Is God Responsible For All Evil?

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Maybe this should be a different thread but:

Why is it so unacceptable that God is evil and source of evil and EVERYTHING, and ALL?

Why must thinking that be avoided. This is one thing i can’t seem to figure out

What is the Catholic perspective, or teaching?
 
Maybe this should be a different thread but:

Why is it so unacceptable that God is evil and source of evil and EVERYTHING, and ALL?

Why must thinking that be avoided. This is one thing i can’t seem to figure out

What is the Catholic perspective, or teaching?
Well, God could be anything He is. The Catholic church believes He’s revealed Himself to have certain characteristics, probably the most significant being that of love, which is pretty fortunate for all of us and which is incompatible with evil.
 
One of the things I was taught to believe while growing up is that Satan can not do anything without God’s permission. I’m not entirely sure what to believe on the matter.This is problematic for a couple of reasons.

One is if Satan cannot act without God’s permission, then would that not make God responsible for all evil?

Two is if Satan can act without God’s permission, then does that not mean God is not omnipotent?
A grain of rice sits on your dinner table.
Picking it up would be very easy for you.

If it remains, that is because you chose not to pick it up, therefore the fact that a grain of rice remains on the table means “you are responsible.”

God chooses not to restrain evil because God works in ways I cannot fathom.

Perhaps He wanted to see how long mankind would allow the offensive grain of rice to remain.

Perhaps He wanted to see who would pick it up (and who would not).

Perhaps He allows evil to continue in this world because what happens in this world is as meaningless as a grain of rice on your table.

What I do know is that God is not powerless against evil anymore than you are powerless against a grain of rice.
 
i don’t get the whole ‘God is mysterious’ answer to whatever people have no answer for.

as for the grain of rice: God is in that grain of rice, he is the very being of that grain, and that grain is totally Gods will

i just think that people have a wrong view of good and evil, that is why this is such a problem in Western religions. other places, different idea, and there is suddenly no God idea that has to be saved from being responsibe for evil.

aren’t there Catholic mystics who have a type of nonduel perspective? what is the Catholic take on the idea that Catholic mystics experience similar stuff as mystics from other traditions?
 
i don’t get the whole ‘God is mysterious’ answer to whatever people have no answer for.

as for the grain of rice: God is in that grain of rice, he is the very being of that grain, and that grain is totally Gods will

i just think that people have a wrong view of good and evil, that is why this is such a problem in Western religions. other places, different idea, and there is suddenly no God idea that has to be saved from being responsibe for evil.

aren’t there Catholic mystics who have a type of nonduel perspective? what is the Catholic take on the idea that Catholic mystics experience similar stuff as mystics from other traditions?
I don’t know about all Catholic mystics but the ones I do know of confirm Church teachings on many things including evil. They were given experiences or glimpses of evil in order to confirm its reality and show them the depths of its depravity in order for them to know more deeply what we’re saved from. Evil is something we’d rather deny, I think, but the Church confronts it.
 
So can it be said that God creates evil?
Yes it can be.!! But this is only materialy speaking, that is, God is the material cause of evil in as much as he is the one who gives us the power of choosing,and in as much as he continously sustains this power everytime we use it wether for good or bad. This latter we call divine concurence (cocursus divinus). which means, God immediately and directly concurs or co-operate in every action that his creatures do wether free or not.
However the formal cause of sin is man. The act itself to transpire is sustained by God, but such act can also be evaluated morally, and if according to moral standards it is immoral, then it is sinful. All acts are created by God by cocuring with the free actions of men, but every free action must be evaluated morally, and the responsible for their moral worth belongs to men. that would depend on the intended end of the action done, and or wether the act itself is directed to its natural end or not.
this is the catholic doctrine…
 
JMJ / MMM 080511 Sunday
Hello ribozyme!
I have not seen any of the postings in this topic get to the essence of the answer. Do not be deceived by the apparent simplicity of what I will say here. It’s not very long but if you will think carefully I think something extremely important will become evident.
I am thinking here of all kinds of evil … moral (sin) … physical … natural … mental … emotional … etc. Consider a blind man. Blindness is not some thing that is present. Rather it is the absence of a power normally present in a human being. Blindness is a no-thing, it’s nothing.
An apple. Rotten spot. Not some thing present … but rather health absent. Rottenness is a no-thing, nothing.
Consider a sin. A person commits a murder. snip…snip…snip…
Perhaps John what you’re trying to say is that evil is the absence of good similar to darkness is the absence of light.
Gerry
 
Let’s talk about a vile case:
A kidnapper slips into your child’s room at night and takes your child.
  1. Did God cause this?
  2. Did God allow this?
  3. Could God have prevented this?
  4. Why didn’t God prevent this?
  5. How far do carry the question of will God allow evil just to teach us a lesson?
Let’s also bear in mind that the story of Job had casulties, Job’s first set of children all died. If you ask Job about it you might get a different answer than one of the children.

My answers are
  1. Did God cause this? no
  2. Did God allow this? yes
  3. Could God have prevented this? of course
  4. Why didn’t God prevent this? He is God, He is answerable to no one.
  5. How far do carry the question of will God allow evil just to teach us a lesson? God is God. Just because you don’t understand Him doesn’t mean his actions are at the least bit evil. We look at this in the here and now. God looks at things in terms of infinity and the best thing for all people.
I will not bore you with Hitler, Stalin illustrations. But if there was no evil in the world, how would you learn to appreciate the good? Also, when we face evil aren’t we more likely to turn to God in our need? Isn’t that the crux? When all is good we are less likely to be grateful.
 
i don’t get the whole ‘God is mysterious’ answer to whatever people have no answer for.

as for the grain of rice: God is in that grain of rice, he is the very being of that grain, and that grain is totally Gods will

i just think that people have a wrong view of good and evil, that is why this is such a problem in Western religions. other places, different idea, and there is suddenly no God idea that has to be saved from being responsibe for evil.

aren’t there Catholic mystics who have a type of nonduel perspective? what is the Catholic take on the idea that Catholic mystics experience similar stuff as mystics from other traditions?
Saying “God is mysterious” is not a cop out,
And no, God is not “in that grain of rice” in the analogy I was attempting to draw a grain of rice or other speck of food left on your table is analogous to an earthly evil.

I do not believe that God causes earthly evils or wants earthly evils any more than you want crumbs on your table

If a single speck of food fallen on your table does that mean you want it there?
Of course not.

Does it mean you are powerless to wipe the table?
Of course not.

In the same manner God is not “here” to fix earthly evils any more than he is here to wipe up your table. God is not our maid.

He existed before earth and before earthly evils. whatever his “purpose” is it NOT that of robomaid, going around the earth fixing earthly evils

The existence of earthly evil therefore does not mean God wants evil, or is powerless to stop evil etc. It means that we are insignificant compared to Him.
 
Let’s talk about a vile case:
A kidnapper slips into your child’s room at night and takes your child.
  1. Did God cause this?
  2. Did God allow this?
  3. Could God have prevented this?
  4. Why didn’t God prevent this?
  5. How far do carry the question of will God allow evil just to teach us a lesson?
Let’s also bear in mind that the story of Job had casulties, Job’s first set of children all died. If you ask Job about it you might get a different answer than one of the children.

My answers are
  1. Did God cause this? no
  2. Did God allow this? yes
  3. Could God have prevented this? of course
  4. Why didn’t God prevent this? He is God, He is answerable to no one.
  5. How far do carry the question of will God allow evil just to teach us a lesson? God is God. Just because you don’t understand Him doesn’t mean his actions are at the least bit evil. We look at this in the here and now. God looks at things in terms of infinity and the best thing for all people.
I will not bore you with Hitler, Stalin illustrations. But if there was no evil in the world, how would you learn to appreciate the good? Also, when we face evil aren’t we more likely to turn to God in our need? Isn’t that the crux? When all is good we are less likely to be grateful.
that’s 100% correct.

Many assume
1.) They know what God’s job decription reads
2.) God’s job is to intevene on earth and end earthly evil.

They thus surmise that
3.) Because earthly evil still exists God is shirking his duties,or is unable to perform them or just plain does not exist.

The assumptions are wrong on all counts.
 
Yes it can be.!! But this is only materialy speaking, that is, God is the material cause of evil in as much as he is the one who gives us the power of choosing,and in as much as he continously sustains this power everytime we use it wether for good or bad. This latter we call divine concurence (cocursus divinus). which means, God immediately and directly concurs or co-operate in every action that his creatures do wether free or not.
However the formal cause of sin is man. The act itself to transpire is sustained by God, but such act can also be evaluated morally, and if according to moral standards it is immoral, then it is sinful. All acts are created by God by cocuring with the free actions of men, but every free action must be evaluated morally, and the responsible for their moral worth belongs to men. that would depend on the intended end of the action done, and or wether the act itself is directed to its natural end or not.
this is the catholic doctrine…
redentor and tr1954, you’ve both got me thinking more about this.

It amazes me just how radically free man is and how deep into depravity he can sink by virtue of that freedom and how people can’t seem to grasp that evil is real-and that it’s an offense which wasn’t meant to be.

This sums up some of my basic beliefs on this topic but if evil was never meant to be, then it seems that God couldn’t will it. I think I understand how God can be said to cooperate in evil by being the material cause of every action. It could be said that He provides all the means necessary for an evil act to take place by creating all the ingredients for it and allowing and sustaining those ingredients in and through the act.

But does He hate evil or does He create it? Or are those two possibilities inherently mutually exclusive? Does He will war to happen in order to bring a greater good out of it or does He allow it to happen for that purpose? Likewise did He will the fall or did He allow it? He certainly foresaw it prior to creation. In Exodus, did God harden Pharaohs’ heart or did He just know Pharaohs’ heart would harden?

It makes me think that the fall was a necessity in His mind, a part of His plan.

The existence of evil can make us feel insignificant. In fact, that’s its purpose-to oppose, degrade, tear down and destroy the good God created. And like Long Island Bob said, we’re insignificant compared to God. But I don’t believe for a moment that we’re insignificant to Him even though these ideas are all difficult to reconcile.

From our Catholic perspective, I guess it still goes back to the issue of wills. It seems that God wills that *our *wills supercede His for now; apparently so we’ll learn from the devastating results that His will really should be done-and so supercede ours.
 
Saying “God is mysterious” is not a cop out,
And no, God is not “in that grain of rice” in the analogy I was attempting to draw a grain of rice or other speck of food left on your table is analogous to an earthly evil.

I do not believe that God causes earthly evils or wants earthly evils any more than you want crumbs on your table

If a single speck of food fallen on your table does that mean you want it there?
Of course not.

Does it mean you are powerless to wipe the table?
Of course not.

In the same manner God is not “here” to fix earthly evils any more than he is here to wipe up your table. God is not our maid.

He existed before earth and before earthly evils. whatever his “purpose” is it NOT that of robomaid, going around the earth fixing earthly evils

The existence of earthly evil therefore does not mean God wants evil, or is powerless to stop evil etc. It means that we are insignificant compared to Him.
I meant that God is in evil, like a force behind the desire and hate of an animal that wants to tear my flesh off. That is real, not illusionary (it is relative evil but it is ruthless) and God has EVERYTHING to do with it.

To shy away from Gods total power makes him just a little bit foreign. A little less God. There will always be a trade off. I mean, by saving God from responsibility, Christians have a Satan empowered with divinity. God intended everything to happen, and Satan did Gods most important work, making the world as it is.

If Christians were to believe all this, what would be wrong? How would the rest of the religion change. Other religions can handle such stuff. Is this an absolute fundamental essential matter that cannot change at all?
 
I WILL ANSWER THIS QUESTION FOR YOU ONCE AND FOR ALL!

This question is answered by addressing the one most overall, most fundamental law that God uses His Wisdom to govern His Creation with. Knowing the answer to this question is irrevalent to you living a life pleasing to God, dying in His Grace and existing forever in a state that is beyond perfection, generally speaking. However, it is a part of wisdom and other than the law of existence/nonexistence (the Creation itself) it is the greatest law that governs Creation. The 3rd greatest law within Creation, just to give you a better picure of the scope of what you are asking is purpose and destiny. This is by looking at Creation from a perspective that make it easy to understand. However, from God’s “point of view” all things are simply one, in the sense that all things are His Will. That is the best way to describe Creation for us to understand it. But, ultimately even His Will, from God’s “viewpoint” is simply Him. To go into all of that is another story, but I must start my answer like this just to create perspective.

From God’s point of view (which we must be in alignment with, if we are able, to understand truth), ultimately, in the greatest, most proper sense, there is no such thing as good and evil. He recognizes that we use these terms so He may address them to us, because doing so is consistent with our purpose. 99.99999% of the time a person says good and evil, good and evil simply means what that person’s opinion of good and evil is. Take a look at what you see good and evil as being, analyse it and I guarantee that if you look at the ultimate qualifier of your definition, it will be “your opinion, unless you have answered as is illustrated as follows.”

This is what good and evil is (this will answer your question about is God responsible) - The force that most powerfully determines the ultimate meaning and state of anything that exists/and doesn’t exist, for that matter is not good and evil, per say, it is God’s Grace or Lack of God’s Grace. Now the question comes, how do you define the Lack of God’s Grace. This is the definition of the Lack of God’s Grace - The Omnipotent Alignment of an Entity into Conforment With God’s Will AGAINST the Entity’s Will. This is necessary, because within God’s Purpose, this gives God full Glory by manifesting the fact that IN SPITE of the entity, God’s Will Prevails, Nontheless. Evil (Lack of God’s Grace) exists on two levels. Level One is actually protected within/overpowered by His Grace and is therefore really apart of His Grace. Level Two is the eternal testament to glorify God, by eternally testifying to the fact that inspite of an entity’s will, it’s will will still forceably be in alignment with God’s Will. This is called God’s Wrath. God’s Wrath, infinitely exceeds the most dreadful, terrible description of evil that anyone could ever come up with. The expression of God’s Wrath is the result of being in a state of emnity with God because, your will didn’t willingly come into alignment with His. Therefore, the entity recieves something that is worse than infinite hatred and infinite malevolence from God. What the will of that entity receives is a degree that is beyond infinite of exactly would that will would not will upon itself as the ultimate expression to the fact that God Prevails regardless of the total sum meaning of that entity which refused to willingly align with God, even though God gave the entity the will in the first place! The reason that happens is because it is a part of the final expression of perfection within creation! Why, because perfection within creation is simply the fact that all creation is only created to glorify God in a way that is relative to what the created entity is!

To finish and make absolute (within relative necessity) the meaning of Good vs Evil or God’s Grace vs God’s Emnity is a consequential result of the fact that for all entities that God judges to have a will that is great enough to have the potential of consciently becoming in alignment with His Will, is God’s Challenge to that will! God’s Challenge (or test, if you will) governs all good and evil, God’s Grace or God’s Emnity. So really what exists is God’s Challenge! Good or Evil, is a result of how your will responds to God’s Challenge!

The answer to is God Responsible For All Evil is Yes and No, depending on the level at which you’re asking the question. From the Ultimate Point of View, Yes God is Responsible For All Evil (He is the Ultimate Cause of His Lack of Grace, whenever, wherever that may be.) Also, God created all that is in the first place, so the choice that enables evil and the result is God’s Will, for that to be the reality! However, God does not wrong any of His Creatures. Why, because on the other level the answer is no, God is not responsible, because we had a choice. If we made the evil choice, then we failed to align our will to God’s will, willingly, therefore we fail God’s challenge, and therefore the responsibility is forced upon us, because this is what we owe God for creating us! Life isn’t free, live costs us to align our will with God’s Will, willingly, in a way that is absolute. God recognizes our flaws and therefore, even if we fall short when doing our best to do this, He is the judge of if we actually did align our Will, with His Will, willingly or not! Of course He’s Merciful and Forgiving, but the ultimate question that He judges us by is was our will willingly in alignment with His.

To get more explicit - God’s Challenge is the eternal identity of you will be determined by the culmination of the meaning of your self. This is determined by the culmination of the meaning of your will. Your will is the sum total of your meaning. This is the meaning of life. To determine who you are eternally, as a result of the culmination of the meaning of your will.

The best way to describe everything that we experience in life in terms of good vs evil is this God’s Grace vs a Sign of God’s Wrath. Really in life there is no definite evil (level one evil or level one Lack of Grace), unless it is tied into God’s Wrath (level two). Level one evil/Lack of Grace therefore can result in level 2 evil (Wrath) or good (Grace). Level one evil is anything that can cause a negative consequence in life. This could be pain (great or small), stealing, murder, discomfort, failure of that which is worthwhile, hatred, calamities, nuclear weapons used or not, etc. In and of themselves, none of them are a definite evil or a definite lack of God’s Grace. What they are is a sign of evil or a sign of the lack of God’s Grace. Not a sign that it is a mandatory consequence, but a sign that the Lack of God’s Grace is a reality. These incidents are allowed by God to Challenge our will. The result of what they are is determined by the culmination of our will in life. Say for instance, I bumped my head so hard it started bleeding, my family was killed, or my entire leg was blown off. For me to be in complete accurate truth and my will willingly aligned with God’s Will, as hurt as I may be, it would be proper for me to say, that was God’s will, it is a challenge to my will and a reminder to the fact that God’s lack of Grace is real, even though that may seem to be a lack of grace to me at the time, and it very well be if that moment were isolated and was all that existed, however if I accept it as God’s Will then it really will conclude in being Grace, because in eternity all that was less than fortunate in the world will be consumed by God’s Grace, because the Blessing that your will recieves in God’s Eternal Grace is infinite, at the least, and therefore, consumes and absolutely overrides anything that was level one evil in the world. However, if those acts were committed by a person and God does not forgive that person, then, that person is consumed by level 2 evil (God’s Wrath) and the sign that existed in life of the evil is a precurser to the greater evil. If it were an earthquake or even nuclear bomb that killed people, then level 2 evil is instant for those killed whose will was not aligned willingly with God, but God’s Grace is the result for those killed whose will is willingly aligned with God’s…

Finally, an argument can be made, well God is evil (wrong) for allowing Lack of His Grace in the first place. Not! Because, all things must be kept in perspective to understand the truth! If God wanted, all that existed could have been His Wrath and no such thing as His Grace! All of Creation could have been created in His Wrath, period, the end, against the will of all things! This could be reality right now, just as easily as what is reality right now, and not a soul could make a difference! You could argue, true, but His Grace could also been all that existed too! True, but the answer of the meaning of that lies in our identity! Our purpose. It goes back to the reality of responsibility, in reference to our identities! It is not a question of God being right or wrong (in the Ultimate sense God is neither right or wrong, good or evil, in the ultimate sense, God is just the Uncreated God, that is beyond the definition of any created attribute). Therefore, in the end, the final question to describe truth is what is your identity? It is the identity that will determine the relevance of the meaning of the truth that exists in creation, for the particular, specific soul in question…
 
JMJ / MMM 080521 Wednesday
Hello Gerry –
You recognized the heart of the entire “evil” matter … that darkness is the absence of light – THAT EVIL IS THE ABSENCE OF GOOD WHERE GOOD OUGHT TO BE.

Well, more words and we walk away from the heart of the thing.

So … I stop. And a Blessing to you, Gerry.
John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com
 
JMJ / MMM 080521 Wednesday
Dear Gerry and Everybody –
Generally I am OPPOSED to lengthy quotations. Nobody reads them … well, almost nobody. But this one is very, very different. I am approaching 78 years of age … and in all those years I have never encountered a more lucid, complete, or downright EXCITING explanation. I urge each of us to read carefully the following quotation by Jacques Maritain –

“If we do not wish to spoil everything in the question of God and the permission of evil, we must from the beginning set down a principle which is like a beacon illuminating the whole debate: this is the principle of the dissymmetry, the fundamental, irreducible dissymmetry, between the line of good and the line of evil.​

“Ens et bonum convertuntur. The good is being, and plenitude or completion of being. When we reason in the line of good, we reason in the line of being, of that which exercises being or bears being to its accomplishment.​

“Evil, on the contrary, of itself or insofar as evil, is absence of being, privation of being or of good. It is a nothingness that corrodes being. When we reason in the line of evil, we reason in the ling of non-being, for evil is in nowise being; evil is only a vacuum or a lack of being, a nothingness and a privation.​

“It follows, then, with absolute necessity that there will be a dissymmetry between our manner of looking at and explaining things in the perspective of good and our manner of looking at and explaining things in the perspective of evil.​

“It is a radical mistake to make use, in order to explain things in the line of evil, of types of explanation by which we explain and must explain things in the line of good.​

…………… To deny or shake the two truths concerning the line of good which I have just mentioned is very serious – it is to meddle with something sacred, the divine aseity.​

“To deny or shake the two truths concerning the line of evil which I have mentioned is likewise serious, and it is likewise to meddle with something sacred: the absolute innocence of God…” God and the Permission of Evil, by Jacques Maritain, Bruce Pub Co, Milwaukee (company no longer exists), 1965 … Pages 9-11 … Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 66-17003. The book, thin and a treasure can be gotten easily from Alibris Books.​

And a Blessing for all of you … and for me too!​

John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com
 
that is very interesting, i remember reading a book by Maritain, i think it had something to do with the Church and that concept of the Church, (there is a -ology for it) it was very illuminating. it is hard to think of any institution being sacred in any way.

but as for this issue, with such metaphysical depth, why talk of evil at all? Buddhists have the idea of Two Truths, ultimate and conventional, and when speaking of them you cannot confuse them or “deny or shake” them. but why do Westerns call nothingness evil, and why give it such a radical perversion as the devil, satan, and all. that which does not exist in other cultures–i mean not in the full blown Exorcist way.

what would light be without dark, the note without the interval. but if God is aseitic then we should refrain from calling him good in case that is profaned by thinking he is not beyond good and evil. revelation may have given you permission to use some words about creatures for the creator but i don’t think it is enough. i think there are even better words and i have not found them in the Bible. i hope God is far beyond and greater, he can’t not be
 
One of the things I was taught to believe while growing up is that Satan can not do anything without God’s permission. I’m not entirely sure what to believe on the matter.This is problematic for a couple of reasons.

One is if Satan cannot act without God’s permission, then would that not make God responsible for all evil?

Two is if Satan can act without God’s permission, then does that not mean God is not omnipotent?
God gives all created beings free will. He allows angels and humans to make a choice; either for Him or against Him. How does that make God not omnipotent? It seems as clear as anything to me that God is in charge of everything!
 
God gave His cratures free will because without free will love cannot exist - so it seems He had no choice… Real love comes only with a free will…
 
Does it make sense to speculate about why God does this or that as if he were some planner, some petty technocrat and dictator and architect of the world.

aren’t there far more profound visions of God. this world is an expression of his being, it is grown out of him, breathed out and dreamed out his thought, it is his desire, it is inside him, and he is like the background space in which this world plays out. free will makes perfect sense and evil is a bad dream or a bad actor in Gods play

i don’t think any of this conflicts with the seriousness of the issues, and isn’t everything easy with God anyway, and without God isn’t everything more serious and fearful and terrible?

or is it sinful to have such divine pride that one thinks they can have God and not fear, and be familiar as a lover, and in spite of anything believe that the beloved can do no wrong
 
Does it make sense to speculate about why God does this or that as if he were some planner, some petty technocrat and dictator and architect of the world.

aren’t there far more profound visions of God. this world is an expression of his being, it is grown out of him, breathed out and dreamed out his thought, it is his desire, it is inside him, and he is like the background space in which this world plays out. free will makes perfect sense and evil is a bad dream or a bad actor in Gods play

i don’t think any of this conflicts with the seriousness of the issues, and isn’t everything easy with God anyway, and without God isn’t everything more serious and fearful and terrible?

or is it sinful to have such divine pride that one thinks they can have God and not fear, and be familiar as a lover, and in spite of anything believe that the beloved can do no wrong
 
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