Is God Responsible For All Evil?

[Starwynd]

One of the things I was taught to believe while growing up is that Satan can not do anything without God’s permission. I’m not entirely sure what to believe on the matter.This is problematic for a couple of reasons.

One is if Satan cannot act without God’s permission, then would that not make God responsible for all evil?

Two is if Satan can act without God’s permission, then does that not mean God is not omnipotent?

 

[fhansen]

One of the things I was taught to believe while growing up is that Satan can not do anything without God’s permission. I’m not entirely sure what to believe on the matter.This is problematic for a couple of reasons.

One is if Satan cannot act without God’s permission, then would that not make God responsible for all evil?

Two is if Satan can act without God’s permission, then does that not mean God is not omnipotent?

Evil comes about when Gods’ created beings freely choose to disobey Him. This freedom which makes evil possible is a gift. God allows evil to exist for a time, for His own purposes, bringing good out of it.

God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to suffer no evil to exist. – Saint Augustine

I have a cousin who lives and used to teach HS in your town BTW.

 

[Cajetan]

God does not (cannot) cause evil, but He gives certain creatures of His – angels and human beings – the freedom to cause it.

 

[RyanL]

Growing up, did your parents do all your homework for you and take your tests for you?

No? Why not?

But if they didn’t do your homework for you but rather left you to mess it up on your own, aren’t they responsible for that ‘C’ you made in 7th grade math?

Same argument.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Huiou_Theou]

There is a fundamental limit to how much perfection any creature could have – if they were totally perfect – they would be God and not a creature.
So, in the sense that creation is not possible unless it is Less than God, I would agree God is responsible for evil in that he loved so much as to create us anyway.
The problem with “all” powerful, and such other words is that not all things are powers – it is not a power to annihilate one’s self, contradict one’s self, and so forth. God can do all that can be done is the best description of all powerful.

For example, God can not lie. It isn’t possible. Should he say “something fictional” it would come into being. God spoke and the earth was made into a form. For the same reason, I don’t think it possible for God to have a nightmare – therefore, he doesn’t “sleep”, and so forth.

Freedom is not an absolute, as a deacon whom I seldom agree with pointed out – a violin string is not free if it is too constrained, dampened, then it can’t play.
But if a violin string is totally free, then it is useless to for it is no longer the string of a violin – and without the tension there is no music. In a sense it is no longer free to make music because it has been loosed of the violin.

Gravity is a constraint, but it also allows us to walk, etc.

As to the devil, God does not allow him to destroy his creation totally – although the devil has managed to enter into communion with creation. All earthly creation fell when Adam accepted the devil into himself. Should God forget the devil, he would cease to exist – but he doesn’t – for the same reason he doesn’t forget us – everything he makes is less good than him, and it is the loss of good which is called evil – but whatever remains is still a lesser good. In God all things work together for good. Those who are truly good freely will to be constrained by God and therefore united to him. It is he who fills up our lacking – which is the definition of “evil”.

If you who are evil know how to give good things to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven…

 

[trichocereus]

It is true, what you are saying, that Satan cannot act without God’s permission. As a proof, we just need to open the Book of Job in the Old Testament. Satan can only move within the frame of its own nature and within the frame of nature in general (since he is described in many places as a ‘ruler of this world’). That’s why he can just imitate miracles and other supernatural events, but they will never be the same as real miracles of God - God’s miracles are miracles per sei, because they tend to violate the framework of what is natural, or what is perceived as a law of nature… Satan is a part of this nature, a part of creation… He cannot create anything new, he can just use the tools he has at his disposal… Categorizing that something is good or evil is a human way of thinking. You may say that a dog is evil because it is barking, but on the other hand, it is doing just what is a part of its nature… The same applies, somehow, to other beings, like angels… But, as it is widely known, as contrary to the dog example above, they, like humans, have a free will… That’s why God cannot be held responsible for evil… Because God is all goodness and there is no darkness in Him… Evil is a result of free will… God treats this ‘gift’ seriously, since he allowed Satan to run his own ways… Humans also have a free will… We can risk saying that free will seems to proove that we cannot achieve salvation by living without God, that He is a fundament of everything… We are too weak to go our own paths… Doing so, it creates conflicts, abuse, and puts ou in error, when we tend to think that our mind can solve every problem… So, God is not responsibl for this… Satan is, but again, only partially… The biggest responsibility of evil around the world belongs to us, humans… Because it is written that Satan has no power over anyone, whatsoever… These are always people that come to him, as Jesus said: "bad things come out of a man’s heart’…

 

[JRKH]

One of the things I was taught to believe while growing up is that Satan can not do anything without God’s permission. I’m not entirely sure what to believe on the matter.This is problematic for a couple of reasons.

One is if Satan cannot act without God’s permission, then would that not make God responsible for all evil?

Two is if Satan can act without God’s permission, then does that not mean God is not omnipotent?

It appears you are looking for an “out” here.
God has placed all things in His order. That order is not made for our understanding.
Included in that order of things is Man’s Free Will.
Satan and Christ can and do provide desires for ill or for Good respectively, but it remains our choice which way we go.

Hence God is not “Responsible”.

Peace
James

 

[JohnJFarren]

JMJ / MMM 080508 Thursday
All you dear people –
The real question here is WHY does God PERMIT evil?

1 – Sin or moral evil is only one kind of evil. There are many evils permitted in human and animals that are physical, genetic, biological, chemical … and there so-called evils in nature like floods and fires and volcanic eruptions, etc. All these evils are permitted by God.

2 – Evils of any kind are not directly Willed by God but are permitted.

3 – And the question at the bottom? WHY does God permit such evils – sometimes profoundly evil. Certainly Aquinas has written about this. Augustine tells us that God would never permit any evil unless He were able to draw a GREATER good from the evil than was the evil an evil. I don’t intend to prove that. I’m sure it could not be proven to everybody. But, you see, now we’re directly involved in matters of faith and hope/trust. And as Christians we are told WE WALK BY FAITH. I don’t mean BLIND faith. God doesn’t want such an empty believing. As Christians we have received the Holy Spirit and so have a “sensing,” a “feeling” in spiritual matters. This together with much “circumstantial evidence” gives us a firm basis for believing that God’s Infinite Love for us permits evils ONLY for our ultimate good – for our Eternal Divine Destiny.

4 – In these matters of faith/hope/trust we must not expect metaphysical certainty. Jacques Maritain, in his monumental work The Degrees of Certainty gives us the very many different levels of knowledge, and their proper objects, and their proper methods of investigation, and their place in a great hierarchy of knowledge. The physical sciences, the natural sciences, have severe limitations, and their lesser place … and few of our scientists either “understand their subject in relation to other knowledge” or “know their proper place.”

Sorry. Gotta go! John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com

 

[tr1954]

One of the things I was taught to believe while growing up is that Satan can not do anything without God’s permission. I’m not entirely sure what to believe on the matter.This is problematic for a couple of reasons.

One is if Satan cannot act without God’s permission, then would that not make God responsible for all evil?

Two is if Satan can act without God’s permission, then does that not mean God is not omnipotent?

I always thought that God is the creator of good and evil…even He says that:

Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.”

biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=45&version=63

 

[fhansen]

I always thought that God is the creator of good and evil…even He says that:

Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.”

biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=45&version=63

The Church teaches that God doesn’t create evil but allows it. Many theologians hold that God cooperates in every act of sin because He cooperates in every human act. We depend on Him entirely: “In Him we live, and move, and have our being.” Acts 17:28
But God doesn’t cause the sin, itself, because sin flows from the free will of man.

 

[tr1954]

The Church teaches that God doesn’t create evil but allows it. Many theologians hold that God cooperates in every act of sin because He cooperates in every human act. We depend on Him entirely: “In Him we live, and move, and have our being.” Acts 17:28
But God doesn’t cause the sin, itself, because sin flows from the free will of man.

Well…someone must have misunderstood God, when he wrote those lines in Isaiah 45;7. Besides…the topic is evil…not sin.

 

[brycelaliberte]

I would say God permits evil because it does not keep us from Him, but can always have the effect of bringing us nearer to Him. It may be a pushing force of us to Him, or even just a reminding force that we are indebted to Him and we don’t deserve anything from God except His apathy.

There is no evil that is greater than the least good that could be done in return.

That, and evil cannot keep us from Him, because He is greater than any evil. An absence of good can always be filled with good.

And eventually I’ll just keep repeating myself in different ways. But you can see what I mean (I think).

 

[fhansen]

Well…someone must have misunderstood God, when he wrote those lines in Isaiah 45;7. Besides…the topic is evil…not sin.

Yes, but sin is defined as moral evil and Isaiah 45:7 is one verse out of thousands. The author probably intends to convey the fact that God allows for and uses evil. The notion of His cooperating with it may appear to be a step closer to creating it but it’s not. What we’re told, in any case, like many posters have said, is that He allows evil for His own purposes, bringing good out of it, but can in no way be responsible for its’ existence.

 

[tr1954]

Yes, but sin is defined as moral evil and Isaiah 45:7 is one verse out of thousands. The author probably intends to convey the fact that God allows for and uses evil. The notion of His cooperating with it may appear to be a step closer to creating it but it’s not. What we’re told, in any case, like many posters have said, is that He allows evil for His own purposes, bringing good out of it, but can in no way be responsible for its’ existence.

I beg to differ on this…God can manipulate events which end up being evil. Case in point …wars. Wars are considered one of the great evils, and creating the circumstances which leads to the evils of war might not even be sinful. Like creating disagreements between nations, which are profound and they lead to wars. Yet those disagreements might not necessarily be evil, but the end result is.

One example of this comes from the Fatima seers. Those kids said that both world wars were the just punishment from God for the sins of men. There, God CREATED evil, and He was indeed responsible for its existence.

 

[JohnJFarren]

JMJ / MMM 080511 Sunday
Hello ribozyme!
I have not seen any of the postings in this topic get to the essence of the answer. Do not be deceived by the apparent simplicity of what I will say here. It’s not very long but if you will think carefully I think something extremely important will become evident.
I am thinking here of all kinds of evil … moral (sin) … physical … natural … mental … emotional … etc. Consider a blind man. Blindness is not some thing that is present. Rather it is the absence of a power normally present in a human being. Blindness is a no-thing, it’s nothing.
An apple. Rotten spot. Not some thing present … but rather health absent. Rottenness is a no-thing, nothing.
Consider a sin. A person commits a murder. What is the essence of the evil here? Where is the absence, the no-thing? There is lacking, missing, a conformity with God’s Will. There is a no-thing in this situation that makes it evil, that makes it a moral evil or sin.
One could continue this with a variety of instances … all of which would express the same thing. Namely, that evil of whatever “kind” is NOT BEING. Rather evil of any kind is a void where a void ought not to be, a lacking where lacking ought not to be, a no-thing where a thing ought to be.
Of course there may be terrible suffering, human, animal, of nature. But this in no way changes the fact that evil IS NOT A THING, is NOT A BEING.
This is not a game of semantics, it’s not toying with ideas. This is a truth that, in itself, is evident. Over time, many years ago, I could see that it was self-evident.
John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com

 

[fhansen]

I beg to differ on this…God can manipulate events which end up being evil. Case in point …wars. Wars are considered one of the great evils, and creating the circumstances which leads to the evils of war might not even be sinful. Like creating disagreements between nations, which are profound and they lead to wars. Yet those disagreements might not necessarily be evil, but the end result is.

One example of this comes from the Fatima seers. Those kids said that both world wars were the just punishment from God for the sins of men. There, God CREATED evil, and He was indeed responsible for its existence.

God is the polar opposite of evil. He’s merciful in that he allows the wheat and tares to grow together for a time, and he utilizes the tares for His own ends, but He does not will the evil to exist or He would no longer be God by Catholic definition. War is not the heart of God but He can allow them to bring about greater good -such as chastisement. And “just punishment from God for the sins of men” can mean we reap what we sow; early death can be considered a just punishment for smoking.

 

[tr1954]

God is the polar opposite of evil. He’s merciful in that he allows the wheat and tares to grow together for a time, and he utilizes the tares for His own ends, but He does not will the evil to exist or He would no longer be God by Catholic definition. War is not the heart of God but He can allow them to bring about greater good -such as chastisement. And “just punishment from God for the sins of men” can mean we reap what we sow; early death can be considered a just punishment for smoking.

I’m pretty sure that Isaiah 45;7 means exactly what it says. But the real question here is…can evil be achieved without malice? it is an interesting question, especially that malice is the principal disposition of the intent, which prompts one to do evil…BUT NOT ALWAYS! It is possible that evil can be achieved without the intent of malice! This was the topic of a movie, entitled “the absence of malice” with Paul Newman…where this very same topic is discussed. It is entirely possible that people do things which are not malicious in themselves, but result in evil. I think that what Isaiah 45:7 says. God can create all good things, without any malice, but they ultimately could lead to evil…call it chastisement if you like…but the end result is evil.

 

[redentor]

satan acts only when God permits it, if not, satan would do more eveil and harm. God’s providence mitigates satan’s work in the world.God is the material cause of evil becuase he gives to his creatures the power to choose and becuase everytime that we have actually abuse this power he creates every moment that actualizes it, that is to say evey instant of event he sustains creation is also sustaining and actualizing or giving existence to every evil that his creatures does.,eg. every sinful thought that i make cannot possibly be actualized if God does not create every succeding moment of that thought. Every unfolding of time and action unfolds because God not only sustains its endurance but becuase he directly and actually creates it. Thus every sinful action is a creation of God. But what makes that act sinfull is the moral dimension that that action is evaluated and this depends on wether that action achieve its proper end. Since the end or purpose of that action depends on our intention and effect, and if that intention do not foolow what that action’s proper end shold have, then the action is sinful, Not that we blame the action but the responsibility is on the doer.

 

[fhansen]

satan acts only when God permits it, if not, satan would do more eveil and harm. God’s providence mitigates satan’s work in the world.God is the material cause of evil becuase he gives to his creatures the power to choose and becuase everytime that we have actually abuse this power he creates every moment that actualizes it, that is to say evey instant of event he sustains creation is also sustaining and actualizing or giving existence to every evil that his creatures does.,eg. every sinful thought that i make cannot possibly be actualized if God does not create every succeding moment of that thought. Every unfolding of time and action unfolds because God not only sustains its endurance but becuase he directly and actually creates it. Thus every sinful action is a creation of God. But what makes that act sinfull is the moral dimension that that action is evaluated and this depends on wether that action achieve its proper end. Since the end or purpose of that action depends on our intention and effect, and if that intention do not foolow what that action’s proper end shold have, then the action is sinful, Not that we blame the action but the responsibility is on the doer.

So can it be said that God creates evil?

 

[Swan]

I’m pretty sure that Isaiah 45;7 means exactly what it says. But the real question here is…can evil be achieved without malice? it is an interesting question, especially that malice is the principal disposition of the intent, which prompts one to do evil…BUT NOT ALWAYS! It is possible that evil can be achieved without the intent of malice! This was the topic of a movie, entitled “the absence of malice” with Paul Newman…where this very same topic is discussed. It is entirely possible that people do things which are not malicious in themselves, but result in evil. I think that what Isaiah 45:7 says. God can create all good things, without any malice, but they ultimately could lead to evil…call it chastisement if you like…but the end result is evil.

But doesn’t this beg the question “what is evil”? If there is no malice then what makes something evil? I’m not trying to be difficult but have been thinking about the concept of evil in recent days. There are some cultures that don’t believe in the concept of evil at all.