Is God bound by logic?

[CeaselessMedik]

^^^

 

[catholictiger]

^^^

yes

and no it doesn’t limit him

 

[Khalid]

Yes.

God could not make a triangle that was anything other than 180º and still a triangle. St Thomas treats this at length in his Summa Theologiæ.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

He is a rational being and the source of reason, Logic is bound by him but he is no hypocrite. the reason he could not make a square triangle is that he decreed that a thing cannot both be and not be at the same time in the same way. The words are Aristotle’s but the reality they describe is Gods.

 

[DavidFilmer]

God IS logic. God is bound by his own nature. God IS good - thus God can never be evil. God IS logic, thus God can never be illogical (ie, contrary to all reason).

 

[Wildgraywolf]

I guess you could say God is the Father of true logic and not the limited human understanding we have of it. We think as men think not as God Thinks.

 

[Bezant]

^^^

Whose logic?

 

[Khalid]

His own (i.e. Aristotle’s).

 

[promethius]

^^^

Yes and no.

God is rational, in fact, as a perfect being He is the summit of rationality and reason. From that rationality and reason, then, He has created the Universe which is likewise composed of laws. Our human concept of laws constitutes, in part, what we define as “logic”.

Now, to understand, this “logic” is part and parcel with creation… much of it applies to problems which exist only within creation… so in a sense, God is not bound by the “logic” of this universe, because said Logic is a creation of this universe. All God has to do is say something seemingly nonsensical (take, for instance, holding up a piece of bread and saying “This is My Body”) and the universe reorders itself to the will of God… the “illogical” becomes the real and tangible (and therefore the logical), just as every day we see a miracle on the Altar.

However, does God act illogically then? No, not really… The fact that the rules of logic exist stems from the fact that it has an integral place in God’s plan and creation, and that, therefore, logic and rationality garners its creation from elements of God’s character (just as what is good is good because it is in keeping with God’s character). In other words, God is rational, and the rules of logic reflect that rationality of God… so while the rules of logic are God’s creation, and they are subject to God, they are an enduring element of God’s creation which stem from His perfect and unchanging rationality, and so the reflection is indicative of our expectation of God: that He behaves rationally (because He is rational).

In other words, we have logic because God is rational, and so despite the fact that He is not bound by the rules of logic, God still behaves rationally… which looks very logical from our perspective.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

Now, to understand, this “logic” is part and parcel with creation… much of it applies to problems which exist only within creation… so in a sense, God is not bound by the “logic” of this universe, because said Logic is a creation of this universe. All God has to do is say something seemingly nonsensical (take, for instance, holding up a piece of bread and saying “This is My Body”) and the universe reorders itself to the will of God… the “illogical” becomes the real and tangible (and therefore the logical), just as every day we see a miracle on the Altar.

So if God can make the rules of the Universe, why in other threads has it been said it is a logical contradiction for him to make us free-willed gods like himself?

 

[catholictiger]

Yes and no.

God is rational, in fact, as a perfect being He is the summit of rationality and reason. From that rationality and reason, then, He has created the Universe which is likewise composed of laws. Our human concept of laws constitutes, in part, what we define as “logic”.

Now, to understand, this “logic” is part and parcel with creation… much of it applies to problems which exist only within creation… so in a sense, God is not bound by the “logic” of this universe, because said Logic is a creation of this universe. All God has to do is say something seemingly nonsensical (take, for instance, holding up a piece of bread and saying “This is My Body”) and the universe reorders itself to the will of God… the “illogical” becomes the real and tangible (and therefore the logical), just as every day we see a miracle on the Altar.

However, does God act illogically then? No, not really… The fact that the rules of logic exist stems from the fact that it has an integral place in God’s plan and creation, and that, therefore, logic and rationality garners its creation from elements of God’s character (just as what is good is good because it is in keeping with God’s character). In other words, God is rational, and the rules of logic reflect that rationality of God… so while the rules of logic are God’s creation, and they are subject to God, they are an enduring element of God’s creation which stem from His perfect and unchanging rationality, and so the reflection is indicative of our expectation of God: that He behaves rationally (because He is rational).

In other words, we have logic because God is rational, and so despite the fact that He is not bound by the rules of logic, God still behaves rationally… which looks very logical from our perspective.

Logic is a construct of the human mind to explain could things exist in this world or in other possible worlds. Things like a square circle cannot exist in ANY world, because it is illogical.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

But if God made logic, It could be whatever he wants.

 

[Khalid]

But it must be in accordance with his being. That means, it is what it is, but the rules could have been different, conceivably, if God’s being was different - but they could never change and must be self-consistent, as God is immutable and eternal.

 

[catholictiger]

But if God made logic, It could be whatever he wants.

no incorrect, plus I don’t think God made logic, Logic is something that was throughout up by human beings to describe if something can possibly exist in any world. IF something is logical that means if all the precepts are true then the conclusion must be true.

For example

Humans Can Fly
Joe Bob is a Human
Joe Bob can Fly

while you may think this is a illogical statement it actually is logical, if there was a world that Human Beings could fly (you could argue this one) then because Joe Bob is Human he can fly

This statement though is illogical

by its definition an all powerful being should be able to create anything he wants
he can’t create a rock he can’t life
therefore no all powerful being can exist

that is illogical because it is illogical to say that something that is all power, meaning he can life anything can create something so heavy he himself can’t life it.

this can be hard to rap your head around because illogical things can be hard to grasp because most of our minds like to think in logical rational ways so when you try to show that something is illogical sometimes your brain makes wrong assumptions like saying an all powerful being not being able to life something is logical. Or being able to create a square circle is logical. When it is far from the case

God is bound by Logic by the fact that ALL beings are bound by logic. But this fact doesn’t limit him because, you can’t be limited by something that isn’t possible to do even for the most powerful being.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

no incorrect, plus I don’t think God made logic, Logic is something that was throughout up by human beings to describe if something can possibly exist in any world. IF something is logical that means if all the precepts are true then the conclusion must be true.

For example

Humans Can Fly
Joe Bob is a Human
Joe Bob can Fly

while you may think this is a illogical statement it actually is logical, if there was a world that Human Beings could fly (you could argue this one) then because Joe Bob is Human he can fly

This statement though is illogical

by its definition an all powerful being should be able to create anything he wants
he can’t create a rock he can’t life
therefore no all powerful being can exist

that is illogical because it is illogical to say that something that is all power, meaning he can life anything can create something so heavy he himself can’t life it.

this can be hard to rap your head around because illogical things can be hard to grasp because most of our minds like to think in logical rational ways so when you try to show that something is illogical sometimes your brain makes wrong assumptions like saying an all powerful being not being able to life something is logical. Or being able to create a square circle is logical. When it is far from the case

God is bound by Logic by the fact that ALL beings are bound by logic. But this fact doesn’t limit him because, you can’t be limited by something that isn’t possible to do even for the most powerful being.

God is at his foundation the simplest and most authoritative reality. At the level of the core of his being, he is before even logic and reason. That he has immutably created logic and reason and set all his creatures to abide by them means that surely all lower and more complex realities must conform to them, and he himself has chosen to conform to them for, “he does not deny himself”, but that doesn’t change the fact that if he had instead proclaimed the possibility of relativistic pluralism then a square round would be possible. The fact that he did otherwise implies that these are contrary to his nature and being.

 

[promethius]

So if God can make the rules of the Universe, why in other threads has it been said it is a logical contradiction for him to make us free-willed gods like himself?

As I said, logic is a reflection of God… so logic can be used to discover things about God’s nature… such as His perfection (and a perfect being does not make other perfect beings, which if God were to make us as infinite and perfect Himself, he would then require).

To say that logic is a construct of God is not to say it is not useful… it is merely to say that it, just like all other laws, are subject to God (and not the other way around).

 

[promethius]

Logic is a construct of the human mind to explain could things exist in this world or in other possible worlds. Things like a square circle cannot exist in ANY world, because it is illogical.

Actually, mathematically speaking a round square is possible if you fiddle with the physical dimensions of the Universe. A square circle is an inconceivable idea in THIS world, because THIS world is a construct with given natural laws (such as “nothing can be infinite within a finite universe”).

We have the logical constructs that we do because they are human observations of the nature of the universe that we live in… not because they are universals that apply outside of our limited universe.

But if God made logic, It could be whatever he wants.

Yes! Isn’t it awesome?!?!

God is at his foundation the simplest and most authoritative reality. At the level of the core of his being, he is before even logic and reason. That he has immutably created logic and reason and set all his creatures to abide by them means that surely all lower and more complex realities must conform to them, and he himself has chosen to conform to them for, “he does not deny himself”, but that doesn’t change the fact that if he had instead proclaimed the possibility of relativistic pluralism then a square round would be possible.

This right here!

We observe the reality we do, and create rules of logic based on that construction. God, however, is unlimited, and could have fashioned the universe any way He chose.

 

[catholictiger]

Actually, mathematically speaking a round square is possible if you fiddle with the physical dimensions of the Universe. A square circle is an inconceivable idea in THIS world, because THIS world is a construct with given natural laws (such as “nothing can be infinite within a finite universe”).

We have the logical constructs that we do because they are human observations of the nature of the universe that we live in… not because they are universals that apply outside of our limited universe.

how about God being able to create something he can’t lift

or Can God make 2+2=5

on your second point, can you think of a world where 2+2 doesn’t equal 4 or 2+2 equals 5, or a square is a 3 sided figure?

No, God is all powerful in the sense that God can do everything that logically impossible.

Creating a 3 sided Sqaure or a 4 sided triangle.

Or God creating something that he can’t lift when he is possible.

Logical concepts are determined by this world, while you may come to the conclusion that 2+2=4 from observation in this world, that statement is true no matter what world you live in given infinite possible worlds.

 

[catholictiger]

God is at his foundation the simplest and most authoritative reality. At the level of the core of his being, he is before even logic and reason. That he has immutably created logic and reason and set all his creatures to abide by them means that surely all lower and more complex realities must conform to them, and he himself has chosen to conform to them for, “he does not deny himself”, but that doesn’t change the fact that if he had instead proclaimed the possibility of relativistic pluralism then a square round would be possible. The fact that he did otherwise implies that these are contrary to his nature and being.

let me just ask you this question do you believe that God is all powerful to do all things that aren’t logically impossible?

or Is God able to do things that are also logically impossible?

 

[CeaselessMedik]

Your God could do the impossible - if he wrote logic such that it is possible in that new logic.