercy. Why? Because God’s unconditional love trumps what we know about ourselves. One popular tool is to look at ourselves – would we really doom our children? God cannot be limited to this kind of human knowledge about Divinity and the relationship between Divinity and humanity.

In honesty, we should not, cannot, limit God’s infinite knowledge. In truth, the Catholic Church teaches how we need to look beyond our own human knowledge. The Catholic Church focuses on the Incarnation because Jesus Christ is the only Person who can reinstate the original relationship between humanity and Divinity, aka Adam’s State of Original Holiness, now known as our State of Sanctifying Grace.
(CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)

Humani Generis link. Please refer to paragraphs 11 and 12, also found in post 394 above.
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

Sample of a new improved Catholicism

“Genesis began with six clear statements of original blessing or inherent goodness (Genesis 1:10-31), and the words “original sin” are not in the New Testament. Yet the Church became so preoccupied with the fly in the ointment, the flaw in the beauty that we forgot and even missed out on any original blessing. We saw Jesus primarily as a problem-solver rather than as a revealer of the very heart and image of God (Colossians 1:15f). We must now rebuild on a foundation of original goodness, and not on a foundation of original curse or sin. We dug a pit so deep that most people and most theologies could not get back out of it. You must begin with yes. You cannot begin with no, or it is not a beginning at all.” myemail.constantcontact.com/Richard-Rohr-s-Meditation–Original-Blessing.html?soid=1103098668616&aid=yAlpFk3eNPc

The real “original goodness” is Genesis 1: 27 and Genesis 3: 15

Catholicism does not evolve as the wind blows.

 

[simpleas]

**L is for God’s Unconditional LOVE, **journalism mantra continued

The journalism What? is in posts 394 & 396. Here begins the “Who?”

The journalist author of the first three historical chapters places the primary Who at the strong beginning of a powerful section, the creation of the universe. While we do debate the “textbook” concept, we cannot ignore the infinite power of God in creating our amazing material world. It is the transcendent, super-natural, Pure Spirit, the Divine **Who **that we know as unconditional Love.

The word unconditional refers to something that is not limited. Unconditional is something “unqualified.” Please recognize that the professor author is not teaching us about some “thing.” He flat out is talking about Divinity, the One God of his people. The One Divine God Creator principle has not changed. We need to stop, for a few minutes, look into a mirror to check if we are still a created being known as human. We do not see a golden glow of unrestricted unconditional power. In fact, if we smash that nasty truthful mirror, we find our human blood flowing from our material hand. We are conditional. Our bloody hand is not unconditional power. God’s power is unconditional. That is the reason He can love a sinful human whose “condition” is a freely chosen mess.

God is not limited to what we humans know about God.

I’m slightly tired at the moment :yawn: But wanted to quickly post.

Unconditional means not subject to any condition’s. I’m not sure how God’s love can be viewed as unconditional when there are many conditions made upon the human in order that the human can be in the state of sanctifying grace upon their death, and thus ‘proceed’ toward seeing God, or making it to purgatory.
God loves us that much, he will allow us to choose hell over him, is what I often hear on CAF. I’m not sure about that either.

I agree with your last line, some of us know little to nothing about God, and there are those who think they know everything about God.

 

[grannymh]

I’m slightly tired at the moment :yawn: But wanted to quickly post.

Unconditional means not subject to any condition’s. I’m not sure how God’s love can be viewed as unconditional when there are many conditions made upon the human in order that the human can be in the state of sanctifying grace upon their death, and thus ‘proceed’ toward seeing God, or making it to purgatory.
God loves us that much, he will allow us to choose hell over him, is what I often hear on CAF. I’m not sure about that either.

I agree with your last line, some of us know little to nothing about God, and there are those who think they know everything about God.

This analysis from post 401 has been presented in various ways in different forums.
“I’m not sure how God’s love can be viewed as unconditional when there are many conditions made upon the human in order that the human can be in the state of sanctifying grace upon their death, and thus ‘proceed’ toward seeing God, or making it to purgatory.”

When we return to Genesis 1: 27. “God created mankind in His image; in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them.” We do not find that God is created in mankind’s image. In other words, God is not subject to conditions.

In my childhood neighborhood, the tactic of slipping the concept of conditions from human to divinity would be known as “bait and switch.” This current popular tool can cause some havoc between sincere Catholics and other Catholics.

 

[simpleas]

This analysis from post 401 has been presented in various ways in different forums.
“I’m not sure how God’s love can be viewed as unconditional when there are many conditions made upon the human in order that the human can be in the state of sanctifying grace upon their death, and thus ‘proceed’ toward seeing God, or making it to purgatory.”

When we return to Genesis 1: 27. “God created mankind in His image; in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them.” We do not find that God is created in mankind’s image. In other words, God is not subject to conditions.

In my childhood neighborhood, the tactic of slipping the concept of conditions from human to divinity would be known as “bait and switch.” This current popular tool can cause some havoc between sincere Catholics and other Catholics.

God is not subject to conditions but the human is.

For God’s love to be unconditional, there should be no conditions placed upon the human, is what I’m exploring.

Humans have their conditions.

Take for example the phase : I’ll take you to the cinema…* on the condition that you clean your room*
If room is cleaned, the person enjoys the ‘treat’ if not, they don’t get the treat.

That’s a human condition which is easily understood.

The unconditional love from God is harder to explain. It still boils down to a form of obedience.

Before discovering CAF, I never thought of God’s love having conditions, or being unconditional. God was Love…the end.

 

[simpleas]

Originally Posted by grannymh

In honesty, we should not, cannot, limit God’s infinite knowledge. In truth, the Catholic Church teaches how we need to look beyond our own human knowledge.

No one knows the mind of God completely. God is beyond our human knowledge, I mean we don’t know the infinite knowledge because we are only human.

What do you mean when you say human knowledge?

 

[grannymh]

No one knows the mind of God completely. God is beyond our human knowledge, I mean we don’t know the infinite knowledge because we are only human.

What do you mean when you say human knowledge?

I like this Wikipedia answer. It includes understandable basics. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge
"Knowledge is a familiarity, awareness or understanding of someone or something, such as facts, information, descriptions, or skills, which is acquired through experience or education by perceiving, discovering, or learning."

I did not follow all the blue links because we are going beyond general knowledge. By the way, human knowledge can include general animal [sentient] knowledge. The essential difference between humans and animals is the spiritual rational soul given directly to each human being. (Genesis 1: 27; CCC 362-366)

Here is where the nitty-gritty is way beyond this older than dirt brain.

The spiritual soul is known for its tools of reasoning.

To be human, a person has a rational reasoning spiritual soul. Our tools of reasoning include, but are not limited to, observation, abstract thinking, abstraction of universal concepts, logical evaluation, designed experiments, self-reflection, analytical thought, and imagination. Personally I like to add gut instinct. There is also the power of intellective free choice.

What I learned from the above is that there are a lot of ingredients in a great soup. We do not have to know every ingredient precisely in order to enjoy the soup. As long as the third ingredient onion is present. (short story by O. Henry) As long as Catholic doctrines are not being changed.

Please note that I did not create the above list of rational tools. They are from old lists of skills used for plain old fashioned thinking. In real life, we have to logically evaluate whether or not two large bowls of ice cream will lead to significant weight loss.

 

[grannymh]

No one knows the mind of God completely. God is beyond our human knowledge, I mean we don’t know the infinite knowledge because we are only human.

Some internet writers apparently know God’s infinite knowledge which may be why they want to improve this infinite knowledge so that their lives will be easier without responsibility for their actions. Responsibility is the hang up when we receive God’s unconditional love. Is responsibility a condition? Or is responsibility for our actions the tool for being one with God? The basic tool for being in a united relationship with Divinity is free will obedience by humanity.

If human obedience is a condition and it does look like a condition, we need to immediately grasp it and hold it tight. When we set aside the human obedience condition, we find ourselves out in the cold even in our chosen cold. Fortunately, God loves us unconditionally. Personally, I do not consider separation as a good thing.

Thank heavens that L is for God’s Unconditional LOVE

 

[grannymh]

M is for our Memory of Adam

Take a look at Genesis 2: 15-17. Now there is the king of all conditions! Still, in Genesis 3: 9, the Lord God then called to the man and asked him, “Where are you?” Looking for Adam is the ultimate action of God’s unconditional love.

Suppose we call up the author’s memory of Adam. What would be that author’s favorite memory? What is our favorite memory?

 

[grannymh]

M is for our Memory of Adam

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My personal observation is that there are many Catholics who do not have a complete memory of Adam and/or do not use a complete memory of Adam at various times.

 

[simpleas]

M is for our Memory of Adam

---

---

My personal observation is that there are many Catholics who do not have a complete memory of Adam and/or do not use a complete memory of Adam at various times.

That maybe because we were taught more about Jesus Christ than we ever were about Adam…?

 

[simpleas]

I like this Wikipedia answer. It includes understandable basics. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge
"Knowledge is a familiarity, awareness or understanding of someone or something, such as facts, information, descriptions, or skills, which is acquired through experience or education by perceiving, discovering, or learning."

I did not follow all the blue links because we are going beyond general knowledge. By the way, human knowledge can include general animal [sentient] knowledge. The essential difference between humans and animals is the spiritual rational soul given directly to each human being. (Genesis 1: 27; CCC 362-366)

Here is where the nitty-gritty is way beyond this older than dirt brain.

The spiritual soul is known for its tools of reasoning.

To be human, a person has a rational reasoning spiritual soul. Our tools of reasoning include, but are not limited to, observation, abstract thinking, abstraction of universal concepts, logical evaluation, designed experiments, self-reflection, analytical thought, and imagination. Personally I like to add gut instinct. There is also the power of intellective free choice.

What I learned from the above is that there are a lot of ingredients in a great soup. We do not have to know every ingredient precisely in order to enjoy the soup. As long as the third ingredient onion is present. (short story by O. Henry) As long as Catholic doctrines are not being changed.

Please note that I did not create the above list of rational tools. They are from old lists of skills used for plain old fashioned thinking. In real life, we have to logically evaluate whether or not two large bowls of ice cream will lead to significant weight loss.

You had said the church teaches that we need to look beyond our human knowledge, but human knowledge is all we have. We think with our human minds, spiritual though we maybe, that doesn’t always come naturally, that needs some work for some people.
Yet we still have only the knowledge we seek, and can’t have God’s knowledge.

 

[grannymh]

You had said the church teaches that we need to look beyond our human knowledge, but human knowledge is all we have. We think with our human minds, spiritual though we maybe, that doesn’t always come naturally, that needs some work for some people.
Yet we still have only the knowledge we seek, and can’t have God’s knowledge.

In response to what you said I said. You commented: “You had said the church teaches that we need to look beyond our human knowledge, but human knowledge is all we have.”

What I said is this in post 400: “In truth, the Catholic Church teaches how we need to look beyond our own human knowledge.” It is easy to accidentally leave out the word “How.” Nonetheless, the use of the word “how” is essential especially since it is the unique Catholic Church which is teaching Divine Revelation. Guided by the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, major ecumenical church councils can duly define and properly declare Catholic doctrines. These doctrines can be described as the “way” or the “how” we learn the knowledge of Divine Revelation.

It is reasonable that the author of the first three chapters of Genesis used his own human knowledge to figure out that there had to be a Super-Creator based on the evidence from the natural universe. It really does not matter how the evidence is described. The point is that it exists. The sun is hot and the moon is beautiful. Humans learn and enjoy. Humans did not roll the sun and moon into some kind of a ball and then lift them into the sky.Yet, because of Genesis 1: 27, humans can sense the existence of a being outside of their nature. Ancient legends, shamans, and a fertility god attest that there is something out there that is super-natural. Children know that there is some kind of supernatural ghost either under their bed or in the closet.

If we wish to complete our memory of Adam, most likely we will start digging into Catholic doctrines–the how–which gently flow from the first three challenging chapters of Genesis.

 

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by grannymh forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
M is for our Memory of Adam

My personal observation is that there are many Catholics who do not have a complete memory of Adam and/or do not use a complete memory of Adam at various times.

That maybe because we were taught more about Jesus Christ than we ever were about Adam…?

Thank you simpleas. That is exactly what my brief research tells me. It makes sense because we are living in the era of downplaying or omitting Adam because he tends to mess up the goal of eliminating difficult doctrines like only two founders of the human species and those which teach that we are responsible for our actions, including choosing God or rejecting God.

Definitely we should learn more about Jesus Christ, especially why and how the Incarnation happened. Why did Jesus Christ have to give up His human life? (1Corinthians 15: 55) Skip that answer and we have Jesus as a terrific human prophet within a long line of terrific prophets. Jesus becomes a great human prophet Who is close but not quite the same as the Father in the Most Holy Trinity. This is known as modern Arianism. Is Jesus fully divine in John 6: 1-15 or is He an amazing preacher Who motivated some members of the crowd to share their food with others who did not bring any. Years back, there was a poster who said that the motivation story is still around.

 

[grannymh]

Hi Michelle,

This is a signature line I have used in the past. I could used it again with a safety pin under it.

The human person is worthy of profound respect.
.
.

 

[OneSheep]

God is not subject to conditions but the human is.

For God’s love to be unconditional, there should be no conditions placed upon the human, is what I’m exploring.

Humans have their conditions.

Take for example the phase : I’ll take you to the cinema…* on the condition that you clean your room*
If room is cleaned, the person enjoys the ‘treat’ if not, they don’t get the treat.

That’s a human condition which is easily understood.

The unconditional love from God is harder to explain. It still boils down to a form of obedience.

Before discovering CAF, I never thought of God’s love having conditions, or being unconditional. God was Love…the end.

Hi Simpleas,

Yes, you had it right before discovering the CAF. God is Love, the end. Love at its deepest level is unconditional.

Yes, we project that God limits his love dependent on our obedience. However, God’s love is far greater and has no limits, unlike our human limitations. While to us it makes no sense to forgive a person who is not sorry for their trespasses, for example, God forgives without condition, as He did from the cross.

On the other hand, the human idea that God loves and forgives conditionally is very natural and has its place.

In order to stretch our understanding of God’s love, what we can keep in mind is, “God loves us at least as much as the person who loves us most.” The awareness that God loves and forgives us regardless of what we do or say comes with time, prayer, and service. When we love others in this way, we will come to see that God loves in this way. Granny is right, God is very different than people. He loves without any condition whatsoever. Nothing stops him, hinders Him, limits Him.

 

[grannymh]

God is not subject to conditions but the human is.

For God’s love to be unconditional, there should be no conditions placed upon the human, is what I’m exploring.

Humans have their conditions.

Take for example the phase : I’ll take you to the cinema…* on the condition that you clean your room*
If room is cleaned, the person enjoys the ‘treat’ if not, they don’t get the treat.

That’s a human condition which is easily understood.

The unconditional love from God is harder to explain. It still boils down to a form of obedience.

As I continue to study the view that 'humans have their conditions," I am finding a strange mixture of human love and Divine love. There is this background of jump here or jump there and God will love us. Half the time, I am not sure who is jumping.

Is it really us who are telling God how He has to unconditionally jump in loving us?

Why is there a kind of transference or projection of our ideas about loving and forgiving other humans plopped on God?

How can there be an issue of obedience when so many Catholics have decided that they are correct in denying the existence of Adam in one way or another?

There is a huge wall of difference between Divinity and humanity. What is the big deal when there is Genesis 1: 27?

Yes, it is important to expand our understanding of God’s love. The real difficulty is to get past our pride. Yes, it is hard to be humble when the above questions are asked. Humility is necessary in order to understand the real Adam and his real descendants.Yes, we can falter when the material world jumps on us.

Thank you simpleas for sharing your “exploration” with us. Asking God about conditions can be scary. Yet, Catholics who believe in the truths flowing from the first three chapters of Genesis can find the deep answers.

It is becoming apparent that some people use the word condition in the wrong way. The word condition, in Catholic teaching, refers to a necessary condition of obedience in order for the human Adam to be in a sincere friendship relationship with his Creator God. Genesis 2: 15-17. In modern terminology, the State of Sanctifying Grace depends on the obedience condition in that relationship with Divinity-- the obedience which signifies that there is not two equal supreme primary gods.

When I was a child in Catholic grade school, I learned that Adam’s obedience was necessary. Currently, as I was actually using the *Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, *I finally figured out the simple truth in the first two sentences of CCC 396.
**CCC 396 **God created man in His image and established Him in His friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God.

The simple truth is that there cannot be two equal supreme gods at the same time.:doh2:
The Catechism uses the words “free submission” – we prefer the simple word obedience when we want a sincere friendship relationship with our Creator God. Unfortunately, there are some current Catholics who have found it easier to accept the theory that a literal Adam is not possible. Adam being figurative removes those awful doctrines surrounding Original Sin. With Original Sin gone, a fully divine reconciler is not entirely necessary. That conclusion is the base for a return of the ancient heresy Arianism. In modern language, the dismissal of the importance of the Original Sin is one of the steps to a Big Tent church which sets aside any annoying Catholic doctrine.

Pope Pius XII warned us about emerging or progressive Christianity. From the Encyclical Humani Generis. w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

1. Another danger is perceived which is all the more serious because it is more concealed beneath the mask of virtue. There are many who, deploring disagreement among men and intellectual confusion, through an imprudent zeal for souls, are urged by a great and ardent desire to do away with the barrier that divides good and honest men; these advocate an “eirenism” according to which, by setting aside the questions which divide men, they aim not only at joining forces to repel the attacks of atheism, but also at reconciling things opposed to one another in the field of dogma. And as in former times some questioned whether the traditional apologetics of the Church did not constitute an obstacle rather than a help to the winning of souls for Christ, so today some are presumptive enough to question seriously whether theology and theological methods, such as with the approval of ecclesiastical authority are found in our schools, should not only be perfected, but also completely reformed, in order to promote the more efficacious propagation of the kingdom of Christ everywhere throughout the world among men of every culture and religious opinion.
2. Now if these only aimed at adapting ecclesiastical teaching and methods to modern conditions and requirements, through the introduction of some new explanations, there would be scarcely any reason for alarm. But some through enthusiasm for an imprudent “eirenism” seem to consider as an obstacle to the restoration of fraternal union, things founded on the laws and principles given by Christ and likewise on institutions founded by Him, or which are the defense and support of the integrity of the faith, and the removal of which would bring about the union of all, but only to their destruction.

 

[fhansen]

God puts no conditions on His love. But He allows us the freedom to reject that unconditional love.