is god moral ?

[jochoa]

so my point is that in my view of what is moral , the god in the bible does not fulfill the moral standarts expected from an all powerfull all knowing and loving god.

ok , so humans are often described as gods children , but what father would allow his children to be tortured (i am not saying he tortures , simply that he allows for it to happen) for the “crime” of not loving him back (back is an important point since he suposedly loves us all , allowing for someone to be tortured whom you dont like is allready a evile thing… but someone you love?)? what kind of moral and loving god is that ?

Hello and excellent questions my friend. In order to understand how God is eternally the pinnacle of Morality and most especially Love, you must gain a better understanding of God. God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each have a different perspective to consider. In reference to your post, you are considering the perspective of the Holy Spirit. To understand the Holy Spirit, consider the following:
The Spirit of God can be defined as Always being and spreading the means to freely be perfectly patient, kind, and motivated with all the body, thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self for the unbreakable peace and limitless happiness of every relationship and individual of society.

Recognize that every person tries developing these attributes. These efforts and development reveal the Spirit of God within every person. Since we are naturally ignorant, we must grow towards oneness with the Spirit of God. The instance we become completely and eternally one with the Spirit of God, though we are not the Spirit of God, we are the Holy (United) Spirit of God.

Since God, the Son, wants people who can freely, without fear, choose to want to be a member of His Kingdom by desiring and seeking unity in His Spirit in order to experience limitless happiness with unbreakable peace, God, the Father, had to think of what all is required in order to create this society.

Since humans are collectively the Holy Spirit, much of the Bible is the things we did, do, and will do in the process of growing towards oneness in the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, the anger of God is referring to us being impatient and mean in efforts to generate a greater peace, happiness, and longevity in society. Given the level of ignorance at the time of our anger, we are justified and forgivable because we made the best possible decision we could think of at the time.

Thank you very much for the excellent food for thought! I look forward to further discussion.

Thoughts?

 

[jochoa]

ok lets assume for a second that hell is necesary for free will , why would it have to be permanent ?

Free will requires ignorance, not knowing everything. From the nature of not knowing everything, mistakes will be made. By our nature, we desire freedom from disturbance (Peace). Without great growth in the Holy Spirit, mistakes tend to disturb us. We typically lose patience thereby causing disturbance and taking us out of peace, or placing us in Hell. Since we will continue to produce ignorant offspring, which will make mistakes, and generate disturbance, Hell will always exist on earth. However in God’s Heavenly Kingdom, Hell does not exist because there is an everlasting unbreakable peace.

Another great question! I look forward to further discussion!

Thoughts?

 

[neophyte]

insanity:

…ok , so humans are often described as gods children , but what father would allow his children to be tortured (i am not saying he tortures , simply that he allows for it to happen) for the “crime” of not loving him back (back is an important point since he suposedly loves us all , allowing for someone to be tortured whom you dont like is allready a evile thing… but someone you love?)? what kind of moral and loving god is that ?..

You’re not a parent, are you.

When my adolescent children freely choose to do things that will harm themselves badly, am I supposed to hog-tie them and lock them in the basement? Would it be good and wise parenting to follow them around all day, making sure they didn’t eat garbage and force-feeding them the healthy foods they refuse to eat willingly? Should I actually cut out their vocal cords to prevent them from using speech which harms themselves and the people around them?

When you were a teenager, would that have worked? Do you really think that it would have made you more desire to have a relationship with your parents if they had done to you what you think God should do to all of us?

If God is Love (which he is),
and if Love desires to affirm and bring to perfection the nature of the other (which it does),
and if the other is a free moral agent capable of choosing to reject or adhere to the one who is Love (which we are),
then God will so respect our free will that he will allow us to reject him.

And in rejecting He who is the source of all good, we necessarily cut ourselves off from all good, and destroy ourselves.

What you sem to be proposing is fallacious, because it would have Man redefined as beings without free will.

 

[neophyte]

…Since humans are collectively the Holy Spirit, much of the Bible is the things we did, do, and will do in the process of growing towards oneness in the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, the anger of God is referring to us being impatient and mean in efforts to generate a greater peace, happiness, and longevity in society. Given the level of ignorance at the time of our anger, we are justified and forgivable because we made the best possible decision we could think of at the time…

…Free will requires ignorance, not knowing everything. …

Thoughts?

My thought is that this contains much that is not compatible with legitimate Catholic theology.

 

[jochoa]

now at this point i also want to argue that god didnt realy give free will.

imagine this , you have to chose between A and B , since god is all knowing he knows what your choice will be ( lets say B ) … now you cant choose A because an all knowing being allready knows you will chose B . since the being is ALL knowing the probability you will chose B is 100% and A 0% , therefore its no longer a choice , therefore no free will.

if you say that god cannot predict every choice you make with 100% certainty and you therefore have free will you have to accept that god is NOT all knowing…

Both of your analysis are applicable to God from certain perspectives. The only real method to learn the perspective which validates our free will, even though God knows what we will do, is to try to master being unconditionally patient and kind for the peace and happiness of your relationships and self, then try to spread the means to freely be patient and kind for the limitless happiness with unbreakable peace for your relationships and self.

What you will learn is that God, the Father, first thought of what all would happen and needed to happen to allow and guide free-willed people to love as He loves. Then He did His part to make that happen, and everything occurs according to what He thought would happen. Though everything occurs according to what He initially thought, we genuinely have free will in His thoughts. Therefore, by the time these things physically happen, God, the Father, knows everything.

Regarding God is not all knowing:
God wants to experience a limitless happiness without anyone ever losing peace. In order to achieve this, He cannot know everything because the act of knowing what will happen limits happiness. This is why God, the Son, sacrificed knowing everything. This is why He gave up His Being for us.

Thoughts?

 

[jochoa]

My thought is that this contains much that is not compatible with legitimate Catholic theology.

Thank you very much for considering my perspective my friend! Please know that I share these concepts in hopes of harsh criticism regarding alignment/misalignment with Catholicism for it is the Fullness of Truth, and I will ensure my understandings are within the Teachings.

What stands out to you as out-of-alignment?

 

[neophyte]

Thank you very much for considering my perspective my friend! Please know that I share these concepts in hopes of harsh criticism regarding alignment/misalignment with Catholicism for it is the Fullness of Truth, and I will ensure my understandings are within the Teachings.

What stands out to you as out-of-alignment?

Humans are NOT collectively the Holy Spirit,
the anger of God is NOT referring to us being impatient and mean in efforts to generate a greater peace, happiness, and longevity in society,
and free will does NOT imply ignorance.

There are other things you’ve posted as well, but those were the specific ones to which I was referring in that post.

You need to carefully study the Catechism under the guidance of a competent teacher. I also suggest St. Thomas Acquinas.

 

[snarflemike]

hi
sry about the other thread and that i did not read the stickys… that happens when you register on a forum and want to star a interesting debat whilst being extremly tired
ok so now refreshed with 2 cups strong coffe lets start again.

so my point is that in my view of what is moral , the god in the bible does not fulfill the moral standarts expected from an all powerfull all knowing and loving god.

ok , so humans are often described as gods children , but what father would allow his children to be tortured (i am not saying he tortures , simply that he allows for it to happen) for the “crime” of not loving him back (back is an important point since he suposedly loves us all , allowing for someone to be tortured whom you dont like is allready a evile thing… but someone you love?)? what kind of moral and loving god is that ?

also a infinite punishment is not ok to be used to punish a crime which caused a finite amount of harm

ok lets begin ( ipod spellchecker is giving me a hard time :S )

A few questions:

When you say God is not moral, what standard of morality are you applying, and how do you know it is a universal standard? Nothing else can be answered before you have settled this issue.

As for infinite punishment, I’d say you’re using “infinite” in an incorrect fashion, but we understand what you mean. But why do you call it God’s punishment rather than the person’s choice? Further, if the two choices are eternity with God or eternity without God, what if eternity with God would be greater “punishment” for some individual than eternity with God? In that case, is God’s judgement not the “moral” judgement?

Finally, here’s an interesting thought experiment. If you were God, what would you have done differently, and why?

 

[grannymh]

Regarding God is not all knowing:
God wants to experience a limitless happiness without anyone ever losing peace. In order to achieve this, He cannot know everything because the act of knowing what will happen limits happiness. This is why God, the Son, sacrificed knowing everything. This is why He gave up His Being for us.

Thoughts?

My first thought is that God is being described as a human as in
“God wants to experience a limitless happiness without anyone ever losing peace.”
Emphasis mine.

It is important to distinguish a Pure Spirit without restrictions from a limited human person. It is also important to distinguish the Creator from the created.

 

[snarflemike]

BTW, insanity, I wanted to mention that most Catholics here have no problem discussing these things with a respectful atheist (too many resort to snark and sarcasm). I also wanted to mention that you will find many former atheists here, myself included. So don’t think we haven’t thought about, and finally answered, the things you are thinking about.

 

[grannymh]

Morality is basically a human description of human actions toward other humans. An universal standard for human morality is the fact that the human person is worthy of profound respect.

In my humble opinion, it is not possible for creatures to apply a human standard to their Creator – no matter how much they desire Divinity to act like humanity.

 

[jochoa]

Humans are NOT collectively the Holy Spirit,

Thank you very much, my friend, for responding. Please consider the following:
The Holy Spirit is definitely Jesus Christ, however, given the following:
Catholicism knows: 460 …"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”
We must find a reasonable perspective/concept which validates that “we are God” and “men might become gods.” or else Catholicism is wrong.

the anger of God is NOT referring to us being impatient and mean in efforts to generate a greater peace, happiness, and longevity in society,

Please consider the following concept which generates a necessity to find a perspective which indicates the anger of God referring to a different person of the Holy Trinity. If God defined Love as patient and kind, and expects us to master Love, then He must be perfect at it. Anger is not of Love, therefore, there must be a perspective which exists which validates that this anger does not refer to God, the Father.

and free will does NOT imply ignorance.

First, please know that I am not stating that we do not have free will because God, the Father, knows what we will do. We have free will because when He thought of what we would do in soul only, He did not know what we would do. It was during this thinking/planning that He was able to will freely throughout time because it all existed in His thoughts only. When He made the plan happen, we genuinely have free will because we do not know what we will choose to do.

Also, please consider the following concept: In order to will freely, one cannot know what s/he will choose. If s/he knows what will be done and has set in stone what will happen, then the will is not free to change.

There are other things you’ve posted as well, but those were the specific ones to which I was referring in that post.

Please let me know if my reasoning provides validation to my interpretation, as well as, let me know any other critiques.

You need to carefully study the Catechism under the guidance of a competent teacher. I also suggest St. Thomas Acquinas.

Thank you very much for the recommendation. I try my best to operate within their knowledge.

 

[jochoa]

My first thought is that God is being described as a human as in
“God wants to experience a limitless happiness without anyone ever losing peace.”
Emphasis mine.

It is important to distinguish a Pure Spirit without restrictions from a limited human person. It is also important to distinguish the Creator from the created.

Thank you very much grannymh for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate you taking the time.

First, I have noticed on some posts you state, “Emphasis mine.” Would you please tell me what this means?

Please consider the following equivalences:
Jesus is fully God, not partially. Jesus is fully human. Therefore God is human.
And referring to Catechism #460: “…we might become God…might make men gods.” There must exist a perspective which validates that humans will be God and some might become gods. Which indicates that God has or will have human characteristics.

Regarding distinction between Creator and created or God and man, and spirit versus body.
I like to use the following concept: The Creator is a single living cell which has the exact same image of the Eucharist. The Creator made man occurred by the Creator duplicating His body, thereby begetting His only Son, who has the exact body as the Father. It is this duplicated cell which comes down from Heaven into the womb of the Most Holy Virgin and is made Man by the will of God.

I have come to define spirit as image, knowledge, and past-actions. Therefore, a spirit can have unlimited occurrences in any given instance.
A soul on the other hand only exists in the mind of the Creator. Because a soul is similar to spirit in that it is thought of, however when the Creator thinks of us, He has the ability to give our “spirits” free will. On the other hand, when we think of other people, we do not have the ability to give spirits free will.
Body is physical, and there is only one occurrence of the body in any given instance.

Thank you very much for your time and consideration, my friend! I look forward to further discussion.

Thoughts?

 

[grannymh]

Thank you very much, my friend, for responding. Please consider the following:
The Holy Spirit is definitely Jesus Christ, however, given the following:
Catholicism knows: 460 …"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”
We must find a reasonable perspective/concept which validates that “we are God” and “men might become gods.” or else Catholicism is wrong.

Please consider the following concept which generates a necessity to find a perspective which indicates the anger of God referring to a different person of the Holy Trinity. If God defined Love as patient and kind, and expects us to master Love, then He must be perfect at it. Anger is not of Love, therefore, there must be a perspective which exists which validates that this anger does not refer to God, the Father.

First, please know that I am not stating that we do not have free will because God, the Father, knows what we will do. We have free will because when He thought of what we would do in soul only, He did not know what we would do. It was during this thinking/planning that He was able to will freely throughout time because it all existed in His thoughts only. When He made the plan happen, we genuinely have free will because we do not know what we will choose to do.

Also, please consider the following concept: In order to will freely, one cannot know what s/he will choose. If s/he knows what will be done and has set in stone what will happen, then the will is not free to change.

Please let me know if my reasoning provides validation to my interpretation, as well as, let me know any other critiques.

Thank you very much for the recommendation. I try my best to operate within their knowledge.

Regarding CCC 460, One needs to study the whole context plus study its cross references in the margin CCC 1265, 1391, 1988, and CCC 355 - 384.

 

[grannymh]

Thank you very much grannymh for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate you taking the time.

First, I have noticed on some posts you state, “Emphasis mine.” Would you please tell me what this means?

It indicates that what is in bold is what I did and not the author of the quote.

 

[LilyM]

Jochoa, the Holy Spirit is most definitely NOT Jesus Christ. Just before His ascension to heaven, Jesus tells the apostles that He needs to ascend to heaven so that they can receive the Spirit. He goes so far as to say that IF He does not then they cannot receive the Spirit. He clearly isn’t saying that He is going in order to come back in another form or anything.

 

[StrawberryJam]

hi
sry about the other thread and that i did not read the stickys… that happens when you register on a forum and want to star a interesting debat whilst being extremly tired
ok so now refreshed with 2 cups strong coffe lets start again.

so my point is that in my view of what is moral , the god in the bible does not fulfill the moral standarts expected from an all powerfull all knowing and loving god.

ok , so humans are often described as gods children , but what father would allow his children to be tortured (i am not saying he tortures , simply that he allows for it to happen) for the “crime” of not loving him back (back is an important point since he suposedly loves us all , allowing for someone to be tortured whom you dont like is allready a evile thing… but someone you love?)? what kind of moral and loving god is that ?

also a infinite punishment is not ok to be used to punish a crime which caused a finite amount of harm

ok lets begin ( ipod spellchecker is giving me a hard time :S )

I have to question why you would post something like this on a Catholic Forum.
I have to ask you one thing. Have you browsed enough of the forum to understand that capital letters actually mean something here?

You have an IPod. Money can’t buy some things clearly.

If your question is about the Christian God and the morality or lack of, remember he gave everything over to his Church.

His Church is always refered to as a she.

This is my view on the Church today, this very second.

youtube.com/watch?v=QojlKXob73o

 

[EricFilmer]

His Church is always refered to as a she.

This is my view on the Church today, this very second.

youtube.com/watch?v=QojlKXob73o

That’s a little depressing, Strawberry Jam. Fortunately for me, the following song represents my own experience of the Church today:

There She Goes

 

[StrawberryJam]

That’s a little depressing, Strawberry Jam. Fortunately for me, the following song represents my own experience of the Church today:

There She Goes

I wish you a very happy Easter, and do understand the deep differences yet respect yours fully. I only wish I could be a Catholic. I can do a very good job defending her. I could even do it if it did not require me to do things I just can not do. Literal Adam and Eve seals it.

In the meantime, consider me a friend from afar.

 

[EricFilmer]

I wish you a very happy Easter…

In the meantime, consider me a friend from afar.

Thanks SJ, and likewise consider me a friend to you as well.