Is God bound by any law?

[zro_x]

No, by my logic we cannot because God commanded us not to murder. But that doesn’t change the validity of the argument in the least bit: the person would not be dead, he would experience physical death of the flesh (which “profits nothing”) while the immortal soul would live and eventually, on the last day, be reunited to the glorified body

I wasn’t arguing against the validity of your argument. You were arguing against the validity of mine. I understand your argument and agree with it. The basic problem here is that you and I are talking about two diferent types of death. I’m merely pointing out that God causes the physical death of every person who ever lived. Pointing out that we do not spiritually die does not refute my position that God disobbeys his own commandment.

 

[R_C]

I wasn’t arguing against the validity of your argument. You were arguing against the validity of mine. I understand your argument and agree with it. The basic problem here is that you and I are talking about two diferent types of death. I’m merely pointing out that God causes the physical death of every person who ever lived. Pointing out that we do not spiritually die does not refute my position that God disobbeys his own commandment.

But he doesn’t. See, that’ the point: God is not the cause of the physical death: we are, because it is written in us, it is a natural process. If a pear falls from a tree, God did not cause it to fall: it was written that it had to mature and fall because of the gravitational pull. We may argue that God causes physical death, for instance, with the Flood, but that was a just punishment and did not constitute murder (which is what the commandment forbids - the killing of an innocent, not the execution of a guilty). And one may argue even further that everyone’s physical death is part of the temporal punishment that derives from original sin: for the eternal punishment is forgiven by the merits of Christ (and we regain sanctifying grace in Baptism) but not so with the temporary punishment. Otherwise, we would also have no evil inclinations towards vanity, pride, and lust

However, we must also keep in mind that God is the law (that one does sound amusing, but it is the truth) and indeed Christ is called divine legislator. What I mean is this: if God commands me not to do something, it is the Creator commanding the creature, the Master commanding the servant. The Creator has excellent reasons beyond our understanding to command us not to murder, and it also escapes our understanding why sometimes we seem to find a contradiction. Indeed the teachers of the Law accused Christ to break the law of the day of rest (the Sabbath) and Christ replied that both the Son and the Father, it would seem, “broke” the law of the day of rest (John 5:17). In truth, it was us who did not understand what that law was, and it is us who fail to understand the fifth commandment - for if God does something in apparent contradiction, it is no doubt us, the ones with imperfect and limited minds, who fail to understand: He, being infinitely wise, could not fall short of righteousness By this I mean that it is evident that we are commanded not to murder; thus, the physical death of men cannot be a breaking of the fifth commandment. It must be something else. It does not matter whether or not we can express what that something else is.

 

[zro_x]

you offer two different arguments in this section. I’ll take them one at a time.

But he doesn’t. See, that’ the point: God is not the cause of the physical death: we are, because it is written in us, it is a natural process. If a pear falls from a tree, God did not cause it to fall: it was written that it had to mature and fall because of the gravitational pull.

whoever or what ever wrote death in us is ultimately responsible for it.

We may argue that God causes physical death, for instance, with the Flood, but that was a just punishment and did not constitute murder (which is what the commandment forbids - the killing of an innocent, not the execution of a guilty). And one may argue even further that everyone’s physical death is part of the temporal punishment that derives from original sin: for the eternal punishment is forgiven by the merits of Christ (and we regain sanctifying grace in Baptism) but not so with the temporary punishment.

And what would be the point of punishing us for a sin of our distant ancestors?

However, we must also keep in mind that God is the law (that one does sound amusing, but it is the truth) and indeed Christ is called divine legislator. What I mean is this: if God commands me not to do something, it is the Creator commanding the creature, the Master commanding the servant. The Creator has excellent reasons beyond our understanding to command us not to murder, and it also escapes our understanding why sometimes we seem to find a contradiction. Indeed the teachers of the Law accused Christ to break the law of the day of rest (the Sabbath) and Christ replied that both the Son and the Father, it would seem, “broke” the law of the day of rest (John 5:17). In truth, it was us who did not understand what that law was, and it is us who fail to understand the fifth commandment - for if God does something in apparent contradiction, it is no doubt us, the ones with imperfect and limited minds, who fail to understand: He, being infinitely wise, could not fall short of righteousness By this I mean that it is evident that we are commanded not to murder; thus, the physical death of men cannot be a breaking of the fifth commandment. It must be something else. It does not matter whether or not we can express what that something else is.

That’s a nicer way of saying that God can justly violate the laws he gives us. But I think that on the whole, you’re right.

 

[R_C]

you offer two different arguments in this section. I’ll take them one at a time.

1. whoever or what ever wrote death in us is ultimately responsible for it.

Then Eve and Adam indirectly, Satan directly.

1. And what would be the point of punishing us for a sin of our distant ancestors?

**By the original sin we lost something important. In fact, we lost the right to exist. But God loved us of such an extraordinary love that I personally will never be able to fully comprehend Him: He chose to keep us into existence and in the fullness of time, when the Son came among us, He chose to take upon His innocent self the burden of all our sins, because He indeed did not want to punish us for sins of our distant ancestors.

It was no messenger or angel but his presence that saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them (Isaiah 63)

 

[zro_x]

Then Eve and Adam indirectly, Satan directly.

Niether actually wrote death in us. God did as a consequence of our actions, at least from what I understand.

By the original sin we lost something important. In fact, we lost the right to exist.

How can we lose the right to exist without the right to exist in the first place?

But God loved us of such an extraordinary love that I personally will never be able to fully comprehend Him: He chose to keep us into existence and in the fullness of time, when the Son came among us, He chose to take upon His innocent self the burden of all our sins, because He indeed did not want to punish us for sins of our distant ancestors.

By the sin of one man we were lost, by the sacrifice of one man we were saved.

Again, you speak in the spiritual sense, not the physical. Why didn’t Jesus’s sacrifice erase the temporal punishment for our sins?

 

[poptown]

However, since God must fulfill a promise if he makes a promise, does it mean God submits to logic? Does it also mean logic rules over God?

 

[zro_x]

However, since God must fulfill a promise if he makes a promise, does it mean God submits to logic? Does it also mean logic rules over God?

yup. Not even God can defy logic.

 

[Peter_Plato]

However, since God must fulfill a promise if he makes a promise, does it mean God submits to logic? Does it also mean logic rules over God?

The logic may be an expression of the nature of God, i.e., an expression of Truth. God is Truth itself.

 

[shoe]

However, since God must fulfill a promise if he makes a promise, does it mean God submits to logic? Does it also mean logic rules over God?

The laws of logic are universal, unchanging, and always true in nature because they reflect the universal, unchanging, and always true nature of God. Logic has its home in God; it is something that is true of God.

 

[PJM]

=fred conty;10087672]“The Son of man is Lord even of the Sabboth.” Lk. 6;5

God is not bound by any law whatsoever. He may do as he pleases at any time, any where, any time without any accountability.

Do we have at least the right to know why if it affects us?

What do you think?

NOPE

God being “God” can ONLY DO [cause] “good things”

He permits evil; but is not it’s cause:thumbsup: AMEN

 

[fred_conty]

NOPE

God being “God” can ONLY DO [cause] “good things”

He permits evil; but is not it’s cause:thumbsup: AMEN

Marcian was a man who lived back in the early church around 1 - 2 century. His problem with the bible was reconciling the “harsh” stuff God was doing in the old testiment with the love and goodness of Jesus in the new testiment. He finally decided to do away with the old testiment and delete some parts of the new testiment, as a solution. Just because he could not resolve the “harsh” stuff in the old testiment. I believe he was also considered as part of the Gnostic movement.

I think this idea has been going on and pops up from time to time. One of the answers to this problem is to present the idea that God is not accountable precisely because he is above all law.

That laws were given to men from God, and not given to God from men. So he is not accountable and may do as he pleases, as above laws. Now the latter phrase raises eyebrows and is criticised as being heartless.

This is what led me to present this post:

“God is not bound by any law whatsoever. He may do as he pleases at any time, any where, any time without any accountability.”

“Do we have at least the right to know why if it affects us?”

So that is the reason for the question.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

Marcian was a man who lived back in the early church around 1 - 2 century. His problem with the bible was reconciling the “harsh” stuff God was doing in the old testiment with the love and goodness of Jesus in the new testiment. He finally decided to do away with the old testiment and delete some parts of the new testiment, as a solution. Just because he could not resolve the “harsh” stuff in the old testiment. I believe he was also considered as part of the Gnostic movement.

I think this idea has been going on and pops up from time to time. One of the answers to this problem is to present the idea that God is not accountable precisely because he is above all law.

That laws were given to men from God, and not given to God from men. So he is not accountable and may do as he pleases, as above laws. Now the latter phrase raises eyebrows and is criticised as being heartless.

This is what led me to present this post:

“God is not bound by any law whatsoever. He may do as he pleases at any time, any where, any time without any accountability.”

“Do we have at least the right to know why if it affects us?”

So that is the reason for the question.

God does bound Himself by certain laws, but even if He didn’t, He can do what He pleases when He pleases because He is God, creator of the universe and knows all things and has no beginning or end. We are His created beings, there is no one greater than Him so why shouldn’t He be able to do as He pleases? Also His logic is not necessarily our logic, His reasoning is higher than our reasoning. The whole idea that God should be held accountable is bad logic, the whole idea that God has to somehow not do any of the things He commands us not to do is faulty human reasoning. The best way to describe it is that there are certain things that children cannot legally do but adults can do, like driving etc. Children are not allowed to drive because they are too immature to handle it. We as human beings are too flawed and immature as a species to handle certain things which is why there are laws/commandments that say we can’t do certain things. God does not cause death, man’s choice and fallen nature caused death and actually death was a release from this fallen state of mankind here on earth. God could have left humanity like this for all eternity but He gave us a way out and a way to be with Him after this life. Even if you try to say that allowing death is the same as causing death, God is the one who gave us, humanity, life and created life so He’s the only one who has the right to take life or allow someone’s death.

 

[vera_dicere]

Yes, but what about the rights we have in regard to his Providence.
Isn’t he obligated to provide?

If God is Love, and Love is willing the good of the other, than God must always provide. Of course, our idea of provision and God’s idea of provision are where things get hazy. For example, the orphan rotting from HIV in an African orphanage may be provided by God in ways we do not understand, ie. faith, spiritual growth, as opposed to what we in our mortal forms think that child needs, ie. parents, home life, drugs, food.

Then of course, there is our free will, God may provide that child faith, but that child may grow up and choose to ignore that faith, blame God for their HIV and refuse God’s provision. I suppose its like the story of the guy clinging to a sinking ship in the ocean, he calls out to God to save him, and then a tug boat comes along, he tells them “no, I"m waiting for God, I don’t need your help”, a helicopter comes along, he tells the piolt the same thing. Eventually he drowns and meets God, he asks why God didn’t save him, God replies “what are you talking about, I sent you two boats and a helicopter!”

As for God and laws, I beleive that God is bound by laws in so much as they require that he doesn’t negate our free will to choose him. ie. Say a volcano was spewing lava everywhere, and God slams his foot down to stop it. He could do that, but who’s going to be an atheist after seeing God’s well pedicured tootsy?

 

[fred_conty]

Skye, you said,
"The whole idea that God should be held accountable is bad logic, the whole idea that God has to somehow not do any of the things He commands us not to do is faulty human reasoning. "

“The best way to describe it is that there are certain things that children cannot legally do but adults can do, like driving etc.”

I don’t find fault with this, but if a son heard his father say something, is it unreasonable for the youngster to want to know why? Won’t a father attempt to explain it?

This is what I am hunting for in the old testament, an explaination of why “harsh”.

The only thing I can think of off hand, is that by being “harsh” he is explaining something to us.
That there is such a thing as God’s judgement, which is shown to be mighty and to be feared.
That his judgment it is something terrible and not to be played with. The real meaning of what this life can dish out if we are not straight up in our lives.

This would hold for all peoples and all nations. Similar to the story of the Ninevites, who were not jews but gentiles. Which means God expects all people to do right with their lives, thereby indicating that they know enough to live right, else God would not expect them to as he does.

This certainly would coincide with what Jesus said in the new testiment about hell, which is cited more times than heaven. That harsh reality awaits those that do wrong which is prefigured in the old testiment which gives a clue to what this “aweful” judgement means.

Just some thoughts. What do you think?

 

[fred_conty]

Vera,you said,
“Say a volcano was spewing lava everywhere, and God slams his foot down to stop it. He could do that, but who’s going to be an atheist after seeing God’s well pedicured tootsy?”

Not to take the wind out of your sail, but I think they might attibute that to the Jolly Green Giant.

It is like the event at Fatima when it had been raining the whole night thru, people were drenched to the skin, the mire was inches deep, and when the event of the sun happened, in a few moments, everything was dry and the muck in the ground was gone. But then the explaination is that everyone brought hairdryers and batteries and did it themselves.

Just some reality thoughts.

 

[PJM]

=zro x;10094399]If you allow a person to die when you could save him, you are responsible for that person’s death.

Besides, God causes all physical phenomena.

Dear freind in Christ;

Your seem a bit confused.

Death is a condition of Life brought on by the sin of Adam and Eve. But God’s Mercy makes if possible That death can be a “Good thing” if Gods plan for humanity is attained?

The reality of death being good or bad is derermined by our own life choices

Matt.19: 17 “… If you would enter [Eternal] life, keep the commandments."

Rom. 2:6 “Who will render to every man according to his works.”

Rev. 22:12 “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works”

Rev. 20:12 “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Mt. 15:16 “So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

God Bless,

Pat /PJM

 

[Skye_Ariel]

Skye, you said,
"The whole idea that God should be held accountable is bad logic, the whole idea that God has to somehow not do any of the things He commands us not to do is faulty human reasoning. "

“The best way to describe it is that there are certain things that children cannot legally do but adults can do, like driving etc.”

I don’t find fault with this, but if a son heard his father say something, is it unreasonable for the youngster to want to know why? Won’t a father attempt to explain it?

This is what I am hunting for in the old testament, an explaination of why “harsh”.

The only thing I can think of off hand, is that by being “harsh” he is explaining something to us.
That there is such a thing as God’s judgement, which is shown to be mighty and to be feared.
That his judgment it is something terrible and not to be played with. The real meaning of what this life can dish out if we are not straight up in our lives.

This would hold for all peoples and all nations. Similar to the story of the Ninevites, who were not jews but gentiles. Which means God expects all people to do right with their lives, thereby indicating that they know enough to live right, else God would not expect them to as he does.

This certainly would coincide with what Jesus said in the new testiment about hell, which is cited more times than heaven. That harsh reality awaits those that do wrong which is prefigured in the old testiment which gives a clue to what this “aweful” judgement means.

Just some thoughts. What do you think?

Oh I see what you’re saying. Okay yeah I can agree with that then.