Is God bound by logic?

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Your God could do the impossible - if he wrote logic such that it is possible in that new logic.

Yes precisely, logic is his and he made it just how he meant to. He authored reason and could have done it anyway it pleased him to. His edicts on the nature of the reality he formed, that can exist only in him, are set in metaphorical stone though. He could have made 2+2=5 but he chose not to.

 

[Publisher]

Who’s logic? Man’s…or God’s? God’s “logic” may not even be comprehensible to humanity…do ants wonder if humans have logic?

 

[CeaselessMedik]

As I said, logic is a reflection of God… so logic can be used to discover things about God’s nature… such as His perfection (and a perfect being does not make other perfect beings, which if God were to make us as infinite and perfect Himself, he would then require).

To say that logic is a construct of God is not to say it is not useful… it is merely to say that it, just like all other laws, are subject to God (and not the other way around).

So in essence you’re saying “because God said so,” or “He could have but decided not to.”

 

[promethius]

how about God being able to create something he can’t lift

You didn’t catch my reference to “can’t have an infinite object in a finite universe” did you? That refers specifically to what you mentioned here.

An object too big for something of infinite lifting strength to move would have to be infinite itself, however the constraints of THIS UNIVERSE are finite, ergo in THIS universe, no finite object can exist… and since we have no indication that rocks exist outside of the universe, the only logical construct is that such a rock is nonsensical.

That, however, does nothing to say that human observation of a creation built around God’s rationality.

or Can God make 2+2=5

God can make bread and wine into Body and Blood, God can die and raise again, God can turn water into wine and walk on the surface of raging seas.

I sincerely doubt that simple math modification (which would actually just be a language modification) is beyond His control.

on your second point, can you think of a world where 2+2 doesn’t equal 4

As a physics major, 2+2 does not ALWAYS equal 4 in THIS world. 2 + 2 = 4 is only true in single dimension vector addition (namely, that the vectors lie exactly parallel to the X axis of the reference frame).

2 + 2 can equal any number between - 4 and + 4… and that’s if we constrain ourselves to 2 dimensional addition with only results on the X-axis… if we move to three dimensions and allow the results anywhere… well… that just complicates things…

or 2+2 equals 5

Sure, bend space.

or a square is a 3 sided figure?

Square is a term that only has meaning in the English Language. I’m pretty certain that some far off future society could invent a language where square referred to what we know as a triangle…

and that’s the point: logical constructs are human observations on the construction of a rational God.

Logical concepts are determined by this world, while you may come to the conclusion that 2+2=4 from observation in this world, that statement is true no matter what world you live in given infinite possible worlds.

Given infinite possible worlds with these physical laws and dimensions, yes. But what about a world where time was not a symetric vector, where length was a straight vector, but width was a curve, where gravity was a negative vector, or any other number of physical laws that could have been different? What would a square look like if we drew it on a curved width vector? Unfortunately, we don’t know… because despite the fact that such a dimension is mathematically possible, it doesn’t exist in reality… so our logical constructs about squares having four sides and not being “circular” are all built around a universe where we have width and height, and both are straight vectors.

Besides, the implications of a God who is subservient to a higher “logical law” are horrifying…

 

[promethius]

So in essence you’re saying “because God said so,” or “He could have but decided not to.”

Yes exactly. He is not bound by our logic (which are our constructs based on our experience of this universe) and yet the building of this universe reflects the supreme characteristics of God… who is rational. Thus God chose rationally to build a universe which reflected His rationality… even though the rules of that rationality didn’t HAVE to be that way.

And if God had created the universe differently, then what He had then created would have been the basis for our logic under THAT construct instead, and we would be having this question from that context instead (and someone would be scoffing “so you think that God can make a blorpo with no blipkis? HA!”).

 

[clmowry]

So if God can make the rules of the Universe, why in other threads has it been said it is a logical contradiction for him to make us free-willed gods like himself?

How could there possibly be two all powerful first causes of all things?

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

How pray tell does bending space make 2 + 2 = 5?

Chuck

 

[promethius]

How pray tell does bending space make 2 + 2 = 5?

Chuck

If I put my two vectors only on the Y-Z plane and bend the X-Axis such that the point for 5 is tangential to the Y plane anywhere between 0 and 4, then I can construct my vectors such that they touch the five on the X-axis. Since I’ve now malformed space, and my vectors have no X component to malform, they can now intersect with a point on the Y axis and a point on the X axis at the same time.

That was actually how Einstein theorized that we might one day be able to travel between stars… bend space, make a short hop to the bent area, and then simply let it all unfold. Highly theoretical, yes, and I think that the whole thing would probably be massively destructive to the universe if it were even possible, but still…

 

[clmowry]

If I put my two vectors only on the Y-Z plane and bend the X-Axis such that the point for 5 is tangential to the Y plane anywhere between 0 and 4, then I can construct my vectors such that they touch the five on the X-axis. Since I’ve now malformed space, and my vectors have no X component to malform, they can now intersect with a point on the Y axis and a point on the X axis at the same time.

That was actually how Einstein theorized that we might one day be able to travel between stars… bend space, make a short hop to the bent area, and then simply let it all unfold. Highly theoretical, yes, and I think that the whole thing would probably be massively destructive to the universe if it were even possible, but still…

That make a trip of 4 in two dimensions equal a trip of 5 in three dimensions. ( Which presumably hGod could do.). That doen’t make 2 + 2 = 5.

I don’t thing changing the definitions of 4 and 5 in the English language does so either.

I can take two 2 cu ft containers of gas and release them into a 5 cu ft vacuum. That doesn’t make 2+2=5 either.

What am I missing?

Chuck

 

[CeaselessMedik]

How could there possibly be two all powerful first causes of all things?

Why would there need to be a creation? We could hang in Heaven or “wherever” God would exist.

 

[ChesterBeach]

The Trinity is 1+1+1=1

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

The Trinity is 1+1+1=1

That is three persons in one nature. It only doesn’t make sense if you don’t know the distinction between natures and persons. St.Athanasius explains it better than I can:

Quicunque Vult (Athanasian Creed):
If anybody wants to be saved, first of all it is necessary that they hold the Catholic Faith.
Because unless everyone keeps this Faith completely and purely, without doubt they shall not be saved.
And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither mixing up the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
What the Father is, that is what the Son is, and also what the Holy Spirit is.
The Father was not created by anyone, the Son was not created by anyone, and the Holy Spirit was not created by anyone.
The Father is beyond our understanding, the Son is beyond our understanding, and the Holy Spirit is beyond our understanding.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
And yet they are not three who are eternal, but one who is eternal.
And they are not three who are beyond our understanding, nor three who were not created by anyone, but one uncreated, and one beyond our understanding.
So in the same way the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the Holy Spirit is Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So in the same way the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
For just as the Christian Truth forces us to acknowledge each Person in and of himself to be both God and Lord, so the Catholic Religion forbids us to say there are three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is from no one, neither created, nor begotten.
The Son comes from the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is from the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And in this Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another;
So that in all things, as was said before, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
Whoever wants to be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation also to believe correctly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Human;
God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Human, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Human, continually existing as a rational soul and human flesh together;
Equal to the Father, as God; and inferior to the Father, as human.
Who although he is God and Human, yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One, not be changing the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the Humanity into God;
One altogether; not by mixing up the Substance of God and Human, but by uniting them in one person.
For as the rational soul and flesh together in one person is one human, so God and Human together in one person is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, he sits at the right hands of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At whose coming all persons shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, without which there is no salvation.

Any questions?
(BTW this prayer is where I truly learned the place of mary, as it makes clear that he is of one substance with the father in his divine nature, and in a similar manner of one substance with his mother in his human nature.)

 

[ChesterBeach]

From The CCC

251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.82

 

[Quarles47]

The question here should be, “Is God greater then logic?” To bind God is to have power over God.

Now to see how many misconstrue that.

 

[Ignatius]

^^^

The question reveals a lack of knowledge of what logic is.
Logic is a means of the discovery of truth, God IS Truth!

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

From The CCC

251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.82

I never claimed to understand the trinity, but we can understand certain revealed truths about the trinity. Such as that the trinity is one nature or Godhead in three divine persons. Each person is equally possessed of the one infinite nature.

 

[ChesterBeach]

I never claimed to understand the trinity, but we can understand certain revealed truths about the trinity. Such as that the trinity is one nature or Godhead in three divine persons. Each person is equally possessed of the one infinite nature.

Right 3=1 and 1=3, It’s a mystery.

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

 

[catholictiger]

If I put my two vectors only on the Y-Z plane and bend the X-Axis such that the point for 5 is tangential to the Y plane anywhere between 0 and 4, then I can construct my vectors such that they touch the five on the X-axis. Since I’ve now malformed space, and my vectors have no X component to malform, they can now intersect with a point on the Y axis and a point on the X axis at the same time.

That was actually how Einstein theorized that we might one day be able to travel between stars… bend space, make a short hop to the bent area, and then simply let it all unfold. Highly theoretical, yes, and I think that the whole thing would probably be massively destructive to the universe if it were even possible, but still…

this is way to confusing for someone like me.

Pretty much what it seems like you are doing is taking a statement which I think false and you prove how you can make it true.

try this one for size can God create something he can’t life. If he can what does that say about him being all powerful?

My point is I believe God is omnipotent but this omnipotent doesn’t mean God can do things that aren’t logical. When I say god is omnipotent I mean god can do anything that isn’t logically impossible. For a philosophical mind like myself I have trouble believing that God can do things that are logically impossible by the simple fact that they are logically impossible. I know you explained some crazy math that says you can make a square circle. I’m sure you could say the same about creating a 4 sided triangle. But my point is that there are things that can’t logically happen and because they can’t logically happen, nothing can do it not even God. But that doesn’t take away is omnipotence. Your just saying what no being can possibly do. I’m also not saying that this has power over God because philosophically that doesn’t work either. Some of these concepts can be hard to rap your head around but one thing is simple for me God can do everything that is possible, or God can’t do anything that is impossible. The only impossible things for God is logically impossible things.

By all of this above the answer to the OP is God bound by logic is yes, simply because the fact that you exists makes you bound by logic.

to get into metaphysics, its like saying that God isn’t all powerful because he doesn’t have the ability to be a non active being. But all beings must be active in order to exist, meaning God who is pure act must be acting always, even if it is with none outside of his existence. So him not being able to be non act and exist doesn’t take away from his omnipotence. (btw if you have studied metaphysic or St Thomas Aquinas this should sound like gibberish to you.)

 

[CeaselessMedik]

From The CCC

251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: “substance”, “person” or “hypostasis”, “relation” and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, “infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand”.82

Sounds like God not even acting beyond logic, but actually being beyond it.
As for logic being a means to the truth, if you take the “truth” to be what you think God says it is, you’re kind of missing the point of my comment.

 

[ChesterBeach]

Sounds like God not even acting beyond logic, but actually being beyond it.
As for logic being a means to the truth, if you take the “truth” to be what you think God says it is, you’re kind of missing the point of my comment.

That was my point. At the heart of Christianity there is the mystery of the Trinity. It can’t be understood by “human” logic. You can approach the concept but you can’t get there. It’s the finite mind trying to grasp the infinite.