Is God good?

[littarsulum]

An atheist presented this question I wasn’t sure how to answer.

If God is good, why did he actively participate in human history committing the very evils he rebukes? It seems God contradicts Himself. My friend used the example,

Leviticus 20:13
“If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

I’m not sure what translation she used. But I agree that there are many of these seemingly contradictory participations of God in history. She also used the example of the great flood.

It would make a world of difference if you could reveal the good God behind these seemingly hateful crimes to me.

My regards,
Derek

 

[NewsTheMan]

God giveth, God taketh away.

Since God is the author of life, he is also able to take it away. Not one thing happens unless God has permitted it. So if God desires that someone should die, they die. Whether that be in their sleep or by being struck by lightning due to God’s wrath. God isn’t just a bigger version of us who also has to obey the rules. He is the rule.

Think of it in this way too - since there is an afterlife, it’s not like the ultimate punishment is being dealt on these people. Perhaps God is in fact being merciful and saying “I see a lot of sin in your life that if you continue will lead you to hell, so I’ll take your life now so that you can have the chance of Heaven”. Something like that.

Sorry, not very helpful, I’m not feeling too well today

 

[Rahn]

God giveth, God taketh away.

Since God is the author of life, he is also able to take it away. Not one thing happens unless God has permitted it. So if God desires that someone should die, they die. Whether that be in their sleep or by being struck by lightning due to God’s wrath. God isn’t just a bigger version of us who also has to obey the rules. He is the rule.

Think of it in this way too - since there is an afterlife, it’s not like the ultimate punishment is being dealt on these people. Perhaps God is in fact being merciful and saying “I see a lot of sin in your life that if you continue will lead you to hell, so I’ll take your life now so that you can have the chance of Heaven”. Something like that.

Sorry, not very helpful, I’m not feeling too well today

Following on from that… if God is the creator, then it follows that when he creates, it is because He earnestly wants whatever He created to exist. Why would God want something to exist? Two reasons: love and relationship.

We believe in the Trinity, and the Trinity is the definition of perfect love. God is love, and within the Trinity there is the lover, the loved and the observer of the love. So the only reason that God would create man in His image and likeness is to extend His love and to have a relationship with His creation. This is very evident in Genesis, in the creation of Adam, and then the creation of Eve from Adam as a companion.

We know the story from there: the fall: man’s acceptance of Satan’s agenda, and the inevitable consequences of that. Remember that God posted an angel to guard the Garden of Eden so that man could not return and eat of the tree of life, because He did not want man to live forever in his fallen state.

Leviticus 20:13 is the extension of the fall. God created a man, and then created a woman to be a companion to man. It is no accident that Moses included this in the account of the creation of Adam and Eve in Genesis:

Genesis 1:27-28: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.
Genesis 2:24: Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

You can’t read those verses and not have the concept that God desired a man and a woman to share His love and become one. God is making this clear in His law in Leviticus. He is a God of love, but He is the dispenser of justice as well.

The flood follows on from this. God saw sinfulness metastasise from the fall to the point where He could not bear it anymore. And so, He started over with Noah and his kin. It is His prerogative to do so, He is the creator.

One other thing to note: nothing takes God by surprise. And, everything He does, He does for the good of man. So, the law, and the flood, all led to the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, and the way to salvation for all.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

We cannot pass Judgment on God. God is God and we are paltry, limited creatures.

I too am shocked by the way God acts and some of the things He allows to happen,
but that doesn’t give me the right, at all, to Judge Him. HE is the Judge, not me.

It is also true that NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, happens
without God’s knowledge and permission (though not necessarily “approval”).
God let me believe, for nearly 20 years, that an old debt I once owed, was
all paid off. And then, during a psychotic break a few months ago, He chose to
allow me to discover that I still owed something on it, thus scaring me to death and placing me in an impossible situation. He also let me make deadly, fatal mistakes, for several months, that could destroy my life, that I had no intention of making nor any awareness of making, and that could destroy other people, too. Why would He do this to me, when I was a repentant, devout, praying Christian? I simply don’t understand this. Unless he speaks to me directly and explains what He was hoping to accomplish by bringing all this un-solvable calamity suddenly upon me while I was FAITHFUL and repentant, I can only conclude that He is furious at me for confessed and supposedly-forgiven sins of the Past. I can only conclude that, because that is the ONLY explanation that makes any rational sense, UNLESS he directly tells me otherwise.

But we still cannot Judge God. Period.
Praised be the LORD.

 

[Heuchler]

An atheist presented this question I wasn’t sure how to answer.

If God is good, why did he actively participate in human history committing the very evils he rebukes? It seems God contradicts Himself. My friend used the example,

Leviticus 20:13
“If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

I’m not sure what translation she used. But I agree that there are many of these seemingly contradictory participations of God in history. She also used the example of the great flood.

It would make a world of difference if you could reveal the good God behind these seemingly hateful crimes to me.

My regards,
Derek

You have to realize that the laws in Leviticus were not dictated down to Moses by God. They were essentially the laws of the time that Moses created as an expansion of the ten commandments. God did not command for these people to be killed. They were simply the laws of the time used to keep peace and create morally good people. And God responded to these terrible laws when Christ stood in front of Mary Magdalene who was to be stoned as said in the old law and told the crowd, “he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

The flood was probably just a parable or literary tale as a lot of things in Genesis are and was just an explanation for why a gigantic flood would have happened.

Really, this is just a cop-out by atheists who don’t want to believe and will use anything to remain atheists. God is good. They realize it. There hasn’t been a case brought forward that shows God killing unjustly or really killing that can’t be explained. And besides, the punishment for sin is death, God is being merciful in not killing us all on the spot.

 

[carn]

Since God is the author of life, he is also able to take it away.

Able and allowed to are two different things.

Not one thing happens unless God has permitted it. So if God desires that someone should die, they die.

Man is able to act against Gods will, otherwise there would be no need for salvation. As acting against Gods will can also include murdering someone, it would seem strange to say, that God has permitted that death, as it was against his rules.

God isn’t just a bigger version of us who also has to obey the rules. He is the rule.

Being the rules himself does not imply that he is not bound by the rules. More the opposite, if he is the rule, then he is bound by the rules because there is no difference between him and the rules.

Think of it in this way too - since there is an afterlife, it’s not like the ultimate punishment is being dealt on these people. Perhaps God is in fact being merciful and saying “I see a lot of sin in your life that if you continue will lead you to hell, so I’ll take your life now so that you can have the chance of Heaven”. Something like that.

With that you contradict your above statement, as you imply, that when braking the rules on first glance, thereis likely a hidden factor, which would mean that it was no rule braking at all. That need for a hidden factor arises only if God is bound by the rules and therefore for example is just as we not free to kill without cause, but can only kill if it is justified.
(Though what is justified might not be understandable for us.)

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Sorry, CARN,
your intentions are good, but you’re off here.
God is NOT bound by the rules he makes for us to obey.
Otherwise, he would also be BOUND, since these are RULES,
to NOT SHOW US ANY MERCY, which He shows all the time.

Love,
Jaypeeto4

 

[carn]

You have to realize that the laws in Leviticus were not dictated down to Moses by God. They were essentially the laws of the time that Moses created as an expansion of the ten commandments. God did not command for these people to be killed. They were simply the laws of the time used to keep peace and create morally good people. And God responded to these terrible laws when Christ stood in front of Mary Magdalene who was to be stoned as said in the old law and told the crowd, “he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

Really, this is just a cop-out by atheists who don’t want to believe and will use anything to remain atheists. God is good. They realize it. There hasn’t been a case brought forward that shows God killing unjustly or really killing that can’t be explained. And besides, the punishment for sin is death, God is being merciful in not killing us all on the spot.

To add on this, the next time an atheists just quotes about stoning (they like to do this, because thats the only way they can maintain their illusion, that all religions are similarly evil, as they know that some non-christian religion regularly punishes people that way), ask him to check, when the last time a court in a christian country did sentence someone in that way.
And when the last time a christian mob punished someone that way.

As far as i know the answers is, never. (I am not absolutey certain about the mob, but it would be rather difficult to find a christian volunteering to throw the first stone in the presence of a mob bound to act against perceived blasphemous acts.)

And that should demonstrate, that he simply cannot take quotes and draw conclussions. If that is what christians believed, then they would have applied that punishment in the last 2000 years.

(And i am always musing, why the story cound not have a second part, where a witch is dragged before Jesus and bound to a stake - a “he who is without sin lit the stake” would also have its effects.)

 

[NonServiam]

To add on this, the next time an atheists just quotes about stoning (they like to do this, because thats the only way they can maintain their illusion, that all religions are similarly evil, as they know that some non-christian religion regularly punishes people that way), ask him to check, when the last time a court in a christian country did sentence someone in that way.

Well, it’s irrelevant what people do nowadays (we can skip the barbaric things Christian countries did to prisoners up until not all that long ago in the grad scheme of things…). Really, it’s irrelevant to this argument whether any of these atrocious commands were ever actually carried out.

What matters in this discussion is that the holy book of your religion depicts your god as commanding atrocity – not only commanding unjust punishments and flooding the earth to kill every man, woman, and child, but ordering multiple genocides, endorsing slavery (and providing rules for beating your slaves), and commanding the Israelites to invade land, murder every man, and take the young women as their slaves.

It’s totally irrelevant whether or not this God eventually changed his mind or eventually said, “No, don’t throw stones at people” – the fact that he once commanded such atrocity is the topic under discussion.

Obviously, atheists don’t think that god exists for the simple reason that no one can demonstrate his existence through reason and evidence. However, separate from this fact is a different consideration: if someone could demonstrate that God exists, is this God a being worthy of worship?

[In other words, observing that God did awful things according to the BIble doesn’t, by itself, mean that there’s no god…that there is no god is a separate subject…what we’re talking about here is whether or not this being would deserve worship under the hypothetical scenario that he existed and that he is depicted accurately in the Bible]

I would answer that if the Bible is accurately reporting God’s nature, and if God’s nature includes having ordered the kinds of things listed above, then no, this being is not worthy of worship.

Now, you’re of course free to say that those “bad” parts of the Bible were just made up by humans and that God didn’t really command thos things, but for every Christian who takes that approach, there are quite a few who say exactly the opposite, so it’s kind of hard to get a straight answer. Further, claiming that these parts of the Bible are parts that were just made up and not valid at all creates many more problems: if one part of the Bible is just plain made up and just attributed to God, then how do you know that other parts of the Bible aren’t similarly made up? How do you go about distinguishing the real parts from the not real parts? What if you have it wrong and everything about the Bible except for the atrocity passages was just made up by people and attributed to God?

 

[Alindawyl]

It would make a world of difference if you could reveal the good God behind these seemingly hateful crimes to me.

The simple explanation is that God does not will us to suffer, but will permit us to suffer if He knows a greater good will come from permitting that suffering.

A parent takes a three year old child to the doctor to be vaccinated. The doctor sticks a needle in the child. The child screams.

From the perspective of the child, he is being subjected to pain for no discernible purpose. The big, mean person in the white coat is hurting him. Since the child is before the age of reason, he is unable to use reason to see the invisible, future good in this situation. The best he can do is accept on faith when mommy or daddy tells him “Trust me, this is for your own good”.

From the perspective of the parent, they do not wish to cause harm to their child. But the parent knows that the only way the child can be vaccinated is through a shot. So the parent permits the momentary unintended harm, without actively willing it, because of the greater future good of their child being vaccinated against a harmful disease.

If the parent could explain to the child why the pain is necessary, they would. But the child cannot understand yet. Likewise, if God could explain to us why the pain and suffering which He permits is necessary, He would. But we cannot understand yet. “I don’t see the good” doesn’t mean the good cannot possibly exist. It just means that if it does exist, it is not apparent to us from our perspective.

Remember in Matthew when the disciples asked Jesus who the greatest would be in the kingdom of heaven? Jesus showed them a child and said it was those who would humble themselves like that child. We must do the same by humbling ourselves and trusting in God as a small child trusts in his parents, instead of being prideful and saying " Because I personally do not see the good in this situation, there cannot possibly be any".

 

[Heuchler]

Well, it’s irrelevant what people do nowadays (we can skip the barbaric things Christian countries did to prisoners up until not all that long ago in the grad scheme of things…). Really, it’s irrelevant to this argument whether any of these atrocious commands were ever actually carried out.

What matters in this discussion is that the holy book of your religion depicts your god as commanding atrocity – not only commanding unjust punishments and flooding the earth to kill every man, woman, and child, but ordering multiple genocides, endorsing slavery (and providing rules for beating your slaves), and commanding the Israelites to invade land, murder every man, and take the young women as their slaves.

It’s totally irrelevant whether or not this God eventually changed his mind or eventually said, “No, don’t throw stones at people” – the fact that he once commanded such atrocity is the topic under discussion.

Obviously, atheists don’t think that god exists for the simple reason that no one can demonstrate his existence through reason and evidence. However, separate from this fact is a different consideration: if someone could demonstrate that God exists, is this God a being worthy of worship?

[In other words, observing that God did awful things according to the BIble doesn’t, by itself, mean that there’s no god…that there is no god is a separate subject…what we’re talking about here is whether or not this being would deserve worship under the hypothetical scenario that he existed and that he is depicted accurately in the Bible]

I would answer that if the Bible is accurately reporting God’s nature, and if God’s nature includes having ordered the kinds of things listed above, then no, this being is not worthy of worship.

Now, you’re of course free to say that those “bad” parts of the Bible were just made up by humans and that God didn’t really command thos things, but for every Christian who takes that approach, there are quite a few who say exactly the opposite, so it’s kind of hard to get a straight answer. Further, claiming that these parts of the Bible are parts that were just made up and not valid at all creates many more problems: if one part of the Bible is just plain made up and just attributed to God, then how do you know that other parts of the Bible aren’t similarly made up? How do you go about distinguishing the real parts from the not real parts? What if you have it wrong and everything about the Bible except for the atrocity passages was just made up by people and attributed to God?

First, I’d like to say I like your name mr. unsaved . I’d also like to point you to my first post in this thread as a response to what you have said.

You also have to realize that the majority of the old testement is used as a history of the Jewish people. These were their laws. God did not command them all specifically. They are all technically in line with God but we are to be more merciful in our dealings. And as I said earlier, we all deserve death for our sins, we are lucky to be faced with this type of mercy.

 

[NonServiam]

First, I’d like to say I like your name mr. unsaved .

Cheers.

I’d also like to point you to my first post in this thread as a response to what you have said.

And as a response to your first post, I’d like to point you to the seventh paragraph of my post, which I’ll reproduce below:

“Now, you’re of course free to say that those “bad” parts of the Bible were just made up by humans and that God didn’t really command thos things, but for every Christian who takes that approach, there are quite a few who say exactly the opposite, so it’s kind of hard to get a straight answer. Further, claiming that these parts of the Bible are parts that were just made up and not valid at all creates many more problems: if one part of the Bible is just plain made up and just attributed to God, then how do you know that other parts of the Bible aren’t similarly made up? How do you go about distinguishing the real parts from the not real parts? What if you have it wrong and everything about the Bible except for the atrocity passages was just made up by people and attributed to God?”

There are even more problems that are raised by the rest of your post. You state that the laws practiced by the Jews weren’t commanded by God but “are all technically in line with God.” Sure, if you believe that God had a means of communicating with the Jews – which most Christians do believe – then you have to believe that at least God permitted the Jews to write down these laws with atrocious penalties and at least write down these acts of genocide (assuming that they didn’t happen in some form or another, which is quite possible).

Obviously, if God had a big enough problem with these laws or these acts, he could have – and would have – done something about it. He evidently didn’t have a problem with them. Certainly, if he didn’t endorse these kinds of values, he had the power to keep such things out of his official Holy Book, no? The fact that they are in the Holy Book as laws practiced by God’s chosen people and at least tacitly permitted by him – if not outright commanded by him, as the Holy Book itself says – very strongly suggests that these are values that this being, at least at one time, favored.

Like I said, I’m an atheist, and I don’t think that there is a god. However, if we are talking about the hypothetical scenario under which this god does exist, then I think we would have to evaluate whether this being is worthy of worship. If the Bible accurately reflects this god’s personality, then I would have to say that the answer is no.

Now, the only way out of this for a believer is to argue that the Bible doesn’t accurately reflect god’s personality, which is the approach you’re taking. But unless you can provide a consistent and verifiable means of distinguishing the true parts from the false parts, you’re just picking and choosing the parts you like and believing that they are the parts that accurately reflect God’s character.

 

[Heuchler]

Well I believe that God allowed these because they were used to scare people away from sin. The greater good may have been that more people were kept from those evils out of fear. While I know that is not the best of arguments, it may have been better than leaving it at the ten commandments. As we see in Exodus, the Jewish people were prone to falling away from God.

Another point, is that we deserve death. Bringing sin and evil into the world is a terrible thing that deserves death. We all deserve to die and go to Hell. It is out of pure mercy and love that God allows us to continue to live. So, when we sin, it would be fine for us to remove the sinner from the world. However, our God has chosen to be kind and merciful and if we want to become one with him and live forever, we are to immitate him. So, the Jewish people were preserving good and removing sin through these harsh laws. While they do not appeal to mercy, they are just and they help keep the people in line.

 

[promethius]

Is God good?

Shockingly, I’m going to answer this question with a surprising “no”, if we mean it in the same sense of asking if a person is good.

God is the author of moral law. What this means is that God is not subserviant to some higher moral law, which precedes His authority and therefore can be used to judge whether or not He is good. Murder is not wrong as a preeminent law that supercedes God. Murder is wrong because GOD says it is. The very act of God saying something is wrong is what writes the moral law into being.

So since the moral law, along with the natural law, is the servant of God, how can such a law be used to judge whether or not God is “good”? It can’t… and we have no right to “judge” God anyway.

An atheist presented this question I wasn’t sure how to answer.

If God is good, why did he actively participate in human history committing the very evils he rebukes? It seems God contradicts Himself. My friend used the example,

Leviticus 20:13
“If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

I’m not sure what translation she used. But I agree that there are many of these seemingly contradictory participations of God in history. She also used the example of the great flood.

It would make a world of difference if you could reveal the good God behind these seemingly hateful crimes to me.

My regards,
Derek

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let’s look at a metaphor:

A watchmaker in town decides that he’s going to loan out his wares to every person in town. He lends each person a watch. The person has a right to wear the watch, but the watch BELONGS to the watchmaker.

One day the watchmaker walks up to five people in town, takes back his watches, and smashes them to bits.

Would we put the watchmaker on trial for smashing his own property? Would we call him evil for destroying his own watches? Absolutely not! They’re HIS watches. He ultimately gets to decide what he does with them.

So why, then, do the atheists get all huffy and want to put God on trial when He takes back the lives that He so generously gave? Do they know that God can’t unjustly take a life since He owns all life (just as the watchmaker owns all the loaned watches)?

And they’re asking the wrong question anyway: instead of asking why is God so evil in taking these lives (or ordering that they be taken), they should be asking why God was so kind as to give whole races of undeserving people the chance to live and be saved at all… after all, God was never OBLIGATED to give them life in the first place.

 

[TimothyH]

You have to realize that the laws in Leviticus were not dictated down to Moses by God. They were essentially the laws of the time that Moses created as an expansion of the ten commandments. God did not command for these people to be killed. They were simply the laws of the time used to keep peace and create morally good people. And God responded to these terrible laws when Christ stood in front of Mary Magdalene who was to be stoned as said in the old law and told the crowd, “he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

Are you sure?

*The LORD called Moses, and spoke to him from the tent of meeting: Speak to the Israelites and tell them: (Leviticus 1:1-2)

The LORD said to Moses: Tell the Israelites: (Leviticus 4:1-2)

The LORD said to Moses: (Leviticus 5:14)

The LORD said to Moses (Leviticus 5:20)

The LORD said to Moses (Leviticus 6:1)*

etc., x5

*The LORD said to Aaron: (Leviticus 10:8)

The LORD said to Moses and Aaron: Speak to the Israelites and tell them: (Leviticus 11:1-2)*

…and so forth. It seems pretty clear to me that these were laws given to Moses (and Aaron) personally by God. St. Paul, himself a Pharisee and student of the law, tells the Jews in Rome, “So then the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.” (cf Romans 7:12).

-Tim-

 

[Heuchler]

littarsulum;8441000:

Is God good?{/quote]

Shockingly, I’m going to answer this question with a surprising “no”, if we mean it in the same sense of asking if a person is good.

God is the author of moral law. What this means is that God is not subserviant to some higher moral law, which precedes His authority and therefore can be used to judge whether or not He is good. Murder is not wrong as a preeminent law that supercedes God. Murder is wrong because GOD says it is. The very act of God saying something is wrong is what writes the moral law into being.

So since the moral law, along with the natural law, is the servant of God, how can such a law be used to judge whether or not God is “good”? It can’t… and we have no right to “judge” God anyway.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let’s look at a metaphor:

A watchmaker in town decides that he’s going to loan out his wares to every person in town. He lends each person a watch. The person has a right to wear the watch, but the watch BELONGS to the watchmaker.

One day the watchmaker walks up to five people in town, takes back his watches, and smashes them to bits.

Would we put the watchmaker on trial for smashing his own property? Would we call him evil for destroying his own watches? Absolutely not! They’re HIS watches. He ultimately gets to decide what he does with them.

So why, then, do the atheists get all huffy and want to put God on trial when He takes back the lives that He so generously gave? Do they know that God can’t unjustly take a life since He owns all life (just as the watchmaker owns all the loaned watches)?

And they’re asking the wrong question anyway: instead of asking why is God so evil in taking these lives (or ordering that they be taken), they should be asking why God was so kind as to give whole races of undeserving people the chance to live and be saved at all… after all, God was never OBLIGATED to give them life in the first place.

I’d argue against this. Christ told us to “be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” and Paul tells us to be immitators of Christ. We aren’t told to be perfect because your heavenly Father is perfect or to immitate what Christ preached. God is good, that is why we are to be good. The moral laws aren’t something God decided on, they are the way He acts. God gave us these laws for a reason. If it’s not because they are the things He represents or likes, then how can we abide with him in Heaven. The laws would be different there and we would be alien there. (This could though be a misunderstanding of the point you are trying to make and if it is then I am truly sorry)

 

[Heuchler]

Are you sure?

The LORD called Moses, and spoke to him from the tent of meeting: Speak to the Israelites and tell them: (Leviticus 1:1-2)

The LORD said to Moses: Tell the Israelites: (Leviticus 4:1-2)

The LORD said to Moses: (Leviticus 5:14)

The LORD said to Moses (Leviticus 5:20)

The LORD said to Moses (Leviticus 6:1)

etc., x5

The LORD said to Aaron: (Leviticus 10:8)

The LORD said to Moses and Aaron: Speak to the Israelites and tell them: (Leviticus 11:1-2)

…and so forth. It seems pretty clear to me that these were laws given to Moses (and Aaron) personally by God.

-Tim-

Could you give an example of where God gave a law that stated kill them if they do this or that. I understand now that there are many of these laws that came from God, but I believe the laws in question were not spoken down from God. However, I may be wrong and it would be good if you could find it.

 

[promethius]

promethius;8442905:

I’d argue against this. Christ told us to “be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” and Paul tells us to be immitators of Christ. We aren’t told to be perfect because your heavenly Father is perfect or to immitate what Christ preached. God is good, that is why we are to be good. The moral laws aren’t something God decided on, they are the way He acts. God gave us these laws for a reason. If it’s not because they are the things He represents or likes, then how can we abide with him in Heaven. The laws would be different there and we would be alien there. (This could though be a misunderstanding of the point you are trying to make and if it is then I am truly sorry)

I think it is a misunderstanding. God IS good, that much is for certain… but God is good as a fundamental aspect of His being… and the moral law is good relative to that because it comes from the being of God, which is utterly good.

But that’s not what an atheist means when they ask “is God good?” They mean it in the sense that we ask about a person whether or not they are good. IE, was Hitler good? Was Ghandi good? Was Pope John Paul II good?

The difference is this: it’s a judgement of scale in that case… humans are judged “good” in the degree to which they conform to the superior moral law (meaning that God’s moral law is greater than us, hence we may be judged by it). But there is nothing greater than God, and the moral law itself is God’s servant… so God is not good RELATIVE to His aquiescense to something, but because GOODNESS is a fundamental part of God.

That’s why it’s important to clarify what we’re discussing when we ask “is God good?” Because the answer (yes or no) will depend ultimately on whether or not we’re asking as though God is a human being or not… and if we’re asking the same way we would as though God is a human being, then the moral law is not capable of judging God.

 

[Heuchler]

Heuchler;8442928:

I think it is a misunderstanding. God IS good, that much is for certain… but God is good as a fundamental aspect of His being… and the moral law is good relative to that because it comes from the being of God, which is utterly good.

But that’s not what an atheist means when they ask “is God good?” They mean it in the sense that we ask about a person whether or not they are good. IE, was Hitler good? Was Ghandi good? Was Pope John Paul II good?

The difference is this: it’s a judgement of scale in that case… humans are judged “good” in the degree to which they conform to the superior moral law (meaning that God’s moral law is greater than us, hence we may be judged by it). But there is nothing greater than God, and the moral law itself is God’s servant… so God is not good RELATIVE to His aquiescense to something, but because GOODNESS is a fundamental part of God

Ok, I wasn’t sure if that was the point you were trying to make. I really think this stems from the misconception that we deserve to live and that we should not die for our sins. Logically, sin fundamentally goes against God. Since we are sustained by God and owe him everything, our rebellion against him should result in our death. We are very lucky that He is merciful and has decided that we are worth it. Blessed be the Lord for enduring all our sins against Him.

 

[RedDuke50]

I think that God had the flood happen because the people had become evil and so He flooded them to cleanse the Earth. That is just what I think. I don’t believe we are able to place judgment on Him because that would say that we are above Him and that is false. Just know that everything that God does is the best possible thing to do. Our choices would be much less wise than His. †