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PJM
Guest
What can we know about God?
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Trishie
Guest
Certainly as much as we can know Christ.
Phillip said to Him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known me, Phillip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’” (John 14:7–9*).
I’m beginning to believe that the person I know who most deeply knows God, is my Dad. He profoundly accepts that we can’t know God as He is, and when he perceives any human understanding of God is taken as being God, he feels it is blasphemy. Even to assign gender to the Holy Spirit feels as if blasphemy to him. He has the most profound awe for God.
Phillip said to Him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known me, Phillip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’” (John 14:7–9*).
I’m beginning to believe that the person I know who most deeply knows God, is my Dad. He profoundly accepts that we can’t know God as He is, and when he perceives any human understanding of God is taken as being God, he feels it is blasphemy. Even to assign gender to the Holy Spirit feels as if blasphemy to him. He has the most profound awe for God.
D
Detales
Guest
Be still, and know that “I AM” (is) God.
“Gnothi Seauton” (Know thySelf)~~ said in any number of cultures, faiths, and philosophies since Man was self-aware.
“I AM” (is) the Way, the Truth, and the Light.
No one enters the Kingdom except through I AM (“me” = “what I AM”)
After a mild trauma that shocked my sense of self into another realm of consideration, I went on a quest that led me to a wonderous discovery. I offer these statements after forty five years of consideration of the Bible and other Scriptures. Think about this: Jesus was speaking as God to locals who might never see another incarnation of Truth. He was forced in that regard to self/Self reference His statements. Remember, at that time a horse or ship were the fastest methods of communication.
Even as little as forty years ago a friend of mine, who was the first white that a group of Guatamalans had ever seen, asked him where he was from. He explained he was from California, in the United States. They, in all sincerity, asked him if that was in the next valley. Did not similar conditions exist at the time of Jesus, despite the growing Roman influence?
Jesus, in my understanding, is one of the continually appearing (“I” shall come again) proponents of Truth that have graced us through the ages. Due to the conditions and general level of understanding of that time, much of what He said has been misconstrued.
This may be understood if the other proponents of Jesus’ teachings are read, practiced, and known.
I recommend to you:
Shankara
Franklin Merrell-Wolff
Nisargadatta
Ramana Maharshi
Toni Roberson
Kenneth G. Mills
Byron Katie
Krishnamurti
“Gnothi Seauton” (Know thySelf)~~ said in any number of cultures, faiths, and philosophies since Man was self-aware.
“I AM” (is) the Way, the Truth, and the Light.
No one enters the Kingdom except through I AM (“me” = “what I AM”)
After a mild trauma that shocked my sense of self into another realm of consideration, I went on a quest that led me to a wonderous discovery. I offer these statements after forty five years of consideration of the Bible and other Scriptures. Think about this: Jesus was speaking as God to locals who might never see another incarnation of Truth. He was forced in that regard to self/Self reference His statements. Remember, at that time a horse or ship were the fastest methods of communication.
Even as little as forty years ago a friend of mine, who was the first white that a group of Guatamalans had ever seen, asked him where he was from. He explained he was from California, in the United States. They, in all sincerity, asked him if that was in the next valley. Did not similar conditions exist at the time of Jesus, despite the growing Roman influence?
Jesus, in my understanding, is one of the continually appearing (“I” shall come again) proponents of Truth that have graced us through the ages. Due to the conditions and general level of understanding of that time, much of what He said has been misconstrued.
This may be understood if the other proponents of Jesus’ teachings are read, practiced, and known.
I recommend to you:
Shankara
Franklin Merrell-Wolff
Nisargadatta
Ramana Maharshi
Toni Roberson
Kenneth G. Mills
Byron Katie
Krishnamurti
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PJM
Guest
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MindOverMatter
Guest
If you’re approaching this topic from a philosophical perspective, then first we must know what God is not, before we can know what God is. This is the Thomistic approach.
For instance, once we know that God is not time/space or energy, we can know that God is eternal and non-physical. Therefore, deductively speaking, we can also know that God must have a perfect eternal will, since nothing that is timeless can be random, or occur by chance, or even decide over a period of time what it is that one wishes to create. And so, God must be a perfect eternal cause by nature of Gods being. Also, God must be eternal love by his very nature, since that is the only logical reason i can think of that would motivate a timeless being. If God is timeless love, then that would make sense of the existence of things such as time/space/energy and personal creatures, since an eternal personal love is forever in the act of eternally sharing its existence.
We can also know that if God is eternal being, uncaused, then God is one and the same with Existence; since only the nature that is “existence” can exist by its own essence.
It must also be true, considering that God is perfect love, that God is his own company of persons. Logically speaking, God would not be perfect love if God was one lonely person that created people for entertainment and company. Love by its very nature is something that is share between persons. God is complete; and therefore God is one nature eternally expressed through multiple individual persons.
Now that we have metaphysical knowledge that God is perfect Love and Existence, we can now know that all persons in existence are eternally and perfectly loved and judged by the standard of perfect love. We also know that such a being would do anything to save us from moral evil, since a morally evil being cannot exist happily in an entity that is eternal love and perfection. God would do anything that is possible…even die on a cross.
This sounds strangely like the God of Christianity doesn’t it!
I might give you some more later. Tell me what you think of that.
T
The_Fool
Guest
Everything when you reach heaven. Until then, you’ll have to settle for whatever He throws your way. Although I think the Angelic Doctor said you could know God by using logic. I might have that wrong though. What I do know is that every time I have an epiphany it disappears in a matter of moments and I’m left trying to remember what it was.
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blackst
Guest
Try looking into a book where the epiphany appeared, writing it down, or asking God to reveal it to you again, as for logic, God gave this ability for us to know him deeper than just faith, if you believe in something sooner or later you have to define what it is you believe. Logic or reason is how we come to know facts, for if we had no reasoning ability we could not understand any intutition or epiphanies.
Logic to determine truth, God being truth, God being Omnipotence, proof of God being Omnipotence in the fact that he knows all souls and all hearts and all knowledge, but doesn’t know our choices, we don’t even know what we will do until faced with a situation.
We can plan for a situation, butr their may be factors we didn’t consider, is it ever wrong to break the law, the law of God or man, of course it is, Jesus broke them all the time, if we break a law out of love of another, or to prove a point to someone or teach someone a greater truth, we have done no wrong.
We can be moral all day and have no love, and be far from truth.
Logic is Love in action, seeking the correct action for the correct situation is truth, their is no truth for every situation, I believe in absolute truth, that God exists, that their are laws and a law giver, when we choose to act out of a motive other than love their is negative consequences.
No god is not God, their is only one original God, the rest are imitators.
May Gods Grace be with you in your choices.
B
blackst
Guest
Why so you say God is non-physical, how do you know this?If you’re approaching this topic from a philosophical perspective, then first we must know what God is not, before we can know what God is. This is the Thomistic approach.
For instance, once we know that God is not time/space or energy, we can know that God is eternal and non-physical. Therefore, deductively speaking, we can also know that God must have a perfect eternal will, since nothing that is timeless can be random, or occur by chance, or even decide over a period of time what it is that one wishes to create. And so, God must be a perfect eternal cause by nature of Gods being. Also, God must be eternal love by his very nature, since that is the only logical reason i can think of that would motivate a timeless being. If God is timeless love, then that would make sense of the existence of things such as time/space/energy and personal creatures, since an eternal personal love is forever in the act of eternally sharing its existence.
We can also know that if God is eternal being, uncaused, then God is one and the same with Existence; since only the nature that is “existence” can exist by its own essence.
It must also be true, considering that God is perfect love, that God is his own company of persons. Logically speaking, God would not be perfect love if God was one lonely person that created people for entertainment and company. Love by its very nature is something that is share between persons. God is complete; and therefore God is one nature eternally expressed through multiple individual persons.
Now that we have metaphysical knowledge that God is perfect Love and Existence, we can now know that all persons in existence are eternally and perfectly loved and judged by the standard of perfect love. We also know that such a being would do anything to save us from moral evil, since a morally evil being cannot exist happily in an entity that is eternal love and perfection. God would do anything that is possible…even die on a cross.
This sounds strangely like the God of Christianity doesn’t it!
I might give you some more later. Tell me what you think of that.
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PJM
Guest
This sounds strangely like the God of Christianity doesn’t it!
Beautifully composed gets you an A for effort
The explaination is excellent, however your still strugeling with the understanding, so I give you C for understanding
Friend, you still don’t have a firm grip on Gods Nature. Indeed God is and must be “Perfect Love” as you have stated. It’s from that point on that you seem to stray from the truth. And, as bright as you are, you know that there can only BE ONE TRUTH for a single issue.
So my friend, is God, ONLY, “Perfect Love?” No, of course not.
God is and has to be every good thing. agreed?
So are "fairness and Justice “good things?” Certainly.
Your understanding of a “Perfect, Loving, Fair and Just God” doing “anything” (one assumes you also mean EVERYTHING) to keep us moral evil," fails the test of truth and even the test of LOGIC.
Is Abortion evil? Is envy evil, is stealing evil, is fraud evil? Do you see where I’m heading?
Obviously and indisputibily, evil exist in the world. Now are you ready for my next statement?
It’s God’s fault!
How and why, you ask.
Because God Created us, and we can do evil! Germany, WWII prison camps and the killing of MILLIONS OF JEWS for example!
But is it really God’s fault? No, of course not!
However, God gives to humanity a mind, and intellect, a freewill, all of which, and definitely are at times misued. Our choice, not God’s.
The other point, you actually mention and then gloss over it.
God is Perfectly and COMPLETELY everything good.
Therefore nothing humanity does or can do, makes God any more Perfect, or any less Perfectly GOOD!
Humanity was Created to “know, Love and serve God” but the benefit is all ours! And so when we fail to meet the purpose of our Creation, fail to know, love and serve God, IN DIVINE JUSTICE, we must, and most certainly pay the price!
And for the RECORD:
God’s dying on the Cross was an act of Redemption, BUT NOT necessarly, an act of Salvation! Thanks to The Love and Mercy of God Heaven has again become POSSIBLE!
That is what Jesus accomplished on the Cross. Look in Websters: “Redemption” and “Salvation” are not even close to being synomous terms
Love and prayers, Brother Jerry
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Detales
Guest
Without addressing the bulk of your comment, PJM, I have to say that your statement
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PJM
Guest
=Detales;5001037]Without addressing the bulk of your comment, PJM, I have to say that your statement
assumption and semantic implication is that you , personally, have a firm grip on God’s Nature. GOD’s Nature!!! What astonishing effrontry and incalculable intellectual turpitude! Even from a Catholic! That is shameful, sir. Shameful! I won’t give you a grade on your “understanding” as you have done so yourself.
My dear friend in Christ,
**Wow!**And I even understood the big words
Friend your responce deserves a thoughful reply which I can’t do this evening. Its been a very long day, and tomorrow I am participating in an RCIA all day retreat, so it may be Sunday before I am able to respond.
Please know, I take your comments seriously, and when I examine my conscience tonight, I’ll ask the Holy Spirit to enlighten me, as to any guilt on my part.
Love and prayers, and I’ll get back to you as quickly as I am able.
Pat
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Detales
Guest
PJM, I look forward to your reply.
I was going out the door and that one line just stuck out for me so brightly I had to say something. No one of us are perfect as person, and that on just struck a nerve, and me without my novocain! And it wasn’t you, personally, it was the idea that a person could have an intellectual “firm grip” on the Supreme. The thimble holding the ocean sort of thing; that is how I read it.
I don’t doubt you understood the “big” words. Clearly you are intelligent, something I conclude from having read many of your posts. It was just something about that one line.
Be Blessed,
Bindar
I was going out the door and that one line just stuck out for me so brightly I had to say something. No one of us are perfect as person, and that on just struck a nerve, and me without my novocain! And it wasn’t you, personally, it was the idea that a person could have an intellectual “firm grip” on the Supreme. The thimble holding the ocean sort of thing; that is how I read it.
I don’t doubt you understood the “big” words. Clearly you are intelligent, something I conclude from having read many of your posts. It was just something about that one line.
Be Blessed,
Bindar
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PJM
Guest
Sounds like I may have stumbled on one of those “open mouth, insert foot”
moments
I think my friend what we have here is a failure on my part to articulate in a meaninful way, what I was trying to share. :blush:Sorry, my fault!
I’m no dummy but I failed to express my understanding that the Perfection, Complete and total Goodness of God cannot, and never shall this side of heaven be comprehended by humanity, and MOST CERTAINLY that includes little old me
But I have long been facinated about some of the glaring differences between The Old Testament **Yahweh God, **who wrought judgement after judgement on “His people” for disobedience, and then add to this the seemingly vengefull Nature of God’s Judgements, that so scared His People that they would not even metion His Name in Public. Indeed, God Himself seems to endorse such an understanding, by telling Moses that my name is “I Am!”
Then add to this the number or wars, battles and people God permitted to be exterminated, and wow, that is some God!
Now we look not only at the life of Christ, but ask, "why was He sent into the world."
Most of us would agree that God did so out of Love, and because of the Just Nature, that makes “God-God” He had to have an offering, a Sacrifice worthy of forgiviness for sinfull humanity through all ages. God in God’s Wisdom, which too is Perfect, determined that the only Sacrifical offering of this magnitude was to offer, quite literally Himself. to Himself.
So now we see a different “kind of God”, seemingly transformed into a God of Love, Mercy and Compassion. So where, how did the transformation take place?
**Actually it didn’t! God is, always was, and always will be the same **, Perfect, and a Completely (everything) Good, God. It’s our perception, our understanding that has changed, as God is and has to be constantly Good God.
What one sees often in the current age is a reverse reaction to the Old testament Yahweh God, being mean and vengeful, (overlooking God’s repeated Mercy and Loving Forgiveness), and today a very common understanding of God (same God — different people; or are we?) we see God, THANKS TO JESUS, as Loving, Kind, and Merciful. And yet, it’s the same God. Now there is a tendancy (for example: OSAS) to accept God only as Loving, Merciful, Kind, Forgiving, and Compassionate, and overlook, Gods Fairness and Justice.What we might term as God’s NECESSARY TOUGH LOVE. Made necessary by God’s Just and Fair Natural attributes, added too all his other completely Good attributes.
It would appear that humanity, not only struggles to “find God” but even when we do, we struggle understanding ** with our limited ability to comprehend anything approaching the “fullness” of God’s Perfect and Complete Everything Goodness. Clearly we are able to see and grasp, and the “limited fullness” that it seems God wants us to have, and indeed is essential in order for us to have a Loving Personal Relationship with Him:thumbsup:.**
Note please, that I put “fullness” in QUOTE marks, knowing fullwell that, as I indicated above that this side of Heaven, we can know God, and God wishes us to know Him intimately; **thus Catolics who are informed, practicing Catholics are Blessed with the Gift of God, By God, For God, Holy Communion, that Really is the Glorified Body, Blood Sould and Divinity of the very same Jesus born of Mary. (Jn.6:40-60 **read it outloud and then ask yourself what you heard yourself read. Then ask who’s words are they? Then acknowledge that they are God’s Words and that God cannot lie!
But even with this Miracle of Miracles; we can ONLY KNOW GOD sufficienty in this life, to return back to God, our “freewills” and Know, Love and Serve Him! We can only know God to the limit God allows us to, but that will always be sufficient to enter into a Loving Persoan Relationship with Him
AMEN? Amen!
Love and prayers (I pray I did a bit better this time:blush:
D
Detales
Guest
Hi PJM,
Well, glad that’s over, lol! Thanks for your reply.
Yes, I had some of the same wonderings as yours as frosting on top of an already thick cake. I never for a moment doubted God, and my certainty has only increased with time and experience. However, I came to some radically different conclusions than you did, for reasons based on the need for an empirical accounting. Faith worked well for me up to the time that my understanding of the world as I knew it was pulled unceremoniously out from under me. Such answers as I really needed were not forthcoming from the Church ethier in the person of clerics or in the contents of teaching, dogma, or tradition. Later I discovered that some aspects of Catholic culture approached a way of resoulution, but even in those cases a more necessary and general solution was needed.
But I am happy for those who are happy with what they have. I usually do not recommend the route I took, as it was dangerous, but in my case there was no other road that I could see, despite sincere efforts. Fortunately, my arduous prayers were answered and I at last found a cognative and empirical line that explained everything beyone my wildest expectations. But, as I implied, it is a flavor of tea palatable to perhaps one in a million. That is as it should be. Othing I am not looking for is to convince anyone of the Way of my understanding. I do like to state my point of view, occasionally, despite some surprising flak. Nevertheless, I do find some interesting conversations on here, and get to dredge up some bits of forgotten lore to look at and re-asses, so I’m glad to be here and meet nice folks such as yourself.
Well, glad that’s over, lol! Thanks for your reply.
Yes, I had some of the same wonderings as yours as frosting on top of an already thick cake. I never for a moment doubted God, and my certainty has only increased with time and experience. However, I came to some radically different conclusions than you did, for reasons based on the need for an empirical accounting. Faith worked well for me up to the time that my understanding of the world as I knew it was pulled unceremoniously out from under me. Such answers as I really needed were not forthcoming from the Church ethier in the person of clerics or in the contents of teaching, dogma, or tradition. Later I discovered that some aspects of Catholic culture approached a way of resoulution, but even in those cases a more necessary and general solution was needed.
But I am happy for those who are happy with what they have. I usually do not recommend the route I took, as it was dangerous, but in my case there was no other road that I could see, despite sincere efforts. Fortunately, my arduous prayers were answered and I at last found a cognative and empirical line that explained everything beyone my wildest expectations. But, as I implied, it is a flavor of tea palatable to perhaps one in a million. That is as it should be. Othing I am not looking for is to convince anyone of the Way of my understanding. I do like to state my point of view, occasionally, despite some surprising flak. Nevertheless, I do find some interesting conversations on here, and get to dredge up some bits of forgotten lore to look at and re-asses, so I’m glad to be here and meet nice folks such as yourself.
A
annem
Guest
Detales, I believe in a different thread you claimed to read have read Harpur’s book, which claims Christianity came from pagan myths. This is a book by a fringe writer, not a biblical scholar, and the book is as full of holes as swiss cheese. Perhaps you need to read some decent books about the church.
This is another thing you claimed, or one of your Buddhist friends. It’s the sort of thing est people used to say to try and lure suckers into their psychobabble scam. Surely choosing a philosophy, especially one that is easy, is easy.
May God grant you a million miracles, Annem
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Blade_and_Blood
Guest
It depends on your perspective… and your personal beliefs… and your personal experiences… and what others say… and what you’ve been taught… and possibly even other faiths and religions–by comparing and contrasting what various beliefs and belief systems teach.
But, generally speaking, we do know one thing: God may or may not exist.
Well, this is coming from an Agnostic.
So, you know, it’s just my two cents. Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
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PJM
Guest
Code:
Thanks so much for the kind words.
While I cannot know the path you chose, nor you mine, it is of little matter. What matters is the “ Light” at the end of the tunnel.
Your selection of Mark 4:33-34, articulates well one of the most amazing things, most amazing attributes of our God. “He is “OUR” God.
The more I learn, the closer I come into personal relationship with Christ, the more confounded I am at what a Personal, caring Loving father He is.
What have we ever done, or what can we ever do, to be worthy of such agape Love?
Dear friend, may the peace, the joy and the Love of our Most Amazing and Personal God be with you and your, today and all of your tomorrow’sLove and peace my friend. I would be most honored to discuss any topic or issue you’d to introduce.
Pat
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MindOverMatter
Guest
Lets see what it is you are getting at.Beautifully composed gets you an A for effort
The explaination is excellent, however your still strugeling with the understanding, so I give you C for understanding
True.
I never said that God was only perfect love. I only suggested that he must necessarily be perfect love on the premise of a logical deduction made in regards to a metaphysical first cause. If you read my post carefully, i also mention that God is existence, and is also personal in nature; not to mention eternal. This i can know from deduction.
God is perfectly good. This necessarily means that there is no such thing as good outside of God.
Yep.
One can assume that i mean everything; but i of coarse, **presume **that the reader has a sufficient understanding of the nature of love. Once one understands the nature of love, they will know that there are certain things that follow to be logically impossible in respect of love. For example, God being love, cannot force people to act in a loving manner toward each other. Another example would be that God cannot create something that is perfect, since that would be creating another God, which is a logical impossibility. Such a being can only influence and act according to its fundamental nature, and cannot contradict its own nature. But that would not be a limit on Gods nature, since the logically impossible is not real. Gods nature, being Love, only becomes questionable if he cannot or refuses to do the logically possible in relation to right and wrong.Perhaps i should have explained the nature of love in more depth. But that would have taking us in to a tangent; and i don’t think it is necessarily, since the justification of Gods action is a different question to what we can metaphysically know about God. In regards to the original question, i believe that my post was generally correct.
This is a question about Theodicy. Although the original question could be stretched to include Theodicy (the justification of God), I can only assumed that the original question was about defining what God is according to logic. Again what God is, can be affected by what you define God to be according to your religion. But i assumed we were talking about the Monotheistic God of Abraham. I guess assumptions can get you in to all sorts of bother.
Now we are getting in to theology. My statement that God died on the cross in order to save us, is still generally true. The fact that we must freely accept the salvation of God, is a matter of theology, and does not really fall into the bounds of the original post. The original question is not what we must do to be saved, but rather it is about " what God is", and what God would do in regards Gods nature of being. To say that God acts for our salvation, is not a contradiction to the truth; I don’t think that anything i have written contradicts that truth. You have assumed that i don’t know what i am talking about, without asking me.
God bless you.
P
PJM
Guest
=MindOverMatter;5010867]
Lets see what it is you are getting at.
True.
This is a question about Theodicy. Although the original question could be stretched to include Theodicy (the justification of God), I can only assumed that the original question was about defining what God is according to logic. Again what God is, can be affected by what you define God to be according to your religion. But i assumed we were talking about the Monotheistic God of Abraham. I guess assumptions can get you in to all sorts of bother.
Dear friend in Christ, I like you!
Your reply is articulate, charitableand wonderfully profound.
- Status