is god moral ?

[meltzerboy]

hi
sry about the other thread and that i did not read the stickys… that happens when you register on a forum and want to star a interesting debat whilst being extremly tired
ok so now refreshed with 2 cups strong coffe lets start again.

so my point is that in my view of what is moral , the god in the bible does not fulfill the moral standarts expected from an all powerfull all knowing and loving god.

ok , so humans are often described as gods children , but what father would allow his children to be tortured (i am not saying he tortures , simply that he allows for it to happen) for the “crime” of not loving him back (back is an important point since he suposedly loves us all , allowing for someone to be tortured whom you dont like is allready a evile thing… but someone you love?)? what kind of moral and loving god is that ?

also a infinite punishment is not ok to be used to punish a crime which caused a finite amount of harm

ok lets begin ( ipod spellchecker is giving me a hard time :S )

Judaism, as a whole, does not believe in an eternal conscious torture of evil people in hell, but rather, according to some, an annihilation of their soul. According to most Jewish teaching, hell is probably more of a separation from G-d than a physical torment. Most of us, however, will enter Purgatory and be cleansed there for no more than 11 months (or less than one year), except on the Sabbath. I must qualify all of this by saying that the afterlife is not a principal concern in Judaism, and there is not so much mention of it in the Hebrew Bible. The World to Come is open to all who lead a moral life, both Jew and non-Jew, including atheists. G-d is both moral Himself and established the rules of morality for our benefit.

 

[DavidFilmer]

ok so now refreshed with 2 cups strong coffe lets start again.

This is a better start

but what father would allow his children to be tortured

Oh, c’mon! This happens all the time, in the real world, each and every day.

My youngest son (age 18) plans to join the United States Marines very soon - he just has some paperwork to complete. His goal is to be a Special Forces (in the Marines, Force Recon) Scout/Sniper. The duty assignment of a Force Recon Sniper will always be in a combat zone - there are no “peaceful” missions available for this particular skill set.

If a sniper is captured, he will be tortured. My son does not need my blessing to pursue this occupation, but he has it anyway. As a father, I fear for his safety, but I also am proud of his dedication and courageous willingness to make this ultimate sacrifice.

Suppose my son were offered a combat mission which would ensure the salvation of all humanity, but would certainly result in his torture and death. If my son were willing to undertake this mission, I would be sad but proud.

If my son is willing to give his life to promote a greater good, am I immoral in supporting his decision?

I think I would be quite immoral and selfish to impede his decision. My human weakness would tempt me to dissuade my son, but God does not have such a weakness.

If I, as a human father - with all my human weakness - could send my beloved son off to be tortured and die for the salvation of the human race - could God not do the same?

 

[Qoeleth]

Of course, the Bible is a collection of different stories reflecting different conceptions and perceptions of God. Read it, let the stories wash over you, in the varying colour and splendour.

Hell is part of a myth, which, through images, communicates moral responsibility.

I suggest you dismiss the question of ‘truth’. Religion must be appreciated in the same way a movie or novel are. Enjoy it, and let it enrich you. Refuse to entertain or engage in the question of “truth” or “reality”. In the end, those things don’t matter much. Jesus dismissed them entirely, when He said “I am the Truth.” Let our truth be who we are, and nothing more.

 

[jochoa]

Regarding CCC 460, One needs to study the whole context plus study its cross references in the margin CCC 1265, 1391, 1988, and CCC 355 - 384.

Thank you very much for recommending further insight. I really enjoyed the readings, and I now have a greater understanding of a perspective which validates why God is Pure Spirit. Yet I still do not see how my understandings are out of alignment. Another method of validating that God had desires is given the first Catechism. Since God has a plan of sheer goodness, there must a reasoning for planning and especially making it for goodness sake. The reasoning for planning is Universal to All, it is law: Planning is for the purpose of fulfilling a desire.

It indicates that what is in bold is what I did and not the author of the quote.

Thank you very much for clarifying that for me.

 

[jochoa]

Jochoa, the Holy Spirit is most definitely NOT Jesus Christ. Just before His ascension to heaven, Jesus tells the apostles that He needs to ascend to heaven so that they can receive the Spirit. He goes so far as to say that IF He does not then they cannot receive the Spirit. He clearly isn’t saying that He is going in order to come back in another form or anything.

Please consider the following concepts: Catholicism knows there is only One God, as well as there are three distinct persons co-existing in God.
Catholicism also knows Jesus Christ is Fully God, not partially. Catholicism also knows “In the NAME (not names) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
Therefore, there must exist perspectives which validate that Jesus in Himself is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as well as a perspective which validates that there are three co-existing persons. Since there are three co-existing persons, Jesus in Himself alone, cannot physically be all three.

Thoughts?

 

[grannymh]

Thank you very much for recommending further insight. I really enjoyed the readings, and I now have a greater understanding of a perspective which validates why God is Pure Spirit. Yet I still do not see how my understandings are out of alignment. Another method of validating that God had desires is given the first Catechism. Since God has a plan of sheer goodness, there must a reasoning for planning and especially making it for goodness sake. The reasoning for planning is Universal to All, it is law: Planning is for the purpose of fulfilling a desire.

Thank you very much for clarifying that for me.

Your original comment – “God wants to experience a limitless happiness without anyone ever losing peace.” keeps me thinking about God.

God, as a Pure Spirit, is already limitless. He does not need to want an “experience.”

My nitty-gritty personality remembers some of the problems from other threads which occur when we think of God wanting something to happen in the same manner as we want to experience it. God wants us to share in His Divine goodness which is different from our desire to have God assume our personal reasoning about human happiness.
God wants us, His creatures, (actually the reason for us to have a spiritual soul) to share in His life without the limits of our earthly material anatomy. We are the ones who want to experience a limitless happiness.

Yes, God loves us, John 3:16, and that is because He is already ultimate love and thus He can share Himself with us because of our spiritual soul. He shares Himself on His terms, (not our terms) since He is our Creator.

 

[grannymh]

May all of you experience the joy and peace of Easter,

With love,
granny

Then the angel said to the women in reply, "Do not be afraid! I know that you are seeking Jesus the crucified. He is not here, for He has been raised just as He said.”
Matthew, Chapter 28

 

[fhansen]

We are the ones who want to experience a limitless happiness.

Yes, and the Catechism teaches that God made us that way, with that desire. Happy Easter!

 

[PRmerger]

ok , so humans are often described as gods children , but what father would allow his children to be tortured (i am not saying he tortures , simply that he allows for it to happen)

Would I be correct in assuming from this comment, insanity, that you are not a parent yet?

For anyone who is a parent knows that often parents must allow their children to be tortured. Through a child’s eyes any father who allows a child to be taken to a place of torture (aka the pediatrician’s office) to be stuck with sometimes up to 5 needles (aka immunizations) is a supremely sadistic being.

Any daughter would view a father holding her down, whilst she is kicking, screaming and begging to be let go, so nurses can insert an IV into her vein as a torturer, no?

But is this father really an immoral father to allow his children to undergo such torture?

 

[neophyte]

Of course, the Bible is a collection of different stories reflecting different conceptions and perceptions of God. Read it, let the stories wash over you, in the varying colour and splendour.

Hell is part of a myth, which, through images, communicates moral responsibility.

I suggest you dismiss the question of ‘truth’. Religion must be appreciated in the same way a movie or novel are. Enjoy it, and let it enrich you. Refuse to entertain or engage in the question of “truth” or “reality”. In the end, those things don’t matter much. Jesus dismissed them entirely, when He said “I am the Truth.” Let our truth be who we are, and nothing more.

This is absolutely incompatible with legitimate Catholic teaching.

 

[jochoa]

Your original comment – “God wants to experience a limitless happiness without anyone ever losing peace.” keeps me thinking about God.

God, as a Pure Spirit, is already limitless. He does not need to want an “experience.”

My nitty-gritty personality remembers some of the problems from other threads which occur when we think of God wanting something to happen in the same manner as we want to experience it. God wants us to share in His Divine goodness which is different from our desire to have God assume our personal reasoning about human happiness.
God wants us, His creatures, (actually the reason for us to have a spiritual soul) to share in His life without the limits of our earthly material anatomy. We are the ones who want to experience a limitless happiness.

You are correct, my friend, and thank you once again for considering the concepts. I encourage you to ponder a few ideas to recognize that though you are correct, there may exist extended, and still aligned, perspectives which can validate that God is more than just Pure Spirit.

Regarding God is Pure Spirit
From our perspective, God is pure image, knowledge, and past-actions (Pure Spirit). Everything we physically, including spiritually, experience has already spiritually occurred in the thought of God, the Father. His Spirit is limitless because it will be thought of forever by a number of humans only countable by God.

Regarding God as more than Pure Spirit
Here are two concepts to recognize that God somehow is a physical, thinking, feeling, willing person (please know that this is second to God existing as a bodiless entity)

1. Consider the following things Catholicism knows:
   Jesus Christ is Fully God.
   God is personal.
   Jesus has a body.
   Jesus is fully human, and humans want to experience a limitless happiness.
   God will judge the living and the dead.
   God is living.
2. Try considering the perspective of God. Since the future has yet to physically happen, given that He has to judge the living and the dead, as well as, He has to come again. There must exist progression inside of God’s plan/thoughts/will. And since Catholicism knows world without end, there must be something extended regarded God’s plan. What I am trying to simply say is that God, the Father, is right now thinking of all the happenings of life that will happen ages from now. In these thoughts, He is creating free-willed souls.

Regarding God’s Happiness
Though God, the Father’s, Spirit is Limitless, His happiness is not limitless. Consider the following reasoning: If you had to think of every detail of every thing created, before you created it, then interacting with it would not necessarily produce any gratification. Consider the following example:
God, the Father, wants to create music, but first He must think of all the attributes, qualities, and sciences of sound. After He has created all the properties of sound, He then must think of how to produce sound. So He thinks about the microscopic details of the instruments necessary to produce the perfect sounds. Then He must think of score for the musical masterpiece. By the time the musical creation is physically made, it is only an exact replica of what He thought, therefore the intense joy that we humans get to experience from listening to such brilliant work, is essentially just a perfectly content thought of God.

Yes, God loves us, John 3:16, and that is because He is already ultimate love and thus He can share Himself with us because of our spiritual soul. He shares Himself on His terms, (not our terms) since He is our Creator.

Definitely agreed, and please consider the following question: Though God shares Himself on His terms, can we grow to understand Him and His terms?

 

[bz5]

to the OP: a couple of things I’ve heard - because atheists certainly aren’t the only ones who ponder this question - is 1: We think of infinity as being an unimaginable thousands and thousands and millions of years, but heaven and hell are outside of time, and we can’t really imagine the reality of infinite time.
2. If you imagine what would happen if you and I had a small argument in the street, and I raised my hand to strike you, probably nothing would happen but you’d slap my hand away. But if I did the same to the President, several burly men would take me away to jail. God is infinitely above the President in dignity and merit.

As an aside, do you find it more comforting to believe there is only a possibility of justice in this world? It seems like that has a lot of potential for bitter, jealous feelings. I’m not saying that’s your attitude - I don’t know you, after all. I just see that potential in general.

 

[snarflemike]

Originally Posted by Qoeleth
Of course, the Bible is a collection of different stories reflecting different conceptions and perceptions of God. Read it, let the stories wash over you, in the varying colour and splendour.

Yes, that is certainly not the Catholic faith, handed down from the Apostles. The poster says he is Catholic. I wonder how he comes to believe what he professes.

 

[Qoeleth]

This is absolutely incompatible with legitimate Catholic teaching.

On the contrary, to dismiss the need to reduce the mysteries of religion to logical truths is precisely compatible with the Catholic faith. To subjugate the idea of “literal truth” to the idea of a “transcedent Truth” is perfectly compatible with Christianity. That is why we say, “The Mystery of Faith”, rather than “The Facts of Faith.”

 

[PRmerger]

On the contrary, to dismiss the need to reduce the mysteries of religion to logical truths is precisely compatible with the Catholic faith. To subjugate the idea of “literal truth” to the idea of a “transcedent Truth” is perfectly compatible with Christianity. That is why we say, “The Mystery of Faith”, rather than “The Facts of Faith.”

It is not the fact that you are proclaiming that there are Mysteries of the Faith to which we object.

Rather, it is to your claim that Catholics can assert that hell is a “part of a myth”, as you stated here, that we object.

Hell is part of a myth, which, through images, communicates moral responsibility.

 

[Qoeleth]

It is not the fact that you are proclaiming that there are Mysteries of the Faith to which we object.

Rather, it is to your claim that Catholics can assert that hell is a “part of a myth”, as you stated here, that we object.

Myth doesn’t mean “untrue”. The Church openly describes Genesis, for example, as a “myth.” What it means is that the truths conveyed are not to be confused with simple literal facts. Hell is a “true myth”.

I am pretty sure this is in line with the teachings of the Church.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Is a meter long?

 

[PRmerger]

Myth doesn’t mean “untrue”. The Church openly describes Genesis, for example, as a “myth.”

Yes, I understand that.

I am pretty sure this is in line with the teachings of the Church.

If you could offer us a Magisterial document where the Church describes hell as a myth that would be helpful.

 

[grannymh]

Definitely agreed, and please consider the following question: Though God shares Himself on His terms, can we grow to understand Him and His terms?

 

[grannymh]

On the contrary, to dismiss the need to reduce the mysteries of religion to logical truths is precisely compatible with the Catholic faith. To subjugate the idea of “literal truth” to the idea of a “transcedent Truth” is perfectly compatible with Christianity. That is why we say, “The Mystery of Faith”, rather than “The Facts of Faith.”

The mystery of faith does not exclude facts of faith. For the Jubilee Year 2000, I was one of the writers of inserts for our parish bulletin titled Facts of Faith. My favorite one was titled “Does Purgatory Have a Zip Code?” Purgatory and hell are facts of Catholicism. I cannot speak for other faiths.

Speaking of facts of faith, the next time you attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass on Sunday or Saturday evening, listen carefully to the Nicene Creed.